GT and misogyny

[goku the krump dancer]

That doesn’t make turning her into a damsel and refusing to let her go Super Saiyan to continue to fulfill that role less sexist.

Even if she did get Super Saiyan, she’d still get one shotted by Baby, Super 17 and Shenron, so what difference would that have made?

...then you focus on improving other aspects of the writing. Which you know...because it's right there in the post you just quoted.

Improve it in what way? So despite being the star of the show Goku isn’t the one saving the day? Even though he’s had help in beating every major villain accept Freeza on Namek? Post the 23rd tournament.

[MasenkoHA]

Pan was more relevant in GT than Vegeta was.

That doesn’t make turning her into a damsel and refusing to let her go Super Saiyan to continue to fulfill that role less sexist.

Even if she did get Super Saiyan, she’d still get one shotted by Baby, Super 17 and Shenron, so what difference would that have made?

You’re missing the forest for trees here. The problem isn’t that she didn’t go Super Saiyan, the problem is the explanation given by the show runner for why she didn’t go Super Saiyan.

[ABED]

That doesn’t make turning her into a damsel and refusing to let her go Super Saiyan to continue to fulfill that role less sexist.

Even if she did get Super Saiyan, she’d still get one shotted by Baby, Super 17 and Shenron, so what difference would that have made?

You’re missing the forest for trees here. The problem isn’t that she didn’t go Super Saiyan, the problem is the explanation given by the show runner for why she didn’t go Super Saiyan.

What was the explanation?

[goku the krump dancer]

From what I recall it was something to the effect of “Not being able to figure out a proper design for a female SS”. Which I can admit is a bit of cop out but not as some soft cover up for mysogyny or sexism but because they didn’t wanna just come out in say that had not real story plans for that to happen.

[JulieYBM]

Even if she did get Super Saiyan, she’d still get one shotted by Baby, Super 17 and Shenron, so what difference would that have made?

...then you focus on improving other aspects of the writing. Which you know...because it's right there in the post you just quoted.

Improve it in what way? So despite being the star of the show Goku isn’t the one saving the day? Even though he’s had help in beating every major villain accept Freeza on Namek? Post the 23rd tournament.

Improve it by not portraying women as weak and helpless or the emotional labor/MacGuffin of men.

Pan's portrayal is bad because she is one of a few women in the series and is also just there to be a man's damsel in distress or the vehicle of his character progress. That's bad. Women don't like this sort of thing.

[Lord Beerus]

Here's what Dragon Ball GT producer Kōzō Morishita said regarding Pan and her role in Dragon Ball GT:

"Pan’s role was to be strong but still lose to the enemies and then be rescued by Goku, to be a “heroine who makes Goku a hero”. To go off-topic a bit, even the hit movie Titanic moved women because it’s a story where the heroine (now an old woman) remembers the hero; isn’t that basic movie-making? If the hero doesn’t rescue the heroine, maybe adults will understand that life is like that too sometimes, but for children it becomes a very harsh story. Stories where the hero rescues the heroine have a sense of security. Therefore we created a pattern where Pan is imperiled and Goku gets mad at the enemy: “I won’t let you get away with this!”"

It gets even worse when he talks about Pan and her becoming a Super Saiyan...

"Dragon Ball GT has an episode where Pan is turned into a doll, but that episode established the pattern of “Pan sets the incident in motion while Goku resolves it”. So it would break that pattern to make Pan a Super Saiyan and strong. But perhaps Pan could have become a Super Saiyan if the episode where she was turned into a doll had been a later one."

Souce.

I think it's safe to say that Kōzō Morishita, at best, has some very conservative views about women, and at worst, is a full blown misogynist.

[ABED]

My issue with her is that's mostly what she amounts to. There's nothing inherently wrong with the damsel role just like there's nothing inherently interesting about badass female characters. It's all context dependent. I don't think turning her SSJ was a solution. I simply with the writers had given her a clearer coming of age arc. I say all this as someone who likes Pan.

[SupremeKai25]

Yikes. As someone who doesn't give a shit about Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla, reading these GT interviews really makes you appreciate more what Super has done with the U6 girls. They are all strong in their own rights and are absolutely treated as serious threats by the protagonists.

Also, LOL at this reason “Not being able to figure out a proper design for a female SS”... because naturally it's so hard to envision how a woman in Super Saiyan state would look like... such a massive design change would be required... behold:



Yeah, I can't even blame the GT writers and designers, coming up with a good design for a female Super Saiyan would have been way too much work. It's not like Super Saiyan is literally just a hair colour swap...

