Piccolo Discussion

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I agree some characters have served their purpose and no longer there's a need for them to comeback in predominant roles. Big Green's development has been pretty smooth, from villain to antihero, to comrade, to friend, to uncle-ish.

As for Vegeta, well, yes, his arc ended long ago, but this isn't really a story about a bunch of regular guys going through life, college, work, trying to find love or whatever, and all they have is learning stuff about themselves for personal growth, this is about a story about the world being in danger constantly, and they are space warriors, so it makes sense to have the second strongest, and sometimes the strongest, still on the dance floor. I mean, GT took Geets out of the picture and, well... did that make any sense at all? the second strongest never contributing?

Vegeta by the Boo arc was weaker than Goku, Gohan, Gotenks and Mr. Boo who had just been added to the cast (as well as arguably Oob if we take the epilogue into account). In this hypothetical world where Dragon Ball continued from the Boo arc onward, Vegeta would no longer be a necessary key for the protection of Earth considering stronger fighters existed (and no doubt stronger fighters would be added to the cast eventually that would also eclipse the aforementioned).

Like Cipher said, Super seems committed to take Vegeta as the deuteragonist of the series, but personally I find it a detriment at this point. The character has stagnated and frankly they're not doing anything new with him to warrant his continued presence. The only direction I could see for the character, and one I'd personally enjoy, would be for him to surpass Goku for an arc or two and then realize that this didn't grant him the satisfaction and purpose that he was seeking.

That is true for Z, but when the show came back, it took Vegeta like 25 minutes to surpass all of the people you mentioned by just getting angry. So in the first half of BoG, Vegeta justified being in the spotlight for the following years in a fighting show.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta by the Boo arc was weaker than Goku, Gohan, Gotenks and Mr. Boo who had just been added to the cast (as well as arguably Oob if we take the epilogue into account). In this hypothetical world where Dragon Ball continued from the Boo arc onward, Vegeta would no longer be a necessary key for the protection of Earth considering stronger fighters existed (and no doubt stronger fighters would be added to the cast eventually that would also eclipse the aforementioned).

But wasn't that the same thing that happened at the end of the Android saga? Vegeta was overcome by Goku and Gohan, he even decided that he would not fight anymore And yet, in the next saga he was again in the second spot / as part of the main cast because he never really stopped training, and at the same time Toriyama decided that Gohan would do the exact opposite (which would naturally relegate him to a position of inertia in the narrative until a threat appears, which is basically what happened after the Boo arc). And both official sequels to the original Dragon Ball (Super and GT, obviously with only one of them being canonical) treated not only Gohan, but Goten and Trunks the same way.

So it seems much less natural for Vegeta to end up being sidelined in terms of not being able to keep up with the strength of the main cast considering he is the only one of the Earth warriors (alongside Goku) who continues to train. DB GT ignoring Vegeta did not seem natural because there was no substitute for him. The new generation was left behind due to lack of training and even Oob was absent for a good part of the series (with minor roles in the main fights). So at least in terms of prominence, what DBS did seems more natural to me because that was the line that Toriyama followed too

[BWri]

I kinda like what they're doing with him now (finally) in Super. I should say, I think he's trending in the right direction after the ToP. He's been a subtle powerhouse since the Tournament of Destroyers really. He's definitely not top tier, but throughout Super he's gone from bottom tier to mid-tier where he seems to comfortably sit at the moment as of the Moro arc. For a guy with no transformations or dramatic breakthroughs, this is nice! And he gets some decent action scenes here and there, which is nice. As long as he's not trotted out to be constantly embarrassed or undermined (like losing to a bug, being forced to forfeit by Vegeta, or completely jobbing out to Tagoma) then I have no problem with this.

Outside of power ratings and fight scenes, it would be nice to see his own past have some relevance to an upcoming plot. Out of all the characters on the cast, Piccolo probably has the most interesting history and it's a shame that it hasn't featured into the story since he fused with Kami.

That said, if they're just going to make him get his ass kicked all the time and not grow as a fighter or person then I'd rather they just leave him off the page entirely.

