Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[ABED]

Kuririn wasn't retired. If he qualifies, then he came out of retirement for the tournament. Vegeta said he was gonna stop fighting after Goku died and yet he came out of retirement for the tournament.

Of course Goku wanted Kuririn to return to martial arts but that doesn't mean he forced it on him. And given the level of power DB was dealing with, it's not a surprise that Kuririn would be reticent, but the point is he overcomes that and his fighting spirit is reignited. That's not cowardice.

[super michael]

Kuririn wasn't retired. If he qualifies, then he came out of retirement for the tournament. Vegeta said he was gonna stop fighting after Goku died and yet he came out of retirement for the tournament.

Of course Goku wanted Kuririn to return to martial arts but that doesn't mean he forced it on him. And given the level of power DB was dealing with, it's not a surprise that Kuririn would be reticent, but the point is he overcomes that and his fighting spirit is reignited. That's not cowardice.

I understand what you mean, just because one retires doesn't mean they have to stay retired. That is a good point about Krillin overcoming his fear and regaining his fighting spirit.

One of the theme in Dragon Ball has always been about the younger generation taking over the older generation. Too bad this stopped being a theme in DBS.

[MasenkoHA]

One of the theme in Dragon Ball has always been about the younger generation taking over the older generation. Too bad this stopped being a theme in DBS.

Sure, but as an interquel to Z there’s still going to be Goku taking Oob to be his successor in the future.


Goku had pretty much settled on the idea that Goten and Trunk enjoy the thrill but they don’t have the heart and dedication for it. Trying to undo that in Super would feel hollow. They at least made Gohan want to be a fighter again. And they even managed to do so in a believable way that didn’t feel like total pandering to Gohan fans who were upset with the Boo saga developments.


GT is way more guilty of undoing the “new generation will take over for the older generation “ thematic. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks still don’t do anything. Pan is reduced to a damsel. Bra is just an excuse to show how domesticated Vegeta had become, and Oob is made irrelevant

[super michael]

One of the theme in Dragon Ball has always been about the younger generation taking over the older generation. Too bad this stopped being a theme in DBS.

Sure, but as an interquel to Z there’s still going to be Goku taking Oob to be his successor in the future.


Goku had pretty much settled on the idea that Goten and Trunk enjoy the thrill but they don’t have the heart and dedication for it. Trying to undo that in Super would feel hollow. They at least made Gohan want to be a fighter again. And they even managed to do so in a believable way that didn’t feel like total pandering to Gohan fans who were upset with the Boo saga developments.


GT is way more guilty of undoing the “new generation will take over for the older generation “ thematic. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks still don’t do anything. Pan is reduced to a damsel. Bra is just an excuse to show how domesticated Vegeta had become, and Oob is made irrelevant

Can't wait to see Uub in action in DBS, hope he lives up to the hype.

Goten and Trunks didn't lose interest in outdoing each other, competing, training and fighting until EOZ for unknown reason. Ok for Goten it was when he got interested in girls, but when we don't know. As for Trunks he is completely unknown.
However DBS is making it look like their families and friends are the main reason why they quit fighting and training.

While in GT Goten, Trunks, Uub and Pan never won a battle. At least no one kept secrets from them and let them join in the fights, heck even C18 got a piece of the action. As for Bra yeah I got not nothing positive to say about her, she got neither brains or power.

If GT was written today, then there will be a lot of secrets to keep the younger generations away from battling. If it is Toei of today then they will milk it with all their teasing.

[ABED]

And what's wrong with teasing?

While there's some talk about the next generation, I wouldn't call it a theme as except for the first third of DB, the story was never about passing the torch.

[super michael]

A bit of teasing that is alright, however too much teasing becomes predictable and annoying, like I said this anime is a fighting anime and not a anime about forbidding and secrets. There is a reason why no other anime does that writing style.
We fans want to see our favourite characters do things and not being teased that they will do something, only for everyone to prevent them.

In DBZ they did try to pass the torch to Gohan and then later on Goten and Trunks. Lets not forget Master Roshi passing the torch to his students.

When it is a bit of teasing I would think, "ok that was unexpected". But when it is too much teasing, as soon as they appear I would think "great how are they going to forbid them or keep secrets from them" which ends up being correct.

[ABED]

That's vague and not really helpful

In DBZ they did try to pass the torch to Gohan and then later on Goten and Trunks. Lets not forget Master Roshi passing the torch to his students.

