"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

I think at least Gohan and Piccolo should be cultivated as additions since they do have the precedent and potential for it.

At this point I think it's far too late for them to be included in anything besides side plots, such as the fight with Moro's men. With Goku becoming Whis' full time student, and the latest chapter teasing Vegeta becoming Beerus', I don't think there's any room for them in the main plot.

[Koitsukai]

I think the side characters such as Gohan no longer have any room in the show, to be fair they are not given room, not that they are lacking anything.
The ToP provided a great opportunity for Gohan to shine and he... well, his big fight was off screen. That should be eloquent enough.
It's not good or bad on itself but when he had his moment, it wasn't shown, why would we expect more Gohan from Toyo?

[Matches Malone]

The ToP provided a great opportunity for Gohan to shine and he... well, his big fight was off screen. That should be eloquent enough.
It's not good or bad on itself but when he had his moment, it wasn't shown, why would we expect more Gohan from Toyo?

He wasn't treated much better in the anime, as he had to ring himself out in order to take down Dyspo with him.

[Lionel]

Those characters would have to be properly developed and incorporated into the narrative.

For aforementioned reasons, Broly potentially could be. While I wouldn't personally agree that he's "stale" as he's largely unexplored, his ties to Freeza are nonetheless cause enough to organically introduce him to the plot without making his inclusion feel forced. If they don't include him, that's also fine!

To be clear, none of the supports need to be "permanent" in the sense that they're just haphazardly thrown in every subsequent arc without regard for their own relevance in that story. Arbitrarily shoehorning the Universe 6 Saiyans or Hit/Jiren is just as unnecessary as doing the same for the Earthlings; the beauty of mainline Dragon Ball, particularly the original run, is its willingness to revolve its cast with newer additions as the series progresses, but more importantly in ways that don't bloat the intended narrative with retired or arc-irrelevant ancillary characters.

Writers should always tell the stories they want to tell without being beholden to a particular subset of fans (or fanboys, to be more precise). This isn't necessarily aimed at yourself, but routinely criticizing Toriyama or Toyotaro because they decided to exclude somebody's favorite side piece is a bad faith expectation. All stories should be judged on their own merits.

Personally, I think at least Gohan and Piccolo should be cultivated as additions since they do have the precedent and potential for it.

I think there's a right way and wrong way to do it, provided the writers want to cultivate them (in my view, GPP was the wrong way), but I don't believe Gohan and Piccolo are necessarily entitled to be cultivated. It really depends on the needs of the narrative.

Mainly, I just feel like there's more you can do from a development standpoint with newer characters than with older ones. That's not to say there aren't exceptions though.

Broly's relationship with Freeza aside -- a dynamic that bears some similiarity to Vegeta's own history with the tyrant -- the iconic qualities fans associate with him don't bear much in distinguishing him from Goku and Vegeta. Yes, he's a born and bred abomination of nigh fathomless power, but the root of his strength's qualities resembles the aforementioned two, minus the humanised Oozaru state and lack of god ki. I myself can't find the appeal behind him as a character except for reasons expressed by other users with respect to his familiarity and iconicity in Dragon Ball stardom. It's the potential subversion of his trademark berserker persona that I think would be the most interesting element to his continued appearance.

I think in the case of Gohan it wouldn't hurt to offer a compromise with some type of continuance as a inner circle figure given the constant foreshadowing of his own power and character in the original Z manga which has been extended into Super if only in a passing manner with the occasional quote about his potential or his feeling lack of adequacy in being able to defend the world. Piccolo has been getting reincorporated to some degree since the Champa arc. Between the manga and the anime elements of the Namekian mythos have been introduced which could hold some relevancy to Piccolo. I think he was even acknowledged by Champa and Vados for being unusual at some point so his exceptionalism isn't unfounded in Super.

[LightBing]

This was a proper start of an arc. Best first chapter of the Super Era.

The new villain/ally/antagonist is the focus with proper background, motivations and current trajectory. We seamlessly jump to the secondary story of the Saiyans training.
Like per usual in Dragon Ball, turns out the ultimate technique isn't actually that ultimate. Which is fine, at least it's "levels" and not new transformations.