[Champa The Destroyer]

I do think Dragon Ball undersells men, but only insomuch as it doesn't really portray cool men...it portrays and focuses on a bunch of assholes because lolz. Such is the curse of never really wanting to be serious or think serious...or have emotions. It's toxic masculinity from Toriyama and others.

Agreed, I feel like what I'm about to say could be a bit off topic, but that's sorta what I like about Future Trunks (or at least in a lot of his characterization), is that he seems more open to showing emotion, and since his story calls for it, he has much more time to grieve, or cry, or anything like that when something traumatic happens, which is much different from most other characters, its refreshing to it not be looked down upon when he shows emotion.

Hell, I even liked that they showed Goku and Krillin briefly cry when Roshi almost died in the TOP, it's nice to see them show emotional vulnerability outside of anger.

That being said, I feel as if the negative portrayal of women in the series is much more blatant and egregious, especially in the original Dragon Ball, though its not much better in Z or GT.

[Koitsukai]

So, basically they said "she's there to serve as a device for Goku to do cool stuff, if we make an actual character out of her, she can't be used by the male protagonist to look like a hero. Remember Titanic? chicks loved that shit because the main bitch was hung up on a guy, the point is to tell children that girls can't protect themselves and depend on men".

This guy left no mysoginy box left to check lol. And to think the Z anime ended with a 3-year-old Pan beating Goten, implying hell of a potential.

[goku the krump dancer]

I think it's safe to say that Kōzō Morishita, at best, has some very conservative views about women, and at worst, is a full blown misogynist.

No, it isn’t safe to say that.. Some of you folks seriously downplay how serious of an accusation labeling someone sexist or mysogynist really is, especially in the current era.

Calling Pan’s role in GT mysogynistic is silly when literally all of the male characters where put in the exact same situation at some point through out the entire series, ESPECIALLY in GT and the dudes already were Older, more mature, more experienced AND Super Saiyans to boot.. Call it poor writing sure, but covert mysogyny? Not at all.

Besides unless her head is up her own ass, any woman who has a strong male figure in her life would want him to help save her if the situation called for it.

It’s natural instincts, That’s why when weirdo stalker man is coming, girlfriends call their boyfriends, wives call their husbands, sisters call their brothers, big sister calls for Dad and single women call the cops and for the most part is expecting male officers or at least yelling for help hoping for male assistance. There’s nothing wrong with that or at least it shouldn’t be.

Also Pan helped finish off General Rildo, #18 helped Goku beat Super 17, and if I’m not mistaken Pan helps beat a few of the Evil Dragons.. What more do you guys want?

[WittyUsername]

Remember Titanic? chicks loved that shit because the main bitch was hung up on a guy, the point is to tell children that girls can't protect themselves and depend on men".

That’s a very weird reading on the movie’s popularity.

[MasenkoHA]

Even if she did get Super Saiyan, she’d still get one shotted by Baby, Super 17 and Shenron, so what difference would that have made?

You’re missing the forest for trees here. The problem isn’t that she didn’t go Super Saiyan, the problem is the explanation given by the show runner for why she didn’t go Super Saiyan.

What was the explanation?

That she had a dynamic as being someone who needed to be rescued by Goku and her going Super Saiyan would ruin that.

[JulieYBM]

No, it isn’t safe to say that.. Some of you folks seriously downplay how serious of an accusation labeling someone sexist or mysogynist really is, especially in the current era.

Calling Pan’s role in GT mysogynistic is silly when literally all of the male characters where put in the exact same situation at some point through out the entire series, ESPECIALLY in GT and the dudes already were Older, more mature, more experienced AND Super Saiyans to boot.. Call it poor writing sure, but covert mysogyny? Not at all.

Besides unless her head is up her own ass, any woman who has a strong male figure in her life would want him to help save her if the situation called for it.

It’s natural instincts, That’s why when weirdo stalker man is coming, girlfriends call their boyfriends, wives call their husbands, sisters call their brothers, big sister calls for Dad and single women call the cops and for the most part is expecting male officers or at least yelling for help hoping for male assistance. There’s nothing wrong with that or at least it shouldn’t be.

Also Pan helped finish off General Rildo, #18 helped Goku beat Super 17, and if I’m not mistaken Pan helps beat a few of the Evil Dragons.. What more do you guys want?

Love to be called a hysterical woman because all women are hysterical and we're just making life harder on men and should chill out.

Also, not every woman has a man in their life. We don't just run to men, we run to our goddamned closest family.

[Soppa Saia People]

also like...it's really not a death sentence to call someone or something sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. a lot of men are casually sexist, a lot of white people are casually sexist, same with straight people and homophobia, cis people with transphobia, and all that. it's just how a lot of people are raised and societal stuff as a whole, it's not saying those people are scum or whatever.