Just a random list of things I'd like to see from Piccolo:
1. Kaioken usage and evolution (maybe combining it with his Namekian regeneration to offset the deleterious effects)
2. Growing higher than a mid-tier fighter
3. His lineage as a child of Kattas and former god featuring heavily in a future story arc
4. Evolution of his fighting style and possibly new or more effective techniques
5. More mentorship scenes with Dende and plots involving his status as former Kami and Dende's as current Kami.
5. Learning more about how Nail's contribution affected him, if it affected his personality and fighting philosophy, if it added to his intellect, etc.
6. I'd also like to hear more about Nail and how he got so strong and his effect on the surviving Namekians and Namekian culture, if any.
7. That Kami had god ki and Piccolo inherited it as well. There's some instances in the DBS anime of Piccolo basically "sensing" it, especially during the ToP.
8. More training with Gohan, but maybe also some sessions with King Kai, Goku, and Tenshinhan since he's trained with them before.
9. Him eventually training a young Namekian fighter or some other young apprentice if a "next generation" story is pursued.
10. Maybe training with Whis, but I'd prefer Piccolo followed his own path.

[BWri]

What do you guys think Toriyama/Toyotaro SHOULD do with Piccolo next? I personally think he should get a god form and train goten and trunks. (My original idea was to have C17 train them but then I realized there's not much he could teach them.)

Actually, scratch away everything I previously said. All I want from Piccolo is to gain his "edge" and competitiveness back that he possessed in late DB, early Z and for him to desire to be the strongest once more. This time, his desire would be to become the strongest protector of Earth. If I could have one simple wish for the character, it would be that.

[Lionel]

People here raise a valid point. What do you do with a character whose narrational progression had reached its apex back decades ago? You could say that his remerging with Kami was the final reconciliation of Piccolo's faults and identity with the original being having been reborn, new purpose embraced and everything. All of what occurred afterwards was declining action and window dressing. When you look at it like that, I can understand the resolution of Piccolo's being up.

What I'll say is that Super has introduced some new concepts that expand the mythos and open up new possibilities for Piccolo. We hear how the Namekian Dragon Balles were fragments used by the species from the original Super variants, right? In the anime at least, the Namekians happen to possess a repository of legends and ancient lore that you would think carry some valuable application for the species itself instead of merely serving as an offhand device to justify Goku's latest disposable transformation. More than that, we know Piccolo still holds some notoriety as even the Hakaishin Champa and Vados took notice of him for being unusual during the Universe 6 tournament.

I think if the intiative and eagerness were there Piccolo's subplot could be injected with some new life. For all intents and purposes Freeza seemed to be an open and shut menace yet look at him now. People are speculating as to what role he'll be playing in the latest arc and how he ties into Broly and Granola's characters. Piccolo similarly has that potential, I hope.

[Yuji]

People here raise a valid point. What do you do with a character whose narrational progression had reached its apex back decades ago? You could say that his remerging with Kami was the final reconciliation of Piccolo's faults and identity with the original being having been reborn, new purpose embraced and everything. All of what occurred afterwards was declining action and window dressing. When you look at it like that, I can understand the resolution of Piccolo's being up.

What I'll say is that Super has introduced some new concepts that expand the mythos and open up new possibilities for Piccolo. We hear how the Namekian Dragon Balles were fragments used by the species from the original Super variants, right? In the anime at least, the Namekians happen to possess a repository of legends and ancient lore that you would think carry some valuable application for the species itself instead of merely serving as an offhand device to justify Goku's latest disposable transformation. More than that, we know Piccolo still holds some notoriety as even the Hakaishin Champa and Vados took notice of him for being unusual during the Universe 6 tournament.

I think if the intiative and eagerness were there Piccolo's subplot could be injected with some new life. For all intents and purposes Freeza seemed to be an open and shut menace yet look at him now. People are speculating as to what role he'll be playing in the latest arc and how he ties into Broly and Granola's characters. Piccolo similarly has that potential, I hope.

I agree that due to Piccolo's backstory some natural opportunities for the character can sprout out of new enemies tied to Namek and its ancient myths, but as I see it, a) fans don't seem interested in the potential for Piccolo's involvement in the story as a support character or a plot driver, but more-so as a prominent, top tier fighter (a role the character at this point seems to have given up achieving), and b) Toriyama seems uninterested in revisiting Namek except for backdrops and window dressing, "been here done that" sort of situation.

[omaro34]

discussing piccolo and what to do with him such as power ups and being more relevant to the story is such a waste of time because it will never happen

he should honestly go to Namek in U7 and become the planet's protector, his presence on earth isn't needed, and if the arc doesn't involve Namek just write him out of the story altogether.

[omaro34]

Just ignore him and move onto new characters, honestly.

The same way DB has always done.

I like Piccolo, but he faded out of the spotlight naturally long ago. No reason to be more precious about the cast than the series itself is.

the same could be said for practically everyone in the earth cast except for goku and vegeta

[Cipher]

the same could be said for practically everyone in the earth cast except for goku and vegeta

Yes. That is the argument I'm making.

