GT and misogyny

[Adamant]

The issue with Videl is not that she didn’t become one of the main fighters it is how she was completely diminished

When she was introduced she helped fight crime in between her High School lessons. She meets Gohan and he teaches her to fly. Then both of them enter the tournament and Videl gets horribly beat up by Spopovich. After this Videl’s role in the story is basically over.

But this is pretty much every character.
Yamucha stops being relevant after the initial Dragonball hunt and becomes the series' designated punching bag after that.
Kuririn is the same as Videl in that he gets focus as long as there's no actual villain to fight since they're both fighters that are too weak to actually be of use in a fight.
Tenshinhan is the primary focus character of the arc that introduces him, and then goes on to hang out in the background in the rest of the series.

Just like these three, Videl was a relevant focus character for the slice of life high school/tournament arc that introduced her, and which she was created for, and then the story shifts into a new arc where all the non-Saiyan characters from any previous arcs are left behind, occasionally getting some moments when the story isn't focused on the new villains they're not capable of doing anything with.

It’s just that once she marries Gohan, she is Gohan’s wife and nothing more. She is completely diminished as a character.

Once she marries Gohan the story is over. It's literally just a footnote that had to be incorporated in later sequel series because it was still something that happened.

[MyVisionity]

She had several fun moments in Boo arc as well but It seems like you won't be satisfied until the final boss of a major arc happens to be female. Which... Eh I guess could be interesting in that its aesthetically different but that's all it is, aesthetics. Giving Freeza, Cell and Boo titties and curvy hips isnt gonna make them any more or less interesting than they already are.

Having a female in a space that has been historically male-dominated, male-centered, and male-identified is far more than simply aesthetics or "titties and curvy hips". Representation isn't bound by how interesting something is or isn't.

That sounds like a contradiction, you say having a girl in a guy dominated playing field stands for more than just aesthetics ( I get that) but then you say representation isn't bound by something being interesting? SO if something is there for the sake of being there with no purpose than it might as well not be there at all. If Jiren were changed to Jenny people would still call her a shitty character but I guess it'd be "progressive" because she'd have a vag?

I mean that the point of representation isn't making something more interesting. Of course that would be even better if it were interesting, but just because the representation happens to be uninteresting doesn't make it any less valuable or important. It's value is based on much more than that.

When she was introduced she helped fight crime in between her High School lessons. She meets Gohan and he teaches her to fly. Then both of them enter the tournament and Videl gets horribly beat up by Spopovich. After this Videl’s role in the story is basically over.

To be fair though after this the story itself was over. Would Toriyama have done anything with Videl had the series entered into another saga? It's possible that her character wasn't designed to endure past the initial arc. Maybe that's part of why Super doesn't do anything with her beyond the housewife nonsense.

[Kinokima]

To bring up ABED’s point though, there was really no room for her to do anything other than what she managed to do. The story would have to completely twist itself around in an unnatural way just to accommodate her. Even the more experienced human characters were useless on the battle field in the Boo arc.

There were no subtle hints or anything that eluded to some bigger plan for her that just got dropped because “girls suck”.

Hell even if 18 tagged along instead of Krillin, she either would’ve got spat on anyway or beaten to near death by Fat Boo.But then you miss out on her tournament antics which were pretty fun in their own right.

So a girl who fights crime as a High School student is just going to become a House Wife?

I already suggested things they could have done with Videl. They could make her a cop or a martial arts teacher like her father. I never said she has to be one of the main fighters. But they could show she has a role outside of Gohan.

The fact that she gets horribly beat up and then immediately after that leaves the story because she can’t keep up is not being treated like the “other humans” .

[Adamant]

The fact that she gets horribly beat up and then immediately after that leaves the story because she can’t keep up is not being treated like the “other humans” .

Yamucha: Gets horribly beaten by Jackie Chun and immediately leaves the story.
Kuririn: Also gets horribly beaten by Jackie Chun and immediately leaves the story, occasionally poking his head back in when no villains are around only to get horribly beat again when a villain DOES show up, then leaves once more.
Tenshinhan: Gets horribly beat by Drum and immediately leaves the story.