[eledoremassis02]

Considering the Japanese culture tends to be much more conservative than our own (Okusan "my wife" literally refers to wives as "deep inside the house"), It's a surprise to me. Is it an excuse? No. But It's also their culture, whether we agree with it or now, and it's up to them to change it (and I feel they have made some strides).

Here is an anecdote that kinda wraps it up nicely

A few years back my Japanese friend and I were talking and I made a remark about how my mom went back to college after having kids to get a new degree. My friend was stunned and said that was weird because women don't do that in Japan, especially after having kids (or marriage).

When we compare this to Dragon Ball, Videl fits this well, she was a fighter who bested her father and become an Okusan at the tip of a hat. Chi Chi applies here and yet Bulma does not.

Now wind this mentality back 30 years and we get that quote about Pans character.

On the flip side, Gohan has been treated just as much as a Goku/Piccolo saving device for most of his character arc, even after going Super Saiyan and Mystic.

[Lord Beerus]

I think it's safe to say that Kōzō Morishita, at best, has some very conservative views about women, and at worst, is a full blown misogynist.

No, it isn’t safe to say that.. Some of you folks seriously downplay how serious of an accusation labeling someone sexist or mysogynist really is, especially in the current era.

Calling Pan’s role in GT mysogynistic is silly when literally all of the male characters where put in the exact same situation at some point through out the entire series, ESPECIALLY in GT and the dudes already were Older, more mature, more experienced AND Super Saiyans to boot.. Call it poor writing sure, but covert mysogyny? Not at all.

Besides unless her head is up her own ass, any woman who has a strong male figure in her life would want him to help save her if the situation called for it.

It’s natural instincts, That’s why when weirdo stalker man is coming, girlfriends call their boyfriends, wives call their husbands, sisters call their brothers, big sister calls for Dad and single women call the cops and for the most part is expecting male officers or at least yelling for help hoping for male assistance. There’s nothing wrong with that or at least it shouldn’t be.

Also Pan helped finish off General Rildo, #18 helped Goku beat Super 17, and if I’m not mistaken Pan helps beat a few of the Evil Dragons.. What more do you guys want?

It's easy to call Kōzō Morishita sexist, but that was the mentality he had when coming up with Pan's role in the show. His reasoning doesn't even make any sense in the context of plot of GT as even if Pan did become a SSJ she would have been still less powerful than Goku. So there was no harm in giving her the ability that she was genetically entitled to. Instead she was relegated to the "damsel in distress" because Kōzō Morishita thought Pan wouldn't have much agency in the narrative if a man didn't have to rescue her from a dangerous situation every time. That is such a regressive and patronising view to have.

[JulieYBM]

The paternalism exhibited by Morishita really is insulting. It's definitely something that bothers me, considering the scope of his involvement with Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

Like, guys, its okay to enjoy problematic material while also wanting fiction to do better. You don’t need to perform Olympic level mental gymnastics to explain how the writing in GT (or really Dragon Ball in general) wasn’t sexist because Pan had more screen time than a bunch of male characters because as we all know Twilight isn’t sexist because it has a main female character and was written by a woman therefore not sexist.

[Champa The Destroyer]

I think it's safe to say that Kōzō Morishita, at best, has some very conservative views about women, and at worst, is a full blown misogynist.

No, it isn’t safe to say that.. Some of you folks seriously downplay how serious of an accusation labeling someone sexist or mysogynist really is, especially in the current era.

Calling Pan’s role in GT mysogynistic is silly when literally all of the male characters where put in the exact same situation at some point through out the entire series, ESPECIALLY in GT and the dudes already were Older, more mature, more experienced AND Super Saiyans to boot.. Call it poor writing sure, but covert mysogyny? Not at all.

Besides unless her head is up her own ass, any woman who has a strong male figure in her life would want him to help save her if the situation called for it.

It’s natural instincts, That’s why when weirdo stalker man is coming, girlfriends call their boyfriends, wives call their husbands, sisters call their brothers, big sister calls for Dad and single women call the cops and for the most part is expecting male officers or at least yelling for help hoping for male assistance. There’s nothing wrong with that or at least it shouldn’t be.

Also Pan helped finish off General Rildo, #18 helped Goku beat Super 17, and if I’m not mistaken Pan helps beat a few of the Evil Dragons.. What more do you guys want?

I feel as if people in situations of danger call people closest to them or those they trust the most, regardless of gender? I've heard more stories of women calling their best friend, than I have of them calling any random male friend.

And not just because of GT's portrayal, but in addition to the quote as well, I would say that their mindset is at the very least much more outdated than what's common or acceptable.