We're given further progression of Vegeta's branching path from Goku, which was announced in the ToP.
I'm really excited for Beerus-sensei, he would never do this in a million years if Goku wasn't constantly screw him, he's doing it just to spite Goku.

Perhaps Freeza will be back, hopefully. Since this is also about the Saiyans maybe Broly as well.

[TKA]

1. Because when Toriyama designs a silly fat man with a Santa beard, clearly “imposing” was what he had in mind.

Look, this shit is subjective, but I will say there’s nothing that’s more un-Toriyama than a villain getting jacked, with an edgy aura, saying edgy lines and it not being played for a joke. That’s boring Toei movie or filler villain shit. Because they’re bad writers, the only way they can write villains is for them to be “imposing”. What you call imposing I call an eyeroll.

2. Appeal to popularity is pointless to ever use in any kind of discussion with me, my dude.

actually in the course of a character can change appearance and personality due to its development in the plot


So current broly must be very edgy then because of the marks and full of muscles but in the end it is your opinion personally I think that due to his change in attitude at that time it made sense besides that he showed why he was a potential hakaishin

I say it about popularity because ... it could even appear in the manga because the public likes it. It is not the first time that "broly" has happened.

I read all of that.

Nothing you said counters anything I said. You were just rambling incoherently. But let me try to address what you typed anyway. Again, this is all subjective, but here we go.

Buu doesn't work for what you're trying to argue in relation to what I said. Buu is the most goofy villain since Pilaf. He is a far cry from Janemba, or Hildegarn, or Android 13, or whichever other filler/movie villain Toei makes to be "imposing". The writing behind him is why Buu is imposing or threatening. In fact, when first revealed even the characters are mocking him about how silly he looks, but Toriyama's brilliant writing quickly made his childish innocence more terrifying than any of the aforementioned Toei villains.

Fuck, you can look at the difference between Demigra's goofy ass designs in Xenoverse 1, vs his edgy srs designs in Heroes. That's the difference between understanding Toriyama's aesthetic and not.

As for Broly, the most obvious way to understand the point is by comparing him to the original Broly. When DBS Broly transforms, gets jacked and goes berserk, it's a tragedy. The story plays it as a tragedy, the characters think of it as a tragedy and the tone of the show treats it like a tragedy. Him being imposing is not the objective of the writing. Original Broly, on the other hand, hulks out and there's epic music, and he's dropping edgy one-liners about how he's the devil, and "he's just SO FUCKEN COOL". The objective of the writers is for you to think he's imposing, frightening and cool or whatever. Again, the difference between understanding Toriyama's aesthetic and not.

The Broly that we have now is so different from the original Broly that they may as well be wholly different characters (and they are; just ask FighterZ). If Toyotaro wants to introduce a GoD transformation, more power to him. Just don't have it be the shitty one from the anime because it goes against everything Toriyama designs and just looks ugly as shit, which again, was my original point.

[Koitsukai]

The ToP provided a great opportunity for Gohan to shine and he... well, his big fight was off screen. That should be eloquent enough.
It's not good or bad on itself but when he had his moment, it wasn't shown, why would we expect more Gohan from Toyo?

He wasn't treated much better in the anime, as he had to ring himself out in order to take down Dyspo with him.

But you saw that, you didn't have to imagine how that fight went about.

[Yuji]

He is a far cry from Janemba, or Hildegarn, or Android 13, or whichever other filler/movie villain Toei makes to be "imposing".

Just to nitpick, Toriyama designed #13 and finalized the Janemba design.

[marumuju]

The latest chapter is pretty nice! Good motives and Granola’s eye promises interesting fights.

The only thing I’m wondering, is the Saiyan Oozaru in Granola’s flashback Bardock? The ape has about the same scar as him. That might bring about a feud or two with Goku later on

[FortuneSSJ]

I'm curious about how the Dragon Balls will be used in this arc.

The heeters will most likely learn about them when talking to Zuno and then it will be just a matter of time until Granolah knows too. Will the heeters have a wish on their own? Or will they use them to manipulate Granolah, who may want to revive his race?