Tried and it didn't work so that would be counter to the idea that it's a theme. And passing the torch once doesn't make it a them. It passed to the current generation which is who the show is about. Passing the torch is not a recurring motif of the series. The story was about progressing and overcoming limits. It wasn't about the next generation.

What is your deal with them keeping secrets? What are you even talking about? Who was being teased? When? Who's being forbidden from fighting?

[super michael]

That's vague and not really helpful

In DBZ they did try to pass the torch to Gohan and then later on Goten and Trunks. Lets not forget Master Roshi passing the torch to his students.

Tried and it didn't work so that would be counter to the idea that it's a theme. And passing the torch once doesn't make it a them. It passed to the current generation which is who the show is about. Passing the torch is not a recurring motif of the series. The story was about progressing and overcoming limits. It wasn't about the next generation.

What is your deal with them keeping secrets? What are you even talking about? Who was being teased? When? Who's being forbidden from fighting?

I guess I am wrong about passing the torch to the next generation. Now on to the secrets and forbidding:

- RoF = Kept it a secret from Goten and Trunks and when they do come everyone wants them to go away.
- U6 vs U7 = Trunks suggests to join but Vegeta denies with no chance to train.
- Goku Racing to pick up vegetables = Goten not allowed to join in.
- Goku wanted to spar with someone = Goten not allowed to spar with Goku his own father.
- Goten and Trunks wanted to go to the future to help Future Trunks = Not allowed.
- Goten wanted to train with Whis = Not allowed.
- Goten and Trunks wanted Vegeta to train them = Not allowed.
- ToP = Kept it a secret from Goten and Trunks to not get any idea to join, basically zero chance to prove themselves.
- Broly movie = Kept the identity a secret of who broke into their house so he doesn't know it is Freeza men.
- Moro invasion (manga only) = kept the invasion a secret from Goten and Trunks. Two month to train in the ROSAT available but they kept the invasion a secret.

Do you really think fans like that? Imagine if every time Goku showed up and he is forbidden, do you think fans would like that? Of course that would never happen, but that is my example.

If or when the anime comes back and they continue, I can be sure more teasing of Goten and Trunks will be done.

[ABED]

Goku is the main character so it's not the same thing at all. I don't see your issue. Heaven forbid fathers try to protect their children. It's not like Goku didn't keep his friends and family back to protect them. He told Muten Roshi and Kuririn not to help him against Raditz. He told Gohan and Kuririn to not help against Vegeta or Reacoom. Please stop looking for stuff to rag on Super about. There are legit criticisms about this show and DB as a whole, but this ain't one of them.

Goten and Trunks were never going to join the team, and they were given an important task so it's irrelevant if they knew. they weren't joining the team.

Kept the identity a secret of who broke into their house so he doesn't know it is Freeza men

What?

[super michael]

Goku is the main character so it's not the same thing at all. I don't see your issue. Heaven forbid fathers try to protect their children. It's not like Goku didn't keep his friends and family back to protect them. He told Muten Roshi and Kuririn not to help him against Raditz. He told Gohan and Kuririn to not help against Vegeta or Reacoom. Please stop looking for stuff to rag on Super about. There are legit criticisms about this show and DB as a whole, but this ain't one of them.

Goten and Trunks were never going to join the team, and they were given an important task so it's irrelevant if they knew. they weren't joining the team.

Kept the identity a secret of who broke into their house so he doesn't know it is Freeza men

What?

Master Roshi and Krillin couldn't get revived if they die, if they died that is it the end. It was before they knew about the Namek Dragon Balls.
The only time Goku tells them to not fight with him is if they might get in Goku way of fighting. However in the Vegeta fight Goku later tells Gohan and Krillin to fight. The point is we see them fight it isn't 100% they get told not to fight.

In DBS the adults 100% forbid and keeps secret from Goten and Trunks. What is so important about keeping watch of Monster Island, in the anime they just attack poachers which was off-screen. Even Marron was on the island, anyone could do that. Goku only said for Goten and Trunks to go to Monster Island so C17 fights in the tournament.

At least in the manga they added the Cell Jrs to make it interesting what they did in the island, the anime couldn't be bothered.

As for the Broly movie when Trunks said the description of the men who broke into their house, the adults knew who it was however they didn't tell Trunks. They knew it was Freeza men.

In RoF why doesn't Vegeta send everyone away, why does he only choose Goten and Trunks to go away? Except for Gohan and Piccolo, Goten and Trunks are stronger than everyone.

