If Vegeta’s “goal” is TRULY to surpass Kakkarot.. Then he’s definitely going about it THE WRONG WAY!

[jd55513]

It’s a simple, self evident, commonly known, and obvious fact that the Angelic Perfected Ultra Instinct route is ALWAYS going to be superior to the God of Destruction route... There’s just no room for debate here. Especially after today’s chapter.. Whis revealed that there are varying degrees of Ultra Instinct, and at the presumed pinnacle of it all, you have the Grand Priest standing at the top! I’m sorry, but I don’t see a “God of Destruction Vegeta” EVER approaching the Grand Priest’s level..

I’m not saying that Vegeta won’t improve doing this now all of a sudden.. I’m sure he will make some really nice gains! And he might even become the best possible version of himself!

But if his “GOAL” is to surpass Goku, he’s obviously going about it the WRONG way!

However....! If his goal is simply to become stronger the natural way and (the easiest!) way, without any hindrances to his own natural way of doing things, thereby simply becoming the best possible version (of himself) that he can possibly be without UI, then yes, I think this is a really good way of going about things! Combining Lord Beerus’ many Godly Techniques and “Destruction Power” with said Spirit Control training can really bring Vegeta to a nice and impressive level of overall power and ability.

Just not on the level of the high tier Angels... That is all.

I feel you are making mistakes with Vegeta's character archetype. Vegeta upon first introduction, was a Saiyan antagonist, self aborbed in his royal saiyan pride, as a elite warrior. He didn't require training and believed himself to be the strongest saiyan warrior. He visited Earth to use the Dragon Balls to grant himself ultimate power to overthrow frieza and rule the universe. He didn't have a growth mindset, like Goku, where he believed he could improve, nor did he believe in seeking help from other people, as he viewed such a thing, as a weakness.

After the events of Namek and the knowledge of Goku becoming the legendary super saiyan and defeating Frieza. He started to focus all his rage and motivation in surpassing goku. Initially through brute force training. He still fought selfishly, and for only himself. He viewed fighting, only for the sake of proving himself to be the best warrior ever. When Goku once again, surprised the prince, with his version of training, and to his further annoyance, now his rivals son had surpassed him. This once again, showed Vegeta that their was something else he was missing.

If sheer training doesn't help, what then? Vegeta then found himself a family and thought that was the source of Goku's strength. Still Goku in the afterlife, had again, managed to surpass him, with SSJ3. Even going back to his dark roots didn't bring him closer to Goku.

Then came Vegeta's proclamation during the Kid Buu fight, that It was more than training, more than family, and more than just having interesting friends and mentors. It was spiritual enlightment, he was missing. Son Goku character archtype is based and inspired by Journey to the West. Sun Wukong is a mythical sage who is selfishly obsessed with fighting and even fights the Buddha! By the end of the story, Son Wukong is granted Buddhahood and enlightment for helping to retrieve the Buddhist Scrolls. This related because Son Goku is also a being who through his adventures and fighting, finds within himself, spiritual enlightment. You may doubt this idea that Son Goku is a "enlightened being" But you have to consider the Eastern Traditions conception of Enlightment, which is "emptyness" This is the first step in Buddhist-Daoist enlightment. It's called "Satari" or first enlightment. In the cultivation of Zen, this kind of mindset is what is required to reach newfound spiritual heights.
As for Vegeta. This is what he realized and after the Buu arc, he went on a "spiritual pilgrimage" in finding new masters and such, to teach him this kind of mindset and spirit.
This is who Vegeta is now, thanks to Son Goku's greatest strength, which is to allow others to find greater strength within themselves, through the Philosophical depths of martial arts.
To put it simply. Vegeta, realized that the wall he continues to push himself over, is not Son Goku, it is himself. The greatest person you will ever face, is yourself, your own thoughts, and fears. Vegeta was always fighting others and externalizing his own pitfalls onto others, instead of fighting himself.This pattern is apperent, in other villains in Dragon Ball. Son Goku is a being, who has always viewed his own spirit, as his wall to climb over. He shows mercy and compassion to others due to his Buddha nature, and to allow others to find this truth as well. Again, not to prove anything, but to find greater meaning.