Whatever the role the DBs play, I would like the final battle to take place anywhere but Earth or Namek. On Planet Cereal for example, it would be be great.

As for Freeza's current power level, there's nothing forbidding Toriyama from giving him a new form.

[DiscountDabi]

I'm curious about how the Dragon Balls will be used in this arc.

The heeters will most likely learn about them when talking to Zuno and then it will be just a matter of time until Granolah knows too. Will the heeters have a wish on their own? Or will they use them to manipulate Granolah, who may want to revive his race?

So I've already been wrong about the dragon balls once this week so I'm being careful this time. From what I remember the Dragon Balls on Both Earth and Namek have a limit that when ressurecting large groups of people they can only bring back people that died within a year of time. That only applies to large groups of people so I would assume he wouldn't be able to wish for that unless he used the Super Dragon Balls.

I do belive I would need more flashbacks to Granolah's Life on Planet Cereal to have any kind of positive responce to bringing them back besides "Yeah he got what he wanted" so we'll have to wait on that.

[Tai Lung]

I read all of that.
Nothing you said counters anything I said. You were just rambling incoherently. But let me try to address what you typed anyway. Again, this is all subjective, but here we go.

Buu doesn't work for what you're trying to argue in relation to what I said. Buu is the most goofy villain since Pilaf. He is a far cry from Janemba, or Hildegarn, or Android 13, or whichever other filler/movie villain Toei makes to be "imposing". The writing behind him is why Buu is imposing or threatening. In fact, when first revealed even the characters are mocking him about how silly he looks, but Toriyama's brilliant writing quickly made his childish innocence more terrifying than any of the aforementioned Toei villains.

Fuck, you can look at the difference between Demigra's goofy ass designs in Xenoverse 1, vs his edgy srs designs in Heroes. That's the difference between understanding Toriyama's aesthetic and not.

As for Broly, the most obvious way to understand the point is by comparing him to the original Broly. When DBS Broly transforms, gets jacked and goes berserk, it's a tragedy. The story plays it as a tragedy, the characters think of it as a tragedy and the tone of the show treats it like a tragedy. Him being imposing is not the objective of the writing. Original Broly, on the other hand, hulks out and there's epic music, and he's dropping edgy one-liners about how he's the devil, and "he's just SO FUCKEN COOL". The objective of the writers is for you to think he's imposing, frightening and cool or whatever. Again, the difference between understanding Toriyama's aesthetic and not.

The Broly that we have now is so different from the original Broly that they may as well be wholly different characters (and they are; just ask FighterZ). If Toyotaro wants to introduce a GoD transformation, more power to him. Just don't have it be the shitty one from the anime because it goes against everything Toriyama designs and just looks ugly as shit, which again, was my original point.

one of them was designed by the author and janemba is a character that toriyama would have liked to do according to his own words
threatening perhaps but not so much compared to other villains we have seen ... as certainly frieza and cell did at the time ... outside of some threatening moments these
disappear once he meet mr satan

if I go that logic toppo is threatening because of his power but it is overshadowed by jiren ... at least his hakaishin moments allow him to have his threatening moments ... and this at least was part of the plot if you consider that he is a candidate for hakaishin

[Yuji]

On the topic of Piccolo, if Toyotarou chooses to integrate the character into this story, I hope he improves his character writing. Piccolo felt distinctly "off" last arc: being outsmarted by the Macareni gang, caught off-guard by OG73-I after being warned by Jaco a few minutes prior, and his speech characterizing Vegeta. While Piccolo in the original series always was hilariously a bit of a klutz and numb-skull, all of this still feels at odds with his modern characterization, which has leaned farther into his title as a "tactician" (as displaced as it may be).

[Koitsukai]

On the topic of Piccolo, if Toyotarou chooses to integrate the character into this story, I hope he improves his character writing. Piccolo felt distinctly "off" last arc: being outsmarted by the Macareni gang, caught off-guard by OG73-I after being warned by Jaco a few minutes prior, and his speech characterizing Vegeta. While Piccolo in the original series always was hilariously a bit of a klutz and numb-skull, all of this still feels at odds with his modern characterization, which has leaned farther into his title as a "tactician" (as displaced as it may be).