Well, and Bulma. Bulma's a mainstay who comes and goes depending on the arc.

You could even say the same thing for Vegeta, although Super has chosen not to.

[Kinokima]

Honestly every character has reached the end of their story. Goku is probably the only one who you can say never will because his story is about getting stronger and meeting the next strong fighter. You could argue that can go on indefinitely but I do feel how fast Goku reaches the next impossible level has become a bit ridiculous

Vegeta’s story was ultimately about accepting that he changed and deciding he would fight to protect the people he loved and that Earth is now his home. I guess you could argue it was also to give up his rivalry with Goku but even Toriyama added that wasn’t the case before Super even began.

Besides that Vegeta in Super is just finding ways to surpass Goku (though he’s a good guy now) his major development is done. But I guess he still has something that keeps him going and more importantly ties him ultimately to Goku’s journey.


That being said I wouldn’t want the old cast to be replaced by a new cast. I feel Super isn’t the same thing as the original DB. It’s a series at least partially founded on nostalgia. And as a fan I don’t want the old characters to just disappear. I want more Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc

Also Super has brought back old characters 17, Freeza, Future Trunks. So I would argue that the goal isn’t about retiring old characters


Also Dragon Ball had characters develop through multi long arcs (I feel Vegeta and Gohan especially benefited the most from this) . Whereas in Super it seems most new characters are only around for an arc. I am not saying I don’t enjoy or even love many of the new characters that have been introduced. But I just don’t feel the same attachment to them as I do the old cast. The one exception to this would be Beerus and Whis who have been a part of every arc and now feel like Dragon Ball mainstays.

[batistabus]

Vegeta is #2. He has been since the original series, he accepted it during the Boo arc, and he's been coping with it throughout Super. Some say it's character regression, but you can't be #2 unless you strive to be #1. The realm of godly power gave him a new opportunity to compete, but his fate remains the same. Sometimes it's played for laughs, and sometimes it's played for drama. Sometimes he accepts it, sometimes he can't handle it. Vegeta can surpass Goku for a moment, but Goku will surpass Vegeta the next. But because Vegeta trails so closely behind Goku, he pushes Goku to do even better. The dynamic between the two characters largely sets the tone of Super. He has, and will continue to have, an important role in the series.

Using Vegeta's situation to justify a boost to Piccolo is pointless. Piccolo is a fan favorite, sure. Toriyama even claimed him as his favorite at one point. He has some odd abilities, but those have been surpassed by many of the new god characters. He doesn't have the drive or potential to continue to push Goku. When Toriyama uses him, he's an uncle, or a teacher, or comedic relief. Sure, he can fight some tougher grunts, but don't expect him to be competing on the Godly level. The Namekian Book of Legends was never mentioned in Toriyama's film scripts or the manga, anyway.

[omaro34]

Honestly every character has reached the end of their story. Goku is probably the only one who you can say never will because his story is about getting stronger and meeting the next strong fighter. You could argue that can go on indefinitely but I do feel how fast Goku reaches the next impossible level has become a bit ridiculous

Goku went from humans being able to give him a hard time to literal god levels of power. That alone is ridiculous, and one wonders how much further Goku can go. Unless they introduce a being beyond Zeno, Goku's limit isn't that far off.

For Piccolo, I'd much prefer him to be on Namek. Have him be absent for a few arcs. Fans will miss him sure, but when he does return it will be bittersweet, similar to Future Trunks returning or Android 17. Outside of Gohan, Dende, and perhaps Goku, no one else on Earth would honestly flinch if Piccolo returned to his homeworld and lived there.

[Grimlock]

Toriyama even claimed him as his favorite at one point. He has some odd abilities, but those have been surpassed by many of the new god characters. He doesn't have the drive or potential to continue to push Goku. When Toriyama uses him, he's an uncle, or a teacher, or comedic relief. Sure, he can fight some tougher grunts, but don't expect him to be competing on the Godly level. The Namekian Book of Legends was never mentioned in Toriyama's film scripts or the manga, anyway.

But does he "need" to push Goku? Pretty sure he can be strong on his own, without having to push anyone. He could be a "lesser god" of some sorts, since "gods strength" vary anyway, not everyone should be too strong only meant for Goku and Vegeta.

The Namekuseijin Book of Legends is just a trivia thing, it could be implemented anywhere in the story.

