GT and misogyny

[ABED]

But like I said, with Goten and Trunks, even though their transformations ARE asspulls, the story even portrays it as such - what makes it somewhat work is that the entire presence of their transformation ability completely undercuts what the audience and characters believe about the transformation. It's a punchline. And then these two brats proceed to treat it like a cool toy. It's trivialization is actually part of the story to function as a joke about the insane power achievements in Dragon Ball.

On top of that, you can buy that they only pulled it off because their fathers had the ability when they conceived them.

Yep and why I've come to like that aspect. I like when storytellers see a pattern in their own writing and hang a lantern on it. I think comparing their feats or the U6 Saiyans' is a mistake as it's a different point in the story and as more Super Saiyans were added, the inherently less special it was and trying to portray it with as much importance would be counterproductive.

[Cursed Lemon]

You know, they could've just...already been super saiyans.

Like, that would've been fine.

[jjgp1112]

You know, they could've just...already been super saiyans.

Like, that would've been fine.

Yeah, I agree. An off-screen transformation with a throwaway "I got angry" explanation is better than this

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't call Vegeta's SS unlocking silly or just a tantrum.

That "toy" he is crying about isn't just the shinny new thing he saw on TV, it's THE toy he's been waiting to get since birth and according to Freeza what he's been talking always about, his father always treated him like he's the one, he's been entitled to it by the most important members of his race, he actually thinks he is the one, and then he finds out he is not, and was even killed in the process. He confronts the notion that everything he's believed in was false, and the Prince has to bow down to a low class warrior. And we already know how prideful and full of himself he is.

[ABED]

I don't know why anyone is bothered by any of the U6 Saiyans learning SSJ quicker than their U7 counterparts. Goku learns the Kamehameha after seeing it once when it took Muten Roshi 50 years to develop it. This is in effect the same thing. Goku figured it out on his own, making it easier for the next gen to learn it because they aren't having to start from scratch.

I wouldn't call Vegeta's SS unlocking silly or just a tantrum.

That "toy" he is crying about isn't just the shinny new thing he saw on TV, it's THE toy he's been waiting to get since birth and according to Freeza what he's been talking always about, his father always treated him like he's the one, he's been entitled to it by the most important members of his race, he actually thinks he is the one, and then he finds out he is not, and was even killed in the process. He confronts the notion that everything he's believed in was false, and the Prince has to bow down to a low class warrior. And we already know how prideful and full of himself he is.

This isn't disproving the point. Vegeta feels entitled to that power - like a brat. He was told he was special and gets frustrated by the idea that it just might not be the case.

[Koitsukai]

I don't know why anyone is bothered by any of the U6 Saiyans learning SSJ quicker than their U7 counterparts. Goku learns the Kamehameha after seeing it once when it took Muten Roshi 50 years to develop it. This is in effect the same thing. Goku figured it out on his own, making it easier for the next gen to learn it because they aren't having to start from scratch.

I wouldn't call Vegeta's SS unlocking silly or just a tantrum.

That "toy" he is crying about isn't just the shinny new thing he saw on TV, it's THE toy he's been waiting to get since birth and according to Freeza what he's been talking always about, his father always treated him like he's the one, he's been entitled to it by the most important members of his race, he actually thinks he is the one, and then he finds out he is not, and was even killed in the process. He confronts the notion that everything he's believed in was false, and the Prince has to bow down to a low class warrior. And we already know how prideful and full of himself he is.

This isn't disproving the point. Vegeta feels entitled to that power - like a brat. He was told he was special and gets frustrated by the idea that it just might not be the case.

What's silly in feeling humillated by everybody and having everything you ever believed in being untrue? being immature is besides the point.

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm pretty sure if you made a Venn diagram of 1) the people who are miffed at the U6 saiyans learning SSJ so fast, and 2) the people who are miffed at Goten and Trunks hitting SSJ so quickly but then doing dick all for the rest of the series, it would be a circle. If something is ironic in a disappointing way, it's not lampshading, it's just bad writing.

[ABED]

What's silly in feeling humillated by everybody and having everything you ever believed in being untrue? being immature is besides the point.

It's silly because it all boils down to what he believed in was he was a very special boy. What he believed in was a ridiculous sense of entitlement and deserved to be brought down a peg. It's good writing because it's appropriate for his character, but that doesn't mean it's not childish.