Let me add to your post that the Macareni Brothers stuff could've been defused without repercussions if Dende used his psychic abilities to inform Piccolo about them instead of flying to where Piccolo was, on Bulma's ship. Characters did several questionable things just so that the plot could move forward

[The Undying]

I myself can't find the appeal behind him as a character except for reasons expressed by other users with respect to his familiarity and iconicity in Dragon Ball stardom. It's the potential subversion of his trademark berserker persona that I think would be the most interesting element to his continued appearance.

I'd say it's exactly Toriyama's own subversion of Broly's "iconicity" in the film (via its tragic tone) that makes him an interesting character compared to his Movie 8 counterpart, but to each his own. My point was more that both Broly's status as a Saiyan and possible status as Freeza's underling are solid avenues for connecting his own relevancy to Granolah's story in a thematically appropriate way.

None of the ancillary characters (including Broly) are obligatory per se, but necessitating their inclusion depends wholly on how well they can relate to the central throughline. That's a bit easier said than done when it comes to the Earthling cast for this arc specifically, I think, but we'll see what happens.

All I ask is that nobody feels tacked on.

[FortuneSSJ]

I'm curious about how the Dragon Balls will be used in this arc.

The heeters will most likely learn about them when talking to Zuno and then it will be just a matter of time until Granolah knows too. Will the heeters have a wish on their own? Or will they use them to manipulate Granolah, who may want to revive his race?

So I've already been wrong about the dragon balls once this week so I'm being careful this time. From what I remember the Dragon Balls on Both Earth and Namek have a limit that when ressurecting large groups of people they can only bring back people that died within a year of time. That only applies to large groups of people so I would assume he wouldn't be able to wish for that unless he used the Super Dragon Balls.

I do belive I would need more flashbacks to Granolah's Life on Planet Cereal to have any kind of positive responce to bringing them back besides "Yeah he got what he wanted" so we'll have to wait on that.

To be honest, I'm also not sure how the DBs rules are right now. Sometimes Shenlong just grants one wish and goes away.
I just go with the flow at this point.

[Kagari]

I think at least Gohan and Piccolo should be cultivated as additions since they do have the precedent and potential for it.

At this point I think it's far too late for them to be included in anything besides side plots, such as the fight with Moro's men. With Goku becoming Whis' full time student, and the latest chapter teasing Vegeta becoming Beerus', I don't think there's any room for them in the main plot.

It's really not, the only limitations are the imaginations of the writers. Vegeta is kept around but you could say his story was done and gone ages ago too. Given Toyotaro tends to like using those two characters specifically, they will be back around. His Gohan is one of the few characters that isn't being poorly written and he's often shown as an even more competent fighter than Goku with his team ups and range of abilities.

The ToP provided a great opportunity for Gohan to shine and he... well, his big fight was off screen. That should be eloquent enough.
It's not good or bad on itself but when he had his moment, it wasn't shown, why would we expect more Gohan from Toyo?

He wasn't treated much better in the anime, as he had to ring himself out in order to take down Dyspo with him.

He had the most screen time after Goku in the anime for the entire 54 episode arc and was active entirely up until his elimination in which he formed a plan to order Freeza of all people around to take out a problematic member of the opponent's team. Even Piccolo says letting Dyspo free would have disrupted everything and he'd almost eliminated Golden Freeza.

Besides, there's already a VJump ad floating around teasing a big conflict for 'Goku and Earth's warriors' so it's within reason they will be involved again.

[batistabus]

I don't know if this is literally true, but it feels like Toyotaro Uchida are convincing Toriyama to give the side characters more screen time. I think he's out of ideas for most of these "legacy" characters. Whenever these characters do something, we can almost certainly say Toyotaro or Toei is coming up with it. Their participation in RoF was left to the animators. Few of them are involved in the Future Trunks arc. Toriyama only got involved writing for No.18 in the ToP when he decided to step in to correct Toyotaro. They're not around in Broly. It's safe to assume that Toyo was responsible for their involvement in the GPP arc.

As a fan, Toyotaro wants to see more of all of the characters. DB Room knows fans want it, knows it can be used to pad the story, and probably thinks it helps build the brand behind these other characters.