[goku the krump dancer]

Not to mention Yamcha gets his chest ripped through by Gero only to out right call himself useless and sits out of the story only to be extra motivation for Gohan to get mad. He never truly expected to fight Cell. Then he sits out for the rest of the series until his running gag in the Tournament of power.

If you count the movies, movie 12 and 13 imply that Videl ended doing cute Saiyaman stuff with Gohan, which is a neat idea and adds some spice to their relationship.

There’s nothing wrong with being a house wife by the way.. idk why some of you are acting like it’s slavery or a death sentence.

Having a female in a space that has been historically male-dominated, male-centered, and male-identified is far more than simply aesthetics or "titties and curvy hips". Representation isn't bound by how interesting something is or isn't.

That sounds like a contradiction, you say having a girl in a guy dominated playing field stands for more than just aesthetics ( I get that) but then you say representation isn't bound by something being interesting? SO if something is there for the sake of being there with no purpose than it might as well not be there at all. If Jiren were changed to Jenny people would still call her a shitty character but I guess it'd be "progressive" because she'd have a vag?

I mean that the point of representation isn't making something more interesting. Of course that would be even better if it were interesting, but just because the representation happens to be uninteresting doesn't make it any less valuable or important. It's value is based on much more than that.

This almost defeats the purpose of the entire thread. So it’s better that other races/genders just be there in the background as opposed to trying to do something with them only to potentially kinda mess it up? That’s a cowards way to go.

I didn’t set off any fire works when the black lady gave Krillin a pen. So I don’t see how or why someone of the LGBT community would jump for joy because a background character was wearing short shorts and a rainbow tank top. Oh look it’s a gay guy or a transman or a non binary male.. Soooo? Oh wait why does he have to be gay? Straight guys where Tie Dye all the time and LGBT folks wear more than just Rainbow apparel.

[KBABZ]

Not sure what you mean, up until the Zamasu Arc and The Tournament of Power she was the only reoccurring character from the Android storyline.

That's true, but Chi-Chi is also a recurring fighter and what do we know her for best? Similarly, 18 is more known today as Krillin's Wife than the woman who broke Vegeta's arm. Heck MID-WAY into her own Arc she completely loses any fight in her and just stands around gawking for 5 episodes while Cell fights and absorbs her brother.

The point of Ultra Instinct is that it’s this legendary technique that even the Gods seek out. Goku being able to learn the technique is treated as a monumental occasion that earns him the respect of the Gods. If every member of the Dragon Team started using it, it would completely devalue it.

So basically it's Super Saiyan from the Namek Arc but it isn't exclusive to Saiyans. We've been here before.

[Adamant]

That's true, but Chi-Chi is also a recurring fighter and what do we know her for best

Chichi isn't a "recurring fighter", she's a minor side character most readers had probably forgotten about that was brought back from nonexistence so she could become the mother of the son Toriyama had decided Goku should have because he had done a "what's marriage?" gag with her back then.

[KBABZ]

That's true, but Chi-Chi is also a recurring fighter and what do we know her for best

Chichi isn't a "recurring fighter", she's a minor side character most readers had probably forgotten about that was brought back from nonexistence so she could become the mother of the son Toriyama had decided Goku should have because he had done a "what's marriage?" gag with her back then.

Technically she fought Goku at the 23rd TB first, THEN Gohan showed up.

[Adamant]

That's true, but Chi-Chi is also a recurring fighter and what do we know her for best

Chichi isn't a "recurring fighter", she's a minor side character most readers had probably forgotten about that was brought back from nonexistence so she could become the mother of the son Toriyama had decided Goku should have because he had done a "what's marriage?" gag with her back then.

Technically she fought Goku at the 23rd TB first, THEN Gohan showed up.

Even more technically, Toriyama decided she'd be the person to be the mother of Goku's son first, THEN she made her reappearance in the manga and fought Goku at the 23rd TB, THEN Gohan showed up.