Basically Dragon Ball is about the spiritual enlightenment of Son Goku, and the effect, he has on everything and everyone he meets and fights.
Every for, Goku has faced(i.e Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza, Android's, Buu, eventually Uub) all have changed in some positive way thanks to what I believe is Son Goku's Buddha like nature, a relic from his character archetype of Son Wukong.

[TBMx]

Vegeta surpassing MUI from this doesnt make him come off strong, just contrived it just makes MUI come off as weak, retconned to be easily caught, watered down, as there's as limit to how much we can believe he could genuinely improve in such a short span of time.

They bury Vegeta in the Moro arc to put over MUI Goku in a big way.

Now they're going to reverse that and trivialize MUI, making it petty, in order to put over Vegeta's new shit.

One step forward, two steps back.

How about they live with the absurd gap they made and have Vegeta close it in a believable way. Instead of panic nerfing MUI. And panic buffing Vegeta. He cannot catch Goku without this ludicrous contrivance as Goku will be improving throughout this arc too. And based on his past improvement, at a faster rate.

They need to stop cheapening the thing they set up for 4 years just for some quick desperate deus ex machina technique for Vegeta. If he learns it this arc, its far too easily learned. It should take him years to learn it just like Goku did with MUI as he's starting over with a new method.

A transformation is only as special as the adversity, effort and trials that went into gaining it.
As easily learned form is meaningless.

[Kinokima]

It did not take years for Goku to learn UI lol

[TBMx]

It did not take years for Goku to learn UI lol

Yeah it did. Whis started teaching Goku UI all the way back in RoF.

[Mister_Popo]

Goku and Vegeta both aim for selfimprovement.
The big difference .... Goku always tries to find the strength within himself.
He uses antagonists as a diving board, but the strength at the end always comes from inside.
MUI is the utter perfection of finding strength inside and a willingness to follow a straight 'enlighted' path to selfimprovement.

Vegeta however, has this obsession about surpassing Kakarott.
His strength does not come from within, but from an obsession to become stronger than someone else.
It fits his personality he does not try to find the strength though MUI, deep within himself.
He looks at all means possible that can make him stronger, regardless of how he does it.
And it goes even beyond that ...

He even wants to obtain strength though a different path than Goku, just because he wants to prove he can become superior 'his way'.
It does not even seem to matter to him whether or not MUI is the most efficient martial technique at the end of the day.
MUI could fit Goku more, but he does not even seem to really try the MUI-route, even when Whis insists it is 'the necessary way to overcome every opponent'? Does Beerus really knows as much about martial arts as Whis does?
The God of Destruction-route, which is obviously less clean than the angel-route, proves he is ready to use all means necessary in order to obtain his aim.
But at the end it's just a way to become stronger, it's very doubtful a God of Destruction can become vastly superior to a MUI-user.

Is it a way to vastly improve? Probably yes. Is it the right way to become stronger than Goku? I doubt it.

[TBMx]

Vegeta seems resistant to the idea that wanton destruction is a okay. So Beerus' tech doesn't seem to "suit" him either.

[Hugo Boss]

To put it simply. Vegeta, realized that the wall he continues to push himself over, is not Son Goku, it is himself. The greatest person you will ever face, is yourself, your own thoughts, and fears.

Bravo. Your post sums up pretty much everything about Vegeta’s character development. On a side note, could you be suggesting there are other levels of Buddhist “enlightenment”? Can you elaborate on that?

[Miracles]

He probably wasn't ever going to surpass him with Ultra Instinct, so if anything trying something else seems like a risk worth taking.

You can out-strong anything in DB, which is as close to a universal rule as its world has.

Do I think the story is going to end with him actually being on top? No; but I think there's more to do with him by having him develop laterally than always just being Goku, one step removed. And he can certainly stay relatively caught up to wherever Goku is via his own means.

Bingo. Especially with the bolded. Since Whis stated Vegeta's style isn't suited for UI. Vegeta definitely does need to take a different path.He can definitely surpass Goku if his ki level is higher. Regardless of the way he goes about attaining it. However, we all know Goku will just catch back up again. They are always on this roller coaster, Vegeta's up; now Goku's down; This time Goku is up and Vegeta's down again.

[TBMx]

He probably wasn't ever going to surpass him with Ultra Instinct, so if anything trying something else seems like a risk worth taking.