[batistabus]

Toriyama even claimed him as his favorite at one point. He has some odd abilities, but those have been surpassed by many of the new god characters. He doesn't have the drive or potential to continue to push Goku. When Toriyama uses him, he's an uncle, or a teacher, or comedic relief. Sure, he can fight some tougher grunts, but don't expect him to be competing on the Godly level. The Namekian Book of Legends was never mentioned in Toriyama's film scripts or the manga, anyway.

But does he "need" to push Goku? Pretty sure he can be strong on his own, without having to push anyone. He could be a "lesser god" of some sorts, since "gods strength" vary anyway, not everyone should be too strong only meant for Goku and Vegeta.

The Namekuseijin Book of Legends is just a trivia thing, it could be implemented anywhere in the story.

Namekian Book of Legends is filler trivia. Unless it suddenly appears in one of Toriyama or Toyotaro's works, it has no bearing on the story they will tell in the future.

If Piccolo was going to be a god, there would've been no need to bring in Dende as God of Earth.

[Grimlock]

Namekian Book of Legends is filler trivia. Unless it suddenly appears in one of Toriyama or Toyotaro's works, it has no bearing on the story they will tell in the future.

You do know it appears in an interview spoken by Toriyama himself, right? For all we know, it was in the movie's script but they opted not to use it.

Toyotaro isn't really someone to go by blindly, since there's no mention of Tarble, despite there having two mentions to that character in the movies.

If Piccolo was going to be a god, there would've been no need to bring in Dende as God of Earth.

What kind of comparison is this? Not even Saiyans were meant to become gods when Dende became god. This is new. And Piccolo would become "a different type" of god, not one to rule a planet, just like Super Saiyan God.

Then again, one can argue Piccolo is already a god, he merged with Kami. That allowed him to sense Kaioshin of East and realize who he is back in the tournament.

[batistabus]

You do know it appears in an interview spoken by Toriyama himself, right? For all we know, it was in the movie's script but they opted to not use it.

You're right, I guess I missed that. I'll clarify by saying that nothing is official until it appears in the series, but there's always the possibility, and the fact that the quote is recent does make it more relevant.

But that in no way suggests there is a legend of a Super Namekian God. If anything, it suggests there's not, since the Namekians supposedly have access to this information, and there's no such god. He would've certainly come in handy against Freeza and Moro.

Since Namekian Elders appear to be the equivalent of planetary gods, it's possible they have some degree of god ki, and even that Dragon Clan Namekians utilize it for their magic. That use of god ki appears more in line with the use by Kaioshin, who are better at magic than fighting.

What kind of comparison is this? Not even Saiyans were meant to become gods when Dende became god. This is new. And Piccolo would become "a different type" of god, not one to rule a planet, just like Super Saiyan God.

When you said "lesser god", I interpreted it as a god of responsibility, rather than a god by use of God ki like Goku, who would never become a god of responsibility.

Then again, one can argue Piccolo is already a god, he merged with Kami. That allowed him to sense Kaioshin of East and realize who he is back in the tournament.

Yes, I noticed that when god ki started being described in interviews after BoG. That retcon does work to some degree.

Dende said he had the potential to develop his God ki in this arc, so we can assume that the old God would've had the same potential. If Boo could retain the Dai Kaioshin's god ki when he absorbed him, Piccolo might be in a similar situation.

That's all well and good, but it's no different than people saying Gohan could aquire God ki, or Tenshinhan could become a lot stronger if he learned Kaioken. Just because it could happen doesn't mean the story would be any better off, or if it's even possible for the character, or that the character would even go down that route if it were possible. From what appears on the page/screen, this does not seem to be the direction we're going in.

Depending on how long Super continues for, and whether or not characters like Piccolo and Gohan continue to fight fodder, eventually they may escalate into the godly realm. Even if they do, we should expect they'll still be way behind Goku and Vegeta, so would that really be something to get exited about?

This does have me thinking about GT, where Piccolo is a guardian of Hell. We know Earth's Hell in Super doesn't work quite like Toei's version, but maybe Piccolo could become a body guard for Enma Daio, who occasionally has to put disembodied evil spirits in their place.

[omaro34]

People here raise a valid point. What do you do with a character whose narrational progression had reached its apex back decades ago? You could say that his remerging with Kami was the final reconciliation of Piccolo's faults and identity with the original being having been reborn, new purpose embraced and everything. All of what occurred afterwards was declining action and window dressing. When you look at it like that, I can understand the resolution of Piccolo's being up.