Had Toriyama picked someone else for that role, you'd never have seen Chichi again outside of maybe a tiny cameo at the end of the series like the one Sno got.

[jjgp1112]

That's true, but Chi-Chi is also a recurring fighter and what do we know her for best

Chichi isn't a "recurring fighter", she's a minor side character most readers had probably forgotten about that was brought back from nonexistence so she could become the mother of the son Toriyama had decided Goku should have because he had done a "what's marriage?" gag with her back then.

Technically she fought Goku at the 23rd TB first, THEN Gohan showed up.

And what exactly was her purpose for fighting at the 23rd TB, again???

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

There’s nothing wrong with being a house wife by the way.. idk why some of you are acting like it’s slavery or a death sentence.

When all the women become that while the men remain strong that is not equality.

[MyVisionity]

That sounds like a contradiction, you say having a girl in a guy dominated playing field stands for more than just aesthetics ( I get that) but then you say representation isn't bound by something being interesting? SO if something is there for the sake of being there with no purpose than it might as well not be there at all. If Jiren were changed to Jenny people would still call her a shitty character but I guess it'd be "progressive" because she'd have a vag?

I mean that the point of representation isn't making something more interesting. Of course that would be even better if it were interesting, but just because the representation happens to be uninteresting doesn't make it any less valuable or important. It's value is based on much more than that.

This almost defeats the purpose of the entire thread. So it’s better that other races/genders just be there in the background as opposed to trying to do something with them only to potentially kinda mess it up? That’s a cowards way to go.

Nobody said anything about the background. In that instance it was about the main villains of each saga. Those aren't random characters. And no, I did not say that it's better to be uninteresting, just that being interesting is not a requirement for representation. Of course it would be preferable for them to be interesting, but the value of representation transcends "interesting".

"Jiren to Jenny" would be inherently more valuable regardless of how shitty the character might be. Certainly we should aim for higher, but that does not mean that the value isn't there.

[Matches Malone]

When all the women become that while the men remain strong that is not equality.

I definitely think retiring both #18 and Videl into that role was a massive mistake. Both of them had a lot of potential to become great fighters and assets to the team, but it was unfortunately never taken advantage of. What makes things worse for #18 is that in Z she was more or less on the same level as #17, yet for some reason #17 is now on Goku Blue's level while #18 hasn't changed a bit. I'm not saying #18 should be that strong, but neither should #17.

[Kinokima]

The fact that she gets horribly beat up and then immediately after that leaves the story because she can’t keep up is not being treated like the “other humans” .

Yamucha: Gets horribly beaten by Jackie Chun and immediately leaves the story.
Kuririn: Also gets horribly beaten by Jackie Chun and immediately leaves the story, occasionally poking his head back in when no villains are around only to get horribly beat again when a villain DOES show up, then leaves once more.
Tenshinhan: Gets horribly beat by Drum and immediately leaves the story.

Yamcha and Krillin still join the action from time to time so no they have not left the story. All the humans except Yamcha fought in the TOP. And Yamcha fought in the latest manga arc

Do they have huge roles no. But they do something.


And again I am not asking for a big role for Videl. I am not even asking for her to fight in battles. I am saying with who she was BEFORE she met Gohan a girl who fought crime in between her High School classes regulating her to just Gohan’s wife and that she would settle in as a House Wife makes no sense for who her character was before.

There’s nothing wrong with being a house wife by the way.. idk why some of you are acting like it’s slavery or a death sentence.

When all the women become that while the men remain strong that is not equality.

Exactly this!

No there is nothing wrong with being a house wife. But when every female character becomes this except Bulma (and Super actually had Bulma at one point say she was the wife of Vegeta and mother of Trunks to describe herself ) I have issue with that. The female characters should be more than just the wives and mothers of the male characters

[Koitsukai]

The problem with being a housewife is being the only possible destiny for women in the story.
I don't think you have to have women as main villains or women as main protagonists in order to be fair to women, but it could be a nice start for women to not become housewives the moment they stop being "relevant". They are people and could still be doing other stuff, in Videl's case her dad's a millionaire, so there's no need for her to be at home ironing Gohan's shirts and cooking his meals. It's like she was "domesticated", no life of her own at all.