You can out-strong anything in DB, which is as close to a universal rule as its world has.

Do I think the story is going to end with him actually being on top? No; but I think there's more to do with him by having him develop laterally than always just being Goku, one step removed. And he can certainly stay relatively caught up to wherever Goku is via his own means.

Bingo. Especially with the bolded. Since Whis stated Vegeta's style isn't suited for UI. Vegeta definitely does need to take a different path.He can definitely surpass Goku if his ki level is higher. Regardless of the way he goes about attaining it. However, we all know Goku will just catch back up again. They are always on this roller coaster, Vegeta's up; now Goku's down; This time Goku is up and Vegeta's down again.

Spoiler:

If Vegeta has to roll back his views on his people's destruction and be okay with the destruction they caused than why would this new thing suit him any more than UI? Its just undoing his moral progress.

[jd55513]

To put it simply. Vegeta, realized that the wall he continues to push himself over, is not Son Goku, it is himself. The greatest person you will ever face, is yourself, your own thoughts, and fears.

Bravo. Your post sums up pretty much everything about Vegeta’s character development. On a side note, could you be suggesting there are other levels of Buddhist “enlightenment”? Can you elaborate on that?

The following comes from my Eastern Philosophy and Dragon Ball research: specifically the book:
The Book of Zen by Wong Kiew Kit

Four Levels of Enlightenment:
1st century Indian Buddhist Master: Asvaghosha system of classifying levels of awakening or enlightenment:
1: Enlightenment of the Initiated:( (“nei fan jue”)
2: Enlightenment of Resemblance: (“xiang si jue”) This is where the user realizes the impermanence of the phenomenal world we live in. The user will still be tied down to earthly and material things such as suffering, and attachments to others(selfishness)
3: Enlightenment of Convergence: (“sui fen jue”) This is Where the user may begin to grasp the higher forms of things(think of the western tradition and Platonist ideas such as the Forms). Higher things being the realization of the 4 Noble Truths etc. Even with this, the user may still be affected by feelings of care and concern for his fellow companians and wish to save them.
4: Perfect Enlightnement: (“jiu jing jue”) The state where the aspirant finally attends the complete understanding of the supreme being(ultimate reality) “Tathagata”

[Hugo Boss]

It’s interesting that Ultra Instinct also seems to have 4 levels at least, if you consider that Goku, Merus, Whis and the Grand Priest have different ranks.

Searching a little bit on the internet, I found that Buddha had a cousin that tried to usurp his position and started a different path to enlightenment, based on supernatural or psychic powers. I wonder if this is true or if it could be adapted to Dragon Ball on some way.

[Kinokima]

It did not take years for Goku to learn UI lol

Yeah it did. Whis started teaching Goku UI all the way back in RoF.

Yeah Whis briefly mentions something similar and then the concept of it shows up in a later arc. Acting like we were focused on UI for years before Goku got it is false.

Instead it was more like Whis mentions the idea
It shows up in a later arc and Goku gets it
Goku completely masters it an arc later

[Kinokima]

Goku and Vegeta both aim for selfimprovement.
The big difference .... Goku always tries to find the strength within himself.
He uses antagonists as a diving board, but the strength at the end always comes from inside.
MUI is the utter perfection of finding strength inside and a willingness to follow a straight 'enlighted' path to selfimprovement.

Vegeta however, has this obsession about surpassing Kakarott.
His strength does not come from within, but from an obsession to become stronger than someone else.
It fits his personality he does not try to find the strength though MUI, deep within himself.
He looks at all means possible that can make him stronger, regardless of how he does it.
And it goes even beyond that ...

He even wants to obtain strength though a different path than Goku, just because he wants to prove he can become superior 'his way'.
It does not even seem to matter to him whether or not MUI is the most efficient martial technique at the end of the day.
MUI could fit Goku more, but he does not even seem to really try the MUI-route, even when Whis insists it is 'the necessary way to overcome every opponent'? Does Beerus really knows as much about martial arts as Whis does?
The God of Destruction-route, which is obviously less clean than the angel-route, proves he is ready to use all means necessary in order to obtain his aim.
But at the end it's just a way to become stronger, it's very doubtful a God of Destruction can become vastly superior to a MUI-user.

