"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

So we got some more lore on Namekians and there being different sets in numbers of DB's around the universe.

Vegeta needs to stop putting the sins of the Saiyan race on his shoulders and get rid of those doubts from this guilt in order to become stronger.

No surprise that Beerus is still the man to beat.

[jd55513]

My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?
All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.

[TKA]

I wouldn’t mind if Vegeta too was there to wipe out Cerealians as that would give him an even stronger connection with Granola.

I disagree with this idea.

Vegeta's issue, as presented in this chapter, is that he feels some measure of guilt for the atrocities committed by his people. It's an irrational guilt, since he has nothing to do with their actions. Having him directly involved in this massacre completely justifies his guilt and makes Beerus' point ridiculous. It undermines the development he's supposed to have.

Related to that, this is an interesting development in Vegeta's character. In the Namek arc, he openly tells Dodoria that he doesn't give a fuck about the saiyans and then mercs him. This guilt he feels is a direct result of him becoming a better person.

[emperior]

I wouldn’t mind if Vegeta too was there to wipe out Cerealians as that would give him an even stronger connection with Granola.

I disagree with this idea.

Vegeta's issue, as presented in this chapter, is that he feels some measure of guilt for the atrocities committed by his people. It's an irrational guilt, since he has nothing to do with their actions. Having him directly involved in this massacre completely justifies his guilt and makes Beerus' point ridiculous. It undermines the development he's supposed to have.

Related to that, this is an interesting development in Vegeta's character. In the Namek arc, he openly tells Dodoria that he doesn't give a fuck about the saiyans and then mercs him. This guilt he feels is a direct result of him becoming a better person.

Actually you are perfectly right. The development is clearly about Vegeta shouldering even those sins he never committed. And he already faced a past one he was directly involved with in the previous arc.

I wonder what role Goku will play in the inevitable fight against Granola, then. If Bardock’s appearance, as many posters pointed out, is not casual (as a recent trailer also suggests by emphasising the scar) then it’s possible that Granola will also blame Goku for what his father did, especially because Bardock is the Saiyan actually hunting his dreams and the one who destroyed Granola’s hometown. Unless it turns out that for some reason Bardock spared Granola.

Realistically Goku shouldn’t give a damn about what his biological father or any other Saiyan did in the past, so he shouldn’t be affected by it even if Granola recognizes him as virtually identical to the Saiyan of his nightmares.

[GodVegetto91]

Vegeta is just afraid of going to hell. That’s all.

[DiscountDabi]

Vegeta is just afraid of going to hell. That’s all.

I don't think its fear. He seemed to accept it when talking to Moro. It seems more like genuine guilt on his part for the sins of his people. He is their Prince to be fair, and was supposed to be Future King.

[LightBing]

The introduction of the U6 Saiyans was when this development from Vegeta was introduced.

Vegeta taught Cabba about Super Saiyan using the same move he killed Nappa with. That's pretty telling about his change.
This has been brewing for a while, we were just informed of his guilt in the previous arc in relation to the Namekians and now even further.

[batistabus]

I haven't seen anyone point this out yet, but the Oozaru in the bottom-left panel of page 8 appears to be Leek (Bardock's crewmate from Minus). He has the same scar and (Bulma style) armor.

[DiscountDabi]

I haven't seen anyone point this out yet, but the Oozaru in the bottom-left panel of page 8 appears to be Leek (Bardock's crewmate from Minus). He has the same scar and (Bulma style) armor.

Makes sense as it seems Bardocks Crew was the one taking out Planet Cereal. Hopefully we can get a flashback to that and get the full picture.

[OrangeBanana]

I kinda hope Vegeta doesn't listen to the cat's advice atleast not fully. I believe Vegeta will let go of his past sins but won't fully embrace the path of destruction instead he'll sit in the middle and from that maybe he'll access a new level of strength???

[kemuri07]

Vegeta is just afraid of going to hell. That’s all.

I don't think its fear. He seemed to accept it when talking to Moro. It seems more like genuine guilt on his part for the sins of his people. He is their Prince to be fair, and was supposed to be Future King.

Problem is, that's not really shown through Vegeta's action. Sure we have multiple characters suggesting that Vegeta is largely concern with making amends for his own actions in the massacre of the Namekians, but there's nothing to suggest how he acts that he feels guilty. Just an acceptance of he is. He knows what he's doing now doesn't absolve him of his past crimes. He's going to hell and that's that.

[Zillamon51]

Who knows how the wish will turn out, but how strong is Granolah anyway?

He easily wipes out a whole squad of 73-type androids, who are stated to have been updated to be equivalent to the original. So that would make Granolah hella powerful.

But then, he gets owned by one of the Heeter gang. And the Heeters are aware of Frieza's return, but presumably not his godly power gains. They seem to think they're still dealing with Namek-level Frieza, which puts them (and Granolah) down in early-DBZ power tiers.

?????

[Koitsukai]

Who knows how the wish will turn out, but how strong is Granolah anyway?

He easily wipes out a whole squad of 73-type androids, who are stated to have been updated to be equivalent to the original. So that would make Granolah hella powerful.

But then, he gets owned by one of the Heeter gang. And the Heeters are aware of Frieza's return, but presumably not his godly power gains. They seem to think they're still dealing with Namek-level Frieza, which puts them (and Granolah) down in early-DBZ power tiers.

?????