His reason for getting so upset is because he had to confront the truth that he might not be the special boy his father told him he was. He got what he wanted because he got so mad he got what he wanted. Why is that meaningful but channeling ones mystical energy in one's body not? Is it the spot that they find ridiculous? That I kinda get. Is it that it a run of the mill "retcon" that bothers them so much?

If something is ironic in a disappointing way, it's not lampshading, it's just bad writing.

Why is that bad writing? What's so bad about U6 learning so quickly? Did our main characters not learn quickly? Pretty sure they did.

[Adamant]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

[Cursed Lemon]

Why is that bad writing? What's so bad about U6 learning so quickly? Did our main characters not learn quickly? Pretty sure they did.

Are you one of those people who quotes a section of a post to rebuke and then ignores the rest of the post which already answered your question

Because you seem like one of those people

[SupremeKai25]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

But it's still present. It exists. It is present in the story. It is an acknowledged fact in the story. Gag or not, it still happened and is canon. So it's an acknowledged story fact that Super Saiyan is a cheap form even toddlers can reach.

[ABED]

Why is that bad writing? What's so bad about U6 learning so quickly? Did our main characters not learn quickly? Pretty sure they did.

Are you one of those people who quotes a section of a post to rebuke and then ignores the rest of the post which already answered your question

Because you seem like one of those people

I didn't see the part where you showed that them learning quickly is somehow different than what our main characters have done. I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I get it. I did see that you believe Trunks and Goten getting a form that was once special and then doing nothing isn't an positive example of calling attention to an overused element in a story. However, I'm not convinced they had to "do something" for the lampshade to be good writing. The transformation by that point had already been devalued long before Trunks and Goten.showed up.

[Adamant]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

But it's still present. It exists. It is present in the story. It is an acknowledged fact in the story. Gag or not, it still happened and is canon. So it's an acknowledged story fact that Super Saiyan is a cheap form even toddlers can reach.

Yes, and you're supposed to laugh at the ridiculousness of how this used to be a form that had become legendary due to nobody ever attaining it until Goku went through absolute hell and hit the pinnacle of frustration and anger after being psychologically tortured by space Hitler and made to watch his bst friend get executed in front of him... and now two little kids just gained it by stubbing their toes or something else equally minor that they can't even remember. That's the entire point. It was cheapened beyond the point of being anticlimactic for the sake of humor.

[Koitsukai]

What's silly in feeling humillated by everybody and having everything you ever believed in being untrue? being immature is besides the point.

It's silly because it all boils down to what he believed in was he was a very special boy. What he believed in was a ridiculous sense of entitlement and deserved to be brought down a peg. It's good writing because it's appropriate for his character, but that doesn't mean it's not childish.

His reason for getting so upset is because he had to confront the truth that he might not be the special boy his father told him he was. He got what he wanted because he got so mad he got what he wanted. Why is that meaningful but channeling ones mystical energy in one's body not? Is it the spot that they find ridiculous? That I kinda get. Is it that it a run of the mill "retcon" that bothers them so much?

That's part of his journey, you might dislike it or call it what you want, but is still his journey and is backed up by many things, even by events in the Broly movie, it didn't come out of nowhere. His sense of entitlement, which is like 90% of his personality, gets fucked in the ass, it's not a kid wanting something new, it was his entire persona getting destroyed, literally because he died too. There's no absurdity in the characters giving value to their personal beliefs, whatever you or I feel about them is meaningless.

Personal frustation is not silly or absurd, actually is a pretty big deal in real life, who says it can't be as well in a cartoon?

The I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA is just a DBZA meme.

[ABED]

What's silly in feeling humillated by everybody and having everything you ever believed in being untrue? being immature is besides the point.

It's silly because it all boils down to what he believed in was he was a very special boy. What he believed in was a ridiculous sense of entitlement and deserved to be brought down a peg. It's good writing because it's appropriate for his character, but that doesn't mean it's not childish.

His reason for getting so upset is because he had to confront the truth that he might not be the special boy his father told him he was. He got what he wanted because he got so mad he got what he wanted. Why is that meaningful but channeling ones mystical energy in one's body not? Is it the spot that they find ridiculous? That I kinda get. Is it that it a run of the mill "retcon" that bothers them so much?