Is it a way to vastly improve? Probably yes. Is it the right way to become stronger than Goku? I doubt it.

He is not going to ever surpass Goku regardless of the way he goes about it. So people arguing that Vegeta is going about things the wrong way and this is why Goku is better are also missing the point.

From a story perspective though having Vegeta always do the same thing as Goku just after Goku is boring development. It makes things more interesting to have Goku & Vegeta follow different paths

And you are right Vegeta will probably improve alongside Goku but not ever truly surpass Goku. That way his goal will always be ongoing in the same way there will always be stronger opponents for Goku to fight.

But at the end of the day Goku is the main character so he will stay on top no matter what Vegeta does. But Vegeta improves in ways he would not if he just gave up on his goal in surpassing Goku.

[Mister_Popo]

Goku and Vegeta both aim for selfimprovement.
The big difference .... Goku always tries to find the strength within himself.
He uses antagonists as a diving board, but the strength at the end always comes from inside.
MUI is the utter perfection of finding strength inside and a willingness to follow a straight 'enlighted' path to selfimprovement.

Vegeta however, has this obsession about surpassing Kakarott.
His strength does not come from within, but from an obsession to become stronger than someone else.
It fits his personality he does not try to find the strength though MUI, deep within himself.
He looks at all means possible that can make him stronger, regardless of how he does it.
And it goes even beyond that ...

He even wants to obtain strength though a different path than Goku, just because he wants to prove he can become superior 'his way'.
It does not even seem to matter to him whether or not MUI is the most efficient martial technique at the end of the day.
MUI could fit Goku more, but he does not even seem to really try the MUI-route, even when Whis insists it is 'the necessary way to overcome every opponent'? Does Beerus really knows as much about martial arts as Whis does?
The God of Destruction-route, which is obviously less clean than the angel-route, proves he is ready to use all means necessary in order to obtain his aim.
But at the end it's just a way to become stronger, it's very doubtful a God of Destruction can become vastly superior to a MUI-user.

Is it a way to vastly improve? Probably yes. Is it the right way to become stronger than Goku? I doubt it.

He is not going to ever surpass Goku regardless of the way he goes about it. So people arguing that Vegeta is going about things the wrong way and this is why Goku is better are also missing the point.

From a story perspective though having Vegeta always do the same thing as Goku just after Goku is boring development. It makes things more interesting to have Goku & Vegeta follow different paths

And you are right Vegeta will probably improve alongside Goku but not ever truly surpass Goku. That way his goal will always be ongoing in the same way there will always be stronger opponents for Goku to fight.

But at the end of the day Goku is the main character so he will stay on top no matter what Vegeta does. But Vegeta improves in ways he would not if he just gave up on his goal in surpassing Goku.

I partly agree with what you are suggesting here.

The debate 'will Vegeta ever surpass Goku' is probably a rhetoric one, because not being able to surpass Goku is what drives Vegate in the first place. It would take away his motivation for self improvement. Vegeta may come close if they ever were to have another duel, but it would more than probably end in a draw or Goku being the strongest.

This debate however makes sense set within the context of the new arc.
We can search for an in-universe explaination why it wouldn't work within this arc, regardless of the fact he never were to surpass Goku.
Why wouldn't Vegeta surpass Goku with that certain technique, is the central question here.

Beerus naturally has a big ego and may think his own methods can give access to (nearly) angelic levels.
But it's pretty evident Whis is the superior martial artist, teacher and mentor.

[TBMx]

It did not take years for Goku to learn UI lol

Yeah it did. Whis started teaching Goku UI all the way back in RoF.

Yeah Whis briefly mentions something similar and then the concept of it shows up in a later arc. Acting like we were focused on UI for years before Goku got it is false.

Instead it was more like Whis mentions the idea
It shows up in a later arc and Goku gets it
Goku completely masters it an arc later

Whis doesn't just mention the idea. He says he's going to meticulously go through each step to getting it with them. Rewatch the scene.

[Kinokima]

Yeah it did. Whis started teaching Goku UI all the way back in RoF.

Yeah Whis briefly mentions something similar and then the concept of it shows up in a later arc. Acting like we were focused on UI for years before Goku got it is false.