Edit I did like that Goten and Trunks were pissed off at Gohan for keeping the Moro Invasion a secret.

[ABED]

It wasn't just because they couldn't get revived. He wanted to protect his friends from harm. Even if they could be revived, he'd say the same thing. And no, Goku doesn't tell Gohan and Kuririn to fight. They came of their own accord.

Protecting that island is a good part of the reason they are able to convince 17 to join the team. He can fight without worrying about the animals. Getting 17 on the team is an important task.

As for the Broly movie when Trunks said the description of the men who broke into their house, the adults knew who it was however they didn't tell Trunks. They knew it was Freeza men.

I just saw the movie and I have no damn clue what you're talking about.

In RoF why doesn't Vegeta send everyone away, why does he only choose Goten and Trunks to go away? Except for Gohan and Piccolo, Goten and Trunks are stronger than everyone.

They are young children and he is being protective of them, like a good parent.

At least in the manga they added the Cell Jrs to make it interesting what they did in the island, the anime couldn't be bothered.

For crying out loud, you will look for ANY reason to dislike the show even the mos specious of rationales. Cutting from the tournament to Goten and Trunks fighting Cell Jr's would fall under the heading of filler.

[super michael]

It wasn't just because they couldn't get revived. He wanted to protect his friends from harm. Even if they could be revived, he'd say the same thing. And no, Goku doesn't tell Gohan and Kuririn to fight. They came of their own accord.

Protecting that island is a good part of the reason they are able to convince 17 to join the team. He can fight without worrying about the animals.

As for the Broly movie when Trunks said the description of the men who broke into their house, the adults knew who it was however they didn't tell Trunks. They knew it was Freeza men.

I just saw the movie and I have no damn clue what you're talking about.

In RoF why doesn't Vegeta send everyone away, why does he only choose Goten and Trunks to go away? Except for Gohan and Piccolo, Goten and Trunks are stronger than everyone.

They are young children and he is being protective of them, like a good parent.

I will copy the Broly movie subtitles exactly what it says

Trunks: They were wearing clothes like papa's
Everyone: Huh?
Bulma: Thank you, Trunks
End call
Vegeta: The culprit are Frieza's men.

They knew who it was and didn't tell Trunks.

https://read.mangadad.com/Mangadad/drag ... -198/7.jpg
Krillin believes that they can use the Dragon Balls to get revived, but Goku tells them that he found out Shenron never grants the same wish twice and that Master Roshi and Krillin can't get revived.
Goku says if they want to help, he didn't stop Krillin and Master Roshi from going. The only reason the humans didn't fight is because Piccolo joined Goku.

Let me show you when Goku tells them to fight.
https://read.mangadad.com/Mangadad/drag ... 236/11.jpg
https://read.mangadad.com/Mangadad/drag ... 236/12.jpg

They could have got Chiaotsu to fight in Monster Island, he is also super human.

Goten and Trunks are older than Gohan was when he went into battle. In the Moro chapter Goten and Trunks are teenager. Funny how Bulma who has no powers doesn't get send away.

For crying out loud, you will look for ANY reason to dislike the show even the mos specious of rationales. Cutting from the tournament to Goten and Trunks fighting Cell Jr's would fall under the heading of filler.

Goten and Trunks has always been my favourite character since the Buu Saga, it also helps that Future Trunks was my favourite character in the Android Saga, I like how he killed Freeza easy in a skillful way with his sword. I enjoy that they can fuse together to make Gotenks.

The manga did something exciting even if it is filler, what did the anime do? The answer is nothing. Every filler of Goten and Trunks is teasing.

[ABED]

I didn't need subtitles. I have no clue about the context. I don't recall anyone breaking into someone's house. Edit: I looked it up and I see no fault. I see why you don't like it. Your favorites weren't part of the action but why would they be? It doesn't seem like Vegeta actively held anything back from them. He just got the information he needed.

You aren't bringing up faults with the writing. You just like Goten and Trunks. That much has become abundantly clear. Your favorites not being in the thick of the action isn't bad writing.

I thought you might bring up Goku saying they should fight but that's not what we were talking about at all. For one, Goku is literally broken. He can't fight, and there are no other options. That's not the same thing as the Tournament of Power or Broly or Zamasu.

The answer is nothing.

And it's the better for it. No need to cutaway to an irrelevant side story.

I don't know what you are talking about when you bring up the Super manga. I don't read it, never have and likely never will.