I think that's harmless enough. Nothing's bad, and there are some moments that stand out. Still, it's not as thoughtful or juicy as what we see from Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and any of the main new/guest characters. If things stay as they have been, that's fine. I do hope more time is put into these side characters, or at least that Toriyama contributes more.

Perhaps equally important is the thought put into their opponents. It's hard to get invested in a fight between Kuririn vs a Freeza soldier, universal fodder, or a Galactic prisoner. But unless these B plots get a lot more TLC, the longer they drag on, the bigger the detriment to the arc overall.

The anime's Universal Survival Arc is a prime example of how not to do it. Adding a "backstory" to fodder doesn't make the fight any more compelling. It's not worty of Dragon Ball without solid comedy, subversion, or general Toriyama weirdness. The manga's ToP treated the fodder like fodder. Many eliminations are quick beats, which may not be amazing individually, but jives well with the rest of the story.

As for the Heatas, I'm interested in Elec and Gas so far. Hopefully they continue to be compelling, and hopefully Maki and Oil can at least play better within their dynamic.

[Lionel]

If there is an interest and desire for Broly then that's the fans' perogative. I don't care personally for him but to each their own.

Batistabus: It's funny you should mention the preceding skirmishes amongst the grunts. I enjoyed the cooperative effort with Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, and the cyborgs against Moro more than the actual climax with Ultra Instinct mastered. It demonstrated greater initiative and collaborative ingenuity with an ambiance of fierce desperation in having their backs to the wall that I feel was lost with Goku predictably, though understandably, learning to tap into his lastest "non" transformation state and then proceeding to humiliate the antagonist. The fight with Seven-Three was dynamically similar and enjoyable, though it lacked intensity of the Z-Warriors being on their last legs as they were actually in a good position throughout the fight.

[Kagari]

I don't know if this is literally true, but it feels like Toyotaro Uchida are convincing Toriyama to give the side characters more screen time. I think he's out of ideas for most of these "legacy" characters. Whenever these characters do something, we can almost certainly say Toyotaro or Toei is coming up with it. Their participation in RoF was left to the animators. Few of them are involved in the Future Trunks arc. Toriyama only got involved writing for No.18 in the ToP when he decided to step in to correct Toyotaro. They're not around in Broly. It's safe to assume that Toyo was responsible for their involvement in the GPP arc.

As a fan, Toyotaro wants to see more of all of the characters. DB Room knows fans want it, knows it can be used to pad the story, and probably thinks it helps build the brand behind these other characters.

I think that's harmless enough. Nothing's bad, and there are some moments that stand out. Still, it's not as thoughtful or juicy as what we see from Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and any of the main new/guest characters. If things stay as they have been, that's fine. I do hope more

Toriyama loves bringing the cast back together, always has if you go through the original manga. Even in the modern material he brings them about for BoG, F, U6 and the US arc. That's the majority of the series with the only outliers (Trunks and Broly) being something that was suggested to him by an editor. So it's really Toriyama keeping these characters around because they've become somewhat of a comfort zone.

If there is an interest and desire for Broly then that's the fans' perogative. I don't care personally for him but to each their own.

Batistabus: It's funny you should mention the preceding skirmishes amongst the grunts. I enjoyed the cooperative effort with Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, and the cyborgs against Moro more than the actual climax with Ultra Instinct mastered. It demonstrated greater initiative and collaborative ingenuity with an ambiance of fierce desperation in having their backs to the wall that I feel was lost with Goku predictably, though understandably, learning to tap into his lastest "non" transformation state and then proceeding to humiliate the antagonist. The fight with Seven-Three was dynamically similar and enjoyable, though it lacked intensity of the Z-Warriors being on their last legs as they were actually in a good position throughout the fight.

Yeah I agree with this. The bit with Goku, Gohan and Piccolo teaming up to trap Moro was very good and would have actually caused big damage if he didn't have regen abilities. Once it fell back on UI Goku again I found it boring and largely uninteresting because UI itself really shouldn't have been in that story in my opinion. At least the team ups had some actual chemistry between the characters going on.