Instead it was more like Whis mentions the idea
It shows up in a later arc and Goku gets it
Goku completely masters it an arc later

Whis doesn't just mention the idea. He says he's going to meticulously go through each step to getting it with them. Rewatch the scene.

And Goku is shown that he learns UI because of this? Not at all

Again you are taking a random old scene which wasn’t even built upon or really developed and acting like it took years for Goku to learn & master UI which isn’t the case at all. It’s just an exaggeration

Goku gets stuff as quickly as Vegeta does.

[TBMx]

Spoiler:

So Vegeta saying he doesn't want to surrender his mind to mindless UI is a okay, but him being happy to surrender his mind to constant thoughts of just destruction is fine?

Him learning a technique that Goku already displayed several arcs ago is not taking Goku's sloppy seconds?

Lets be honest and admit, fans find it suitable for Vegeta just because its coming from Toriyama.

[TBMx]

Yeah Whis briefly mentions something similar and then the concept of it shows up in a later arc. Acting like we were focused on UI for years before Goku got it is false.

Instead it was more like Whis mentions the idea
It shows up in a later arc and Goku gets it
Goku completely masters it an arc later

Whis doesn't just mention the idea. He says he's going to meticulously go through each step to getting it with them. Rewatch the scene.

And Goku is shown that he learns UI because of this? Not at all

Again you are taking a random old scene which wasn’t even built upon or really developed and acting like it took years for Goku to learn & master UI which isn’t the case at all. It’s just an exaggeration

Goku gets stuff as quickly as Vegeta does.

The manga explicitly shows he learned UI from the lessons of his past mentors including Whis. I'm honestly not sure what manga you're reading.

[Kinokima]

Whis doesn't just mention the idea. He says he's going to meticulously go through each step to getting it with them. Rewatch the scene.

And Goku is shown that he learns UI because of this? Not at all

Again you are taking a random old scene which wasn’t even built upon or really developed and acting like it took years for Goku to learn & master UI which isn’t the case at all. It’s just an exaggeration

Goku gets stuff as quickly as Vegeta does.

The manga explicitly shows he learned UI from the lessons of his past mentors including Whis. I'm honestly not sure what manga you're reading.

No I am contradicting your extreme exaggeration that it took years for Goku to learn Ultra Instinct

Yes the manga has a well written scene of Goku understanding UI because of all the lessons he learned from his masters especially from watching his first Master Roshi but this was not something that was developed over the years. It’s a single scene that Toyo or Toriyama just came up with. We didn’t see Goku try and struggle to learn UI throughout the manga leading up to that scene. Everything happened in that same arc. Just like Vegeta learned spirit fission & Goku fully mastered UI in the next full arc

You also make it like Vegeta is just going to see a new power up and get it that very second.

[TBMx]

And Goku is shown that he learns UI because of this? Not at all

Again you are taking a random old scene which wasn’t even built upon or really developed and acting like it took years for Goku to learn & master UI which isn’t the case at all. It’s just an exaggeration

Goku gets stuff as quickly as Vegeta does.

The manga explicitly shows he learned UI from the lessons of his past mentors including Whis. I'm honestly not sure what manga you're reading.

No I am contradicting your extreme exaggeration that it took years for Goku to learn Ultra Instinct

Yes the manga has a well written scene of Goku understanding UI because of all the lessons he learned from his masters especially from watching his first Master Roshi but this was not something that was developed over the years. It’s a single scene that Toyo or Toriyama just came up with. We didn’t see Goku try and struggle to learn UI throughout the manga leading up to that scene. Everything happened in that same arc. Just like Vegeta learned spirit fission & Goku fully mastered UI in the next full arc

You also make it like Vegeta is just going to see a new power up and get it that very second.

It took him his entire life up to this point because his learning of UI was portrayed as the culmination of all the lessons from all the mentors he had. Thats literally the justification the manga gave for him changing and you're effectively saying he could have done it without that. Which is just ignoring whats on the page.

Vegeta will likely get it this arc, and will surrender his mind to destruction. Thats fine by him even though him surrending his mind to mindless UI is not. Vegeta's a bum and a dumpster fire at this point so I'm past caring. I'm just pointing out the irony that fans support him not surrending his mind to UI but also support him surrendering his mind to this. Again it's just because Toriyama does it. He can do anything and fans defend it.