GT and misogyny

[Matches Malone]

FYI: I am technically part of LGBTQ and dating a (minority) Asian. So now what do you have to say for yourself?

People like him always get caught calling someone anti (insert here), only for said person to be part of that group.

[VegettoEX]

Folks, I'm just getting word that we've unfortunately had to cancel a few members. The management apologizes for this inconvenience, though it can't be helped.

[SupremeKai25]

The characters certainly could've been better written but I definitely wouldn't call them overpowered.

They were extremely overpowered, as they were able to individually force Goku to not only use SsjG, but Blue as well. Fused, they pushed him to UI. 2 newly reached Ssj2s had no business pushing him beyond 3. I do give the manga credit for bringing things down to a more believable level by having Kefla fight Gohan instead, as that's more reasonable. That's not to say they shouldn't be on Blue's level, but it should be earned over time. I do have the same issue with others being that strong, so it's not exclusive to them.

Do you also have a problem with Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 as toddlers? Would you say that these two children are "ovepowered" and badly-written?

[Matches Malone]

Do you also have a problem with Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 as toddlers? Would you say that these two children are "ovepowered" and badly-written?

I do actually, I've mentioned it multiple times. I don't think they were badly written in the Buu arc, but they were definitely overpowered. Not as overpowered as Kale and Culifla, but still stronger than they should've been.

[SupremeKai25]

Do you also have a problem with Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 as toddlers? Would you say that these two children are "ovepowered" and badly-written?

I do actually, I've mentioned it multiple times. I don't think they were badly written in the Buu arc, but they were definitely overpowered. Not as overpowered as Kale and Culifla, but still stronger than they should've been.

Why DON'T you think they were badly written in the Buu arc? If your basis for why Kale and Caulifla are badly written is that they reached these Super Saiyan levels so quickly, then why are Goten and Trunks not equally terrible?

Reminder that Goten and Trunks reached Super Saiyan level as toddlers, and then reached Super Saiyan 3 in the fusion known as Gotenks, and were keeping up with and cornered Majin Buu (the most powerful enemy up to that point, an ancient demon of destruction who has been around since forever).

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

I don't even like Super (Anime) and I can easily say Goten and Trunks Super Saiyan was written poorly.

[Matches Malone]

Why DON'T you think they were badly written in the Buu arc? If your basis for why Kale and Caulifla are badly written is that they reached these Super Saiyan levels so quickly...

That's not the only reason why I think they're badly written, I also don't like their personalities. Caulifla acts worse than Cell arc Vegeta, and Kale is just a cheap Broly copy. Even if their powers were balanced, it still wouldn't fix their terrible personalities. Goten and Trunks may be stronger than I'd like them to be, but their presence on screen never annoyed me. With that said, fanboys shouldn't try to justify mistakes made today because they were made in the past as well.

[SupremeKai25]

Why DON'T you think they were badly written in the Buu arc? If your basis for why Kale and Caulifla are badly written is that they reached these Super Saiyan levels so quickly...

That's not the only reason why I think they're badly written, I also don't like their personalities. Caulifla acts worse than Cell arc Vegeta, and Kale is just a cheap Broly copy. Even if their powers were balanced, it still wouldn't fix their terrible personalities. Goten and Trunks may be stronger than I'd like them to be, but their presence on screen never annoyed me. With that said, fanboys shouldn't try to justify mistakes made today because they were made in the past as well.

I'm not a fanboy of these people at all, it's just a paradox that puzzles me to this day. People complain that Kale and Caulifla "cheapened" the Super Saiyan form, but Goten, Trunks, even Cabba already did that before. Vegeta even said in Z that Super Saiyan had become a bargaining sale, since two toddlers were able to achieve it. The show was self-aware of the fact that that form had lost all its meaning.

As for their personalities, I don't care about Kale, I find her cringe, but Caulifla is entertaining. I like how she makes the boomers like Vegeta mad. She has an entertaining personality, but then again I enjoy these characters who make people salty. It's literally part of her character anyway, you claim she's badly written because she doesn't respect the boomers Goku and Vegeta, but that's literally her personality. She's a punk who doesn't want to follow or respect anyone, although she has a soft spot for her comrade Kale.