What I'll say is that Super has introduced some new concepts that expand the mythos and open up new possibilities for Piccolo. We hear how the Namekian Dragon Balles were fragments used by the species from the original Super variants, right? In the anime at least, the Namekians happen to possess a repository of legends and ancient lore that you would think carry some valuable application for the species itself instead of merely serving as an offhand device to justify Goku's latest disposable transformation. More than that, we know Piccolo still holds some notoriety as even the Hakaishin Champa and Vados took notice of him for being unusual during the Universe 6 tournament.

I think if the intiative and eagerness were there Piccolo's subplot could be injected with some new life. For all intents and purposes Freeza seemed to be an open and shut menace yet look at him now. People are speculating as to what role he'll be playing in the latest arc and how he ties into Broly and Granola's characters. Piccolo similarly has that potential, I hope.

I agree that due to Piccolo's backstory some natural opportunities for the character can sprout out of new enemies tied to Namek and its ancient myths, but as I see it, a) fans don't seem interested in the potential for Piccolo's involvement in the story as a support character or a plot driver, but more-so as a prominent, top tier fighter (a role the character at this point seems to have given up achieving), and b) Toriyama seems uninterested in revisiting Namek except for backdrops and window dressing, "been here done that" sort of situation.

I disagree that fans aren't interested in the potential for Piccolo's lore being developed more. Despite his setbacks, he consistently ranks relatively high on people's favourite character lists. It also adds some diversity outside of the Saiyans.

[batistabus]

Part of it is that Piccolo has been humbled. He used to be that guy. He was ferocious. As soon as he was revived, he asked if he could be sent to Namek to fight Freeza. But after everything he's seen...he knows that children are stronger than him, and it's hurt his enthusiasm around fighting. It's kinda sad for Piccolo, but it's played well for comedy. And certainly, merging with Nail and God has influenced him...

Of course, in Dragon Ball, anything is possible. If Piccolo is to come back in a major fighting role, his personal struggle deserves some serious acknowledgment. He would need a real way to break through. Even if we're talking about a ritual similar to that of Super Saiyan God, that level of power would still put him far below where Goku and Vegeta are now. Merging with all other Namekians seems out of the question now that it's been used by both the anime and manga, but I guess that's something Heroes might do. If we're going that route, maybe he'd fuse with Dende...or Mr. Popo...

You could also get a true revival of Daimao - unlike that outburst after No.18 kicked their ass - but it's a bit too reminiscent of Majin Vegeta.

It would require something similar for Gohan. He is still many leagues above Piccolo, but he's satisfied at his level. He can balance being a physical threat, home life, and academia, and he doesn't need more than that. I think it would require serious tragedy or ritual, which I am also not expecting. The tragedy route would definitely be a surprise, and it could get pretty dark...

If Gohan and Piccolo can keep coming up with creative team plays, I'll be content with that, but I'd prefer more from these characters outside of battle. DBS has a lot of fighting already.

[Grimlock]

But that in no way suggests there is a legend of a Super Namekian God. If anything, it suggests there's not, since the Namekians supposedly have access to this information, and there's no such god. He would've certainly come in handy against Freeza and Moro.

There isn't anything about Super Namekuseijin God as far as the viewer is concerned, but that doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Lack of evidence is not an evidence. Once they decide to do it, they'll just do it. Especially because there's nothing in-universe preventing that from happening, the possibility is right there for the taking.

When you said "lesser god", I interpreted it as a god of responsibility, rather than a god by use of God ki like Goku, who would never become a god of responsibility.

Right after saying that I proceeded to talk about power level, thought it was clear in what I meant, but sorry if I weren't clear.

Even if they do, we should expect they'll still be way behind Goku and Vegeta, so would that really be something to get exited about?

I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy to see Piccolo (alone or accompanied) faring just fine with the third antagonist at best. So for example, who would you say it fits into that category from the Universe Survival saga? We have Jiren as the main one, Toppo as the second one (dealt by Vegeta, the deuteragonist) and who would be the third one? Whoever it is, let Piccolo deal with them. I'd say Piccolo is the tritagonist of the franchise anyway. This is as far as his role can go, he doesn't need to push anyone, he needs to be treated better. I'm sure we all would be satisfied with that (again, he doesn't need to be alone, he can share the spotlight with someone else).

Anyway, short answer: yes. It would be. Piccolo doesn't need to be as strong as Goku, he just needs to perform better. That's all.

[Kinokima]

While it was a very small moment I did feel Piccolo being the one to tell Vegeta to use his Spirit Fission technique to give energy to Goku was a great use of Piccolo.