[super michael]

I didn't need subtitles. I have no clue about the context. I don't recall anyone breaking into someone's house

You aren't bringing up faults with the writing. You just like Goten and Trunks. That much has become abundantly clear. Your favorites not being in the thick of the action isn't bad writing.

I thought you might bring up Goku saying they should fight but that's not what we were talking about at all. For one, Goku is literally broken. He can't fight, and there are no other options. That's not the same thing as the Tournament of Power or Broly or Zamasu.

The answer is nothing.

And it's the better for it. No need to cutaway to an irrelevant side story.

I don't know what you are talking about when you bring up the Super manga. I don't read it, never have and likely never will.

Sorry I misunderstood, it is when Freeza men broke into Trunks house to get the Dragon Rader. That is how Freeza got a hold of the Dragon Balls.

They could make filler of Goten and Trunks train and fight, that would be way better than forbidding and secret. That is way better than Kaioken Chi Chi forbidding Goten from sparring with Goku.

The anime is all the time doing filler to tease them, while the anime does hyper episode for Mr Buu, Krillin, Tien, etc. Why shouldn't Goten and Trunks get any hype episode? Maybe cut the teasing. Maybe cut the peanut gallery screaming, which adds nothing to the story.

As for Goku good point about being broken, it is not the same like the Tournament of Power and Broly movie. However Goku had no problem letting Gohan train for 3 years for the Cyborgs and then train in the ROSAT, despite not being able to transform at the time.
Gohan was allowed to go to the Cyborgs and Cell Games.

I thought you read the manga sorry. Get this in Kami Lookout Moro men attack the Look out, guess what Bulma does? She orders Mr Satan to fight and Mr Satan actually tries to fight.

When Moro men leaves, they tell them they will come in 2 months. While everyone trains hard, Gohan tell Goten and Trunks if they want to go to Monster Island. So Goten and Trunks doesn't know about the invasion.

Later on when Vegeta ask for everyone energy for Goku Ultra Instinct, that is how they found out. When the battle is over Goten and Trunks are pissed off at Gohan for keeping it secret.

[ABED]

Mr Buu was set up for a running joke, and Kuririn and Tenshinhan are part of the team at the end.

You are basically cliaming that the lack of Goten and Trunks euqals bad writing.

Gohan was the strongest fighter at the time of the Cell Games so it's a different issue. And it's a mixed bag when the Cyborgs arrive because he's allowed to join the team but they ask him to leave to protect him and Bulma and Trunks. One of the weaker fighters could've gone but they chose to protect Gohan.

[super michael]

Mr Buu was set up for a running joke, and Kuririn and Tenshinhan are part of the team at the end.

You are basically cliaming that the lack of Goten and Trunks euqals bad writing.

Gohan was the strongest fighter at the time of the Cell Games so it's a different issue. And it's a mixed bag when the Cyborgs arrive because he's allowed to join the team but they ask him to leave to protect him and Bulma and Trunks. One of the weaker fighters could've gone but they chose to protect Gohan.

Mr Buu battled in the Exhibition and displayed good feats and then he became Mr Fit Buu who was able to ring out Goku. The only gag was him falling asleep. As for Tien and Krillin they are part of the team, so they would fight in the Tournament. There was no need for hype episode.

I am claiming that the anime likes to tease, if the anime didn't constantly tease then I wouldn't care if they fight or not. But no the anime has got to make the fans think that they will do something only for them to end up doing nothing constantly.

Gohan became the strongest because he was allowed to train with the best fight of all time. Goku who trained with many masters and Piccolo. True I always did see it weird why they choice Gohan to keep Bulma and Trunks save and not the weaker fighter.

[ABED]

Mr Buu was set up for a running joke, and Kuririn and Tenshinhan are part of the team at the end.

You are basically cliaming that the lack of Goten and Trunks euqals bad writing.

Gohan was the strongest fighter at the time of the Cell Games so it's a different issue. And it's a mixed bag when the Cyborgs arrive because he's allowed to join the team but they ask him to leave to protect him and Bulma and Trunks. One of the weaker fighters could've gone but they chose to protect Gohan.

Mr Buu battled in the Exhibition and displayed good feats and then he became Mr Fit Buu who was able to ring out Goku. The only gag was him falling asleep. As for Tien and Krillin they are part of the team, so they would fight in the Tournament. There was no need for hype episode.