[JulieYBM]

Caulifla doesn't do anything near as bad as Cell arc Vegeta. She takes on challenges head-on and then loses with grace. Vegeta fucking lets Cell become complete because he's an asshole.

[jjgp1112]

I like Caulifla well enough, but Kale checks all of the boxes for a character type I absolutely despise. The spineless, clingy, obsessive weirdo whom we're expected to sympathize with. And a rip-off on top of that. No thanks.

[Planetnamek]

FYI: I am technically part of LGBTQ and dating a (minority) Asian. So now what do you have to say for yourself?

People like him always get caught calling someone anti (insert here), only for said person to be part of that group.

Seems awfully convenient to me, i'm not buying it for one microsecond and even if it is true, being LGBTQ and dating someone of another race does not automatically mean someone cannot be a bigot(gamergater Milo being the perfect example along with Bret Easton Ellis and Blair White).

Glad this person got temp-banned(and honestly hope they never come back), frankly i'm glad I went to bed before his last insane Rush-Limbaugh-esque post.

In case there are any other would-be trolls that want to try and repeat that nonsense i'm going to thoroughly debunk his last post here.

I think that whole thing about them being LGBTQ and dating an Asian person was just a lie to attempt to shield themselves from further criticism as i've noticed that's a common tactic trolls use when submitting angry emails to progressive websites like The Root or just get cornered in general-act as though they are a minority and/or LGBTQ person angry at liberals in a thinly-veiled attempt to attack those groups without getting called out on their ignorant views.

Anyone that thinks that you couldn't make Star Wars or other films like that today is delusional.

Also a tip for anyone new on here-if you get on the "any criticism of my ignorant statements somehow equals attacking me!" train, then you've clearly demonstrated then you are incapable of having a rational conversation or debate. Claiming people are indoctrinated just because they do not mindlessly agree with you and your bogus opinions is not in any way rational.

Ad-hominem does not mean calling out ignorant statements made by a person.

If you believe that anyone that criticizes a show like DBZ for its outdated elements is somehow indoctrinated and you believe that any show that does not mindlessly agree with your views is somehow propaganda, then yes you are my enemy.

Also still don't believe that Kale and Caulifla are overpowered in the least, if they were dudes I have a feeling people wouldn't be making that argument.

[JulieYBM]

Kale and Caulifla would not get the hate they do now if they were men. It's because they are women and meant to represent an oft-maligned group that scumbag tiresome wind up attracted to them to complain irrationally about things that work within the narrative and needs of the story to achieve their desired effect.

[SupremeKai25]

What did I say like 15 pages ago? "They wouldn't get so much hate if they were men."

I have been saying this since the beginning, and it's such a simple thing to understand.

If Caulifla were a submissive little boy like Cabba, she wouldn't be getting nearly as much hate. People don't hate that she asspulled the Super Saiyan form (LOL, it's not like that form stopped being relevant during the Vegeta vs. 18 fight... and Cabba literally asspull'd it too), people hate that Caulifla is a woman who doesn't bend to Vegeta like the little Cabba does. It's that simple.

Or here's the alternative: If you genuinely hate Caulifla and Kale because they got Super Saiyan too easily, then you must also be willing to admit that Z messed up MASSIVELY when it gave Goten and Trunks the SS forms so easily.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, men definitely hate being challenged by women. Men on the internet love trying to beat other men into submission over whatever dumb shit they want to argue about and this translates into beating women into submission, too, only there's an overt layer of misogyny and sexuality at play because they're raised to think women must always submit to men. This is why men resent women in 'their' media (which is really only just generic media aimed at a mass market), ignore or attack women's spaces and are so offended when women don't let them have the final word.

[Matches Malone]

Glad this person got temp-banned and honestly hope they never come back.

Also a tip for anyone new on here-if you get on the "any criticism of my ignorant statements somehow equals attacking me!" train, then you've clearly demonstrated then you are incapable of having a rational conversation or debate.

Still don't believe that Kale and Caulifla are overpowered in the least, if they were dudes I have a feeling people wouldn't be making that argument.

Banning him pretty much proved his point about cancel culture. I don't run the site or make decisions, so maybe there was something else going on with him that I don't know of, but banning for his posts here seems like overkill.

Banning people doesn't exactly give them a chance to have a debate or conversation.