I should re-read it, but didn't Granola say that now he thinks he could take on Freeza, but then Elecc told him that Freeza is much stronger now? Probably, they were talking about RoF 1st form Freeza's power level. I guess he must be somewhere between Namek Freeza and RoF Freeza.

[DiscountDabi]

Who knows how the wish will turn out, but how strong is Granolah anyway?

He easily wipes out a whole squad of 73-type androids, who are stated to have been updated to be equivalent to the original. So that would make Granolah hella powerful.

But then, he gets owned by one of the Heeter gang. And the Heeters are aware of Frieza's return, but presumably not his godly power gains. They seem to think they're still dealing with Namek-level Frieza, which puts them (and Granolah) down in early-DBZ power tiers.

?????

I should re-read it, but didn't Granola say that now he thinks he could take on Freeza, but then Elecc told him that Freeza is much stronger now? Probably, they were talking about RoF 1st form Freeza's power level. I guess he must be somewhere between Namek Freeza and RoF Freeza.

Well as shown in the Broly movie, Freeza doesn't even bother using his first form and just sits around in his final form. So thats likley what they are refering to.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I haven't seen anyone point this out yet, but the Oozaru in the bottom-left panel of page 8 appears to be Leek (Bardock's crewmate from Minus). He has the same scar and (Bulma style) armor.

This is interesting. Maybe this turns out to be not just a fanservice after all? This can connect directly to the Broly movie

I kinda hope Vegeta doesn't listen to the cat's advice atleast not fully. I believe Vegeta will let go of his past sins but won't fully embrace the path of destruction instead he'll sit in the middle and from that maybe he'll access a new level of strength???

I don't think Vegeta needs to fully embrace the path of destruction or just think about it like Beerus. This power is presented by the narrative as a "solution" to the guilt and regret that Vegeta is feeling. He needs to let go of those feelings to get stronger and gain Beerus' power

[batistabus]

Granolla defeated all of the OGs by sniping their weak spot. They did not have any powers copied. It's impressive since we know how troublesome Seven-three can be, but that doesn't mean that Granolla is stronger than a dozen Moros.

My guess is that he's currently weaker than Freeza pre-Super. Aside from sniping, he hasn't demonstrated otherwise.

[emperior]

Granolla defeated all of the OGs by sniping their weak spot. They did not have any powers copied. It's impressive since we know how troublesome Seven-three can be, but that doesn't mean that Granolla is stronger than a dozen Moros.

My guess is that he's currently weaker than Freeza pre-Super. Aside from sniping, he hasn't demonstrated otherwise.

Monaito also said that Granola is weaker than Freeza, and logically all he should know is Freeza’s 1st form power from way back then. In my opinion Granola at the moment is actually between Captain Ginyu and 1st form Freeza from Namek. He’s very weak which would explain why he still uses weapons.

By the way, nice catch on Oozaru Leek. I wonder if this is further proof that Bardock and his team will be mentioned in the story.

[DiscountDabi]

Granolla defeated all of the OGs by sniping their weak spot. They did not have any powers copied. It's impressive since we know how troublesome Seven-three can be, but that doesn't mean that Granolla is stronger than a dozen Moros.

My guess is that he's currently weaker than Freeza pre-Super. Aside from sniping, he hasn't demonstrated otherwise.

Monaito also said that Granola is weaker than Freeza, and logically all he should know is Freeza’s 1st form power from way back then. In my opinion Granola at the moment is actually between Captain Ginyu and 1st form Freeza from Namek. He’s very weak which would explain why he still uses weapons.

By the way, nice catch on Oozaru Leek. I wonder if this is further proof that Bardock and his team will be mentioned in the story.

I would argue that they are refering to current final form frieza since the end of the super anime and Broly movie showed that he didn't bother going back into his first form for the movie.

Although, in the manga art in chpter 42 it shows first form frieza. But then in the Bonus Pages it shows Final form Frieza. Eh, its all wierd.

[MCDaveG]

So it comes to this, huh? The power rank is so huge for Goku and Vegeta, that only way to get a stronger opponent is for Granola or anyone to wish to be the strongest by Dragon Balls... well, why not, even tho it is borderline stretch for me a bit.

But, how does it work? Will he be the strongest before Goku closes the gap and overcomes him? (boring... because of course he does)
Or, will his power gradually rise with development of others, to be the strongest warrior? (interesting)

Will he stay the same visually, just stronger?
Or will he undergo some visual transformation, to reflect the change? Body muscle, ice cream hair colour, or something else?

Looking forward to next chapter.

What I did like:

Spoiler:

Namekians are from different dimension thus Namek is not their point of origin and they can be on different planets. As I am rewatching the series again, this gives them again this aura of mysticism like with Piccolo Daimao being a demon and demon clan and they are not just plain aliens from different planet. I really like this, as in Z, it was great plot twist, that Piccolo/Kami is an alien, but now for me, it goes back and I take it as - sure, Namekians look different and don't originate on Earth, but they are not just aliens but species with magical powers from different dimension. Much like Buu for example. Awesome!

[Xeogran]

So it comes to this, huh? The power rank is so huge for Goku and Vegeta, that only way to get a stronger opponent is for Granola or anyone to wish to be the strongest by Dragon Balls... well, why not, even tho it is borderline stretch for me a bit. with magical powers from different dimension. Much like Buu for example. Awesome![/spoiler]

Nah not really, Toyotaro wouldn't dare to undermine the entire franchise by letting a 2 DB Shenron be able to grant that wish.