I am claiming that the anime likes to tease, if the anime didn't constantly tease then I wouldn't care. But no the anime has got to make the fans think that they will do something only for them to end up doing nothing.

Gohan became the strongest because he was allowed to train with the best fight of all time. Goku who trained with many masters and Piccolo. True I always did see it weird why they choice Gohan to keep Bulma and Trunks save and not the weaker fighter.

That qualifies as a running gag, and that was set up for the punchline of him falling asleep yet again.

What f'n tease? The lack of Trunks and Goten? That's not a tease, it's you not getting to see your favorite.

Gohan was the strongest because he had an endless well of potential that he can tap into when he gets mad. None of that is relevant to whether it's good writing or not.

[super michael]

Mr Buu was set up for a running joke, and Kuririn and Tenshinhan are part of the team at the end.

You are basically cliaming that the lack of Goten and Trunks euqals bad writing.

Gohan was the strongest fighter at the time of the Cell Games so it's a different issue. And it's a mixed bag when the Cyborgs arrive because he's allowed to join the team but they ask him to leave to protect him and Bulma and Trunks. One of the weaker fighters could've gone but they chose to protect Gohan.

Mr Buu battled in the Exhibition and displayed good feats and then he became Mr Fit Buu who was able to ring out Goku. The only gag was him falling asleep. As for Tien and Krillin they are part of the team, so they would fight in the Tournament. There was no need for hype episode.

I am claiming that the anime likes to tease, if the anime didn't constantly tease then I wouldn't care. But no the anime has got to make the fans think that they will do something only for them to end up doing nothing.

Gohan became the strongest because he was allowed to train with the best fight of all time. Goku who trained with many masters and Piccolo. True I always did see it weird why they choice Gohan to keep Bulma and Trunks save and not the weaker fighter.

That qualifies as a running gag, and that was set up for the punchline of him falling asleep yet again.

What f'n tease? The lack of Trunks and Goten? That's not a tease, it's you not getting to see your favorite.

Gohan was the strongest because he had an endless well of potential that he can tap into when he gets mad. None of that is relevant to whether it's good writing or not.

Do you know what teasing means, or maybe I am the one that don't know? Let me explain, the anime has Goten and Trunks appear all motivated to help in battle, wanting to train and help the good guys. We fans think oh they will get to do something. But instead its turns out that won't happen because X character prevents them.

That is the teasing, they constantly have Goten and Trunks like they will do something only for X character to stop them. Keeping secrets from them so they don't get involved, that has never happened in DB and DBZ before.
The only secret they kept was someone identity but it is all.

The manga they don't tease them, they don't pretend that Goten and Trunks will do something, only for nothing to happen. That is why I am fine with the manga. The only forbidding are ToP and Moro invasion which is two.

[ABED]

I do know what teasing is, but them wanting to help is not the writers teasing the audience. Teasing is setting up expectations and then subverting them. I didn't expect they would do anything. Besides, Trunks and Goten are mischievous, and do things they aren't supposed to. If they really wanted to help, they wouldn't be dissuaded by being told not to. And after they ended up not doing much of anything important in DBZ, I was sure that trend would continue in Super, probably even moreso considering where they were at the end of Z. Goten isn't as concerned with training, and Trunks is made to enter by his father. In the intervening years, they are clearly not as interested in martial arts.

Not telling them about Freeza's men taking the DB's isn't actively keeping the truth from them and it's not teasing. It's objectively not teasing. How you read that as a tease, I don't have a single clue.

they don't pretend that Goten and Trunks will do something, only for nothing to happen

Neither did the anime. You read into those examples what you wanted to.

[Skar]

When I watched Dragon Ball Super I enjoyed it, the times I didn't enjoy was the 100% forbidding moment with Goten and Trunks. This got so predictable that it was annoying, something that never happened in DBZ. Then there is keeping secret which never happened. In DBZ if someone was weak, then they wouldn't get forced to fight but in DBS even if someone retired like Krillin they force him to quit retirement and fight.

The way I see it is that anyone coming out of retirement is temporary since the half-Saiyans and humans all seemed to have retired from fighting by EoZ anyway. If Goku decided to train Goten and Trunks, they'll eventually have to lose interest in training to lineup with EoZ.

I'm fine with characters who have retired staying retired though since it usually only amounts to fan service. It's like if Master Roshi came out of retirement in the Saiyan saga to beat up a Saibaman or if the humans fought low level Babidi henchmen in the Buu saga. It would be cool to see but it wouldn't contribute much.