Trunks is a "dude" and has been criticized to oblivion for his power in the Black arc, same for Freeza and others.

[JulieYBM]

Cancel culture doesn't harm the powerful and privileged. It doesn't exist unless you're a marginalized person who decides to make a dumb joke or say something edgy for the hell of it.

Getting banned from a dumb cartoon fan forum isn't cancellation. You can just go elsewhere.

Frankly, there is no debate. It's not debatable that Dragon Ball poorly represents women, it's a goddamned fact.

[CuppaKofe]

I honestly hope we see more of Kale and Caulifla, and that they don't just turn into another example of "massively powered up characters who serve the purpose of showing how strong Goku is in comparison" like Goten and Trunks / Gotenks in Z. I really like Caulifla's character, but with Kale I'd hope they could get her past the whole Broly retread thing. The bond she has with Caulifla is the most interesting aspect, and seeing her learn to control her rage and insecurities with not being good enough would be neat; something we haven't really seen since Gohan's training with Piccolo.

Anything is better than just being ANOTHER supporting female cast member who becomes unimportant after Goku defeats the big bad. The shit they did with 18 after the Cell arc was REALLY disappointing, though they bounced back a BIT in Super. Videl though... ugh.

Glad this person got temp-banned and honestly hope they never come back.

Also a tip for anyone new on here-if you get on the "any criticism of my ignorant statements somehow equals attacking me!" train, then you've clearly demonstrated then you are incapable of having a rational conversation or debate.

Still don't believe that Kale and Caulifla are overpowered in the least, if they were dudes I have a feeling people wouldn't be making that argument.

Banning him pretty much proved his point about cancel culture. I don't run the site or make decisions, so maybe there was something else going on with him that I don't know of, but banning for his posts here seems like overkill.

Banning people doesn't exactly give them a chance to have a debate or conversation.

Trunks is a "dude" and has been criticized to oblivion for his power in the Black arc, same for Freeza and others.

Looking back at his posts, they read like some real bad faith trolling. I feel like that has more to do with the banning than some 'cancel culture' bullshit.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, even to this day, like what? 6 months ago was it when a manga chapter had Roshi trying to rape those girls in Moro's gang? denying the latent misogyny is just being foolish and blind, at best.

Even the anime acknowledged it and tried to "fix" Roshi's depraved nature. It makes no sense for someone to say that's non-existent.

[Planetnamek]

Glad this person got temp-banned and honestly hope they never come back.

Also a tip for anyone new on here-if you get on the "any criticism of my ignorant statements somehow equals attacking me!" train, then you've clearly demonstrated then you are incapable of having a rational conversation or debate.

Still don't believe that Kale and Caulifla are overpowered in the least, if they were dudes I have a feeling people wouldn't be making that argument.

Banning him pretty much proved his point about cancel culture. I don't run the site or make decisions, so maybe there was something else going on with him that I don't know of, but banning for his posts here seems like overkill.

Banning people doesn't exactly give them a chance to have a debate or conversation.

Trunks is a "dude" and has been criticized to oblivion for his power in the Black arc, same for Freeza and others.

No banning him was the right call as he made it clear he was not here to engage in any kind of good-faith discussion and he bristled any time someone corrected his ignorant views.

Some people do not deserve a chance, especially not if they have opinions that are flat out wrong(like COVID being a hoax, which is a dangerous myth to promote because it gets people killed, nobody like that deserves any kind of chance at all)

I've not seen Trunks got anywhere near the level of criticism that female fighters got in DBZ so i'm not buying it.

[Matches Malone]

Some people do not deserve a chance, especially not if they have opinions that are flat out wrong(like COVID being a hoax, which is a dangerous myth to promote because it gets people killed, nobody like that deserves any kind of chance at all)

I've not seen Trunks got anywhere near the level of criticism that female fighters got in DBZ so i'm not buying it.

I don't see how disagreeing with the way some characters are written is the same as telling people not to worry about Covid. The whole purpose of the forums is to see the various view points fans have about things, so banning people because their opinions don't line up with the popular ones goes against the point of having a discussion. In regards to this particular topic, I agree that female characters haven't been handled the best in DB, but I wouldn't ban anyone who thinks otherwise.

Whether or not you buy it is irrelevant, fans have been complaining about Trunks and Freeza's power levels in Super for years.