That's part of his journey, you might dislike it or call it what you want, but is still his journey and is backed up by many things, even by events in the Broly movie, it didn't came out of nowhere. His sense of entitlement, which is like 90% of his personality, gets fucked in the ass, it's not a kid wanting something new, it was his entire persona getting destroyed, literally because he died too. There's no absurdity in the characters giving value to their personal beliefs, whatever you or I feel about them is meaningless.

Personal frustation is not silly or absurd, actually is a pretty big deal in real life, who says it can't be as well in a cartoon?

The I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA is just a DBZA meme.

Personal frustration can be absurd when what he wants is because he feels entitled to it by virtue of being born. And there is absurdity in people giving value to their beliefs is those beliefs are stupid. I didn't say I disliked it. I said it was silly. I'm fine with silly.

Um, what you and I think about this issue does have meaning. It's what gives any story meaning, how we respond to it.

It's appropriate for his character but is not a good example of someone having a great reason for transforming. It's an example of good characterization, but it's not righteous rage.

[jjgp1112]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

Hell, it goes back to Dr. Slump even. It didn't really dawn on me until I started reading the manga more closely.

[Koitsukai]

Personal frustration can be absurd when what he wants is because he feels entitled to it by virtue of being born. And there is absurdity in people giving value to their beliefs is those beliefs are stupid. I didn't say I disliked it. I said it was silly. I'm fine with silly.

Um, what you and I think about this issue does have meaning. It's what gives any story meaning, how we respond to it.

It's not just by virtue of being born, it isn't a rich kid thinking his daddy's employees are his butlers, it's the strongest saiyan that ever lived -up to a certain point- failing to live up to his own standards.

And it does not have any meaning when it comes to how important something is to a character. Just like it doesn't matter if WE care about Paragus when Broly goes SS, only he needs to love him to feel the loss and break his limits, not us. He is the going SS, not us.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Why is that bad writing? What's so bad about U6 learning so quickly? Did our main characters not learn quickly? Pretty sure they did.

Are you one of those people who quotes a section of a post to rebuke and then ignores the rest of the post which already answered your question

Because you seem like one of those people

I dont think he is. It's just that the loading of the page would get unwieldy with oversized quotes filling it.

[ABED]

Personal frustration can be absurd when what he wants is because he feels entitled to it by virtue of being born. And there is absurdity in people giving value to their beliefs is those beliefs are stupid. I didn't say I disliked it. I said it was silly. I'm fine with silly.

Um, what you and I think about this issue does have meaning. It's what gives any story meaning, how we respond to it.

It's not just by virtue of being born, it isn't a rich kid thinking his daddy's employees are his butlers, it's the strongest saiyan that ever lived -up to a certain point- failing to live up to his own standards.

And it does not have any meaning when it comes to how important something is to a character. Just like it doesn't matter if WE care about Paragus when Broly goes SS, only he needs to love him to feel the loss and break his limits, not us. He is the going SS, not us.

It is exactly like that. Vegeta is explicit about this. Saiyan culture is a caste system where people's value is determined by their strength and no matter how much you work at it, you aren't supposed to be able to move up. He was upset he couldn't get what he thinks is his birthright.

Meaning is determined by the audience. It matters how we react because that is the purpose of a story, to get the audience to emotionally react. If we don't care, then it doesn't matter how upset or sad the characters get.

Anyway, I've said what I can about Vegeta's transformation and how I find it to be not such a great example of a transformation feeling earned. Caulifla and Kale learned it faster but we're how many decades into the story? Surely teaching a transformation like this would be that much easier and yet I see such resistance to them getting it so quickly.

[SupremeKai25]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

But it's still present. It exists. It is present in the story. It is an acknowledged fact in the story. Gag or not, it still happened and is canon. So it's an acknowledged story fact that Super Saiyan is a cheap form even toddlers can reach.

Yes, and you're supposed to laugh at the ridiculousness of how this used to be a form that had become legendary due to nobody ever attaining it until Goku went through absolute hell and hit the pinnacle of frustration and anger after being psychologically tortured by space Hitler and made to watch his bst friend get executed in front of him... and now two little kids just gained it by stubbing their toes or something else equally minor that they can't even remember. That's the entire point. It was cheapened beyond the point of being anticlimactic for the sake of humor.

It's a gag that turned Super Saiyan into a joke. So what's the problem with Caulifla getting a joke form in 1 episode?

You said it yourself, Super Saiyan was turned into a meme joke via that gag. Which I agree with, but evidently some people have a problem with Caulifla getting that "oh so legendary" form in 1 episode.