Videl could've become the head of Mr. Satan's dojo, she could be teaching ki control to some people. Still remain as a crime fighter (like in the Hirudegan movie), or in GT's case, she could've trained Pan. Or trained with Pan because there's hardly much she could teach her. EoZ's TB could've had her as a contestant.

Videl-Satan-Buu could've been an interesting trio to see.

[Cursed Lemon]

Part of the reason I think that most female characters fade into irrelevance is that their depiction is usual very, I would call, "fashionably pedestrian". Even when 18 was kicking ass, she was still dressed like she was going on a night out, which creates a kind of stylistic dissonance. Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc. are usually seen in their characteristic gi/armor/whatever - they are always ready to throw. These looks fit the utility of the characters and are also universally recognizable. This is not the case with the majority of female characters we've seen in DB, they look like the type of character to be sitting on the sidewalk when shit goes down. You might be saying that their clothing/image shouldn't matter that much, to which I say this is shōnen and you're wrong. lol

To that end, Caulifla's look is actually pretty on point. If they ever-so-slightly increased the detail of her outfit, she could really sit in with the most recognizable DB heroes. Still wish she and the other U6 saiyans would've been introduced differently.

[goku the krump dancer]

Nobody said anything about the background. In that instance it was about the main villains of each saga. Those aren't random characters. And no, I did not say that it's better to be uninteresting, just that being interesting is not a requirement for representation. Of course it would be preferable for them to be interesting, but the value of representation transcends "interesting".

"Jiren to Jenny" would be inherently more valuable regardless of how shitty the character might be. Certainly we should aim for higher, but that does not mean that the value isn't there.

So again, it seems like too much emphasis on just bare bones aesthetics, back in the day people thought Freeza was a woman but that didn't make them like him any more or less than they already did. Once it was confirmed that he was indeed a guy, I highly doubt that scared away any female viewers from the series. Ultimately it really doesn't matter. Even if Freeza was a female, how long before we get "There're abusive undertones, in a kid's cartoon because Goku beats up a girl really bad". People can twist anything to fit their views, if they really wanna find problems. Not to say Dragon Ball is without its short comings but a lot of the complaints that I've seen throughout this whole topic is just more of "My favorite character doesn't do enough" but wearing a 3rd/4th wave feminist hat. That shows not so much of a lack of female presence in the story but a lack of understanding of what supporting characters are supposed to do... Support the main character .

These are all prime examples as to why as an artist/author you don't pander to your audience, everyone wants something just a little bit different and you cant please them all.

1. Not every women has to be a house wife! - Okay #18 is a fashion designer and Videl is a Lieutenant on the Police Force. So? What significance does that have on the story being told? By the way its never implied that Videl doesn't work, it just doesn't matter if she does or not.

2. I want a woman to be strong enough to beat the snot out of Vegetto! - Okay Vados, Marcarita and the other female Angels can do that.

3. No I want to SEE it happen! - Well you don't always get what you want, If you wanna watch women kick ass in a cool story go watch Claymore.

Also if you ask a woman who has the luxury of being a house wife in todays economy, they'll tell you, its like a full time job in its own right. Women take pride in cooking and cleaning if they're truly in love with the guy, even if she does work full or part time

[Cursed Lemon]

I think you're missing the point there dude. lol

Young girls want a role model, someone who is like them (read: a girl) that makes them feel emboldened and inspired. In a show about awesome world-beating martial artists taking on the literal multiverse, a woman sitting at home with the kids is probably not getting them there.

[Matches Malone]

I think you're missing the point there dude. lol

Young girls want a role model, someone who is like them (read: a girl) that makes them feel emboldened and inspired. In a show about awesome world-beating martial artists taking on the literal multiverse, a woman sitting at home with the kids is probably not getting them there.

That's like saying men need a role model to enjoy wonder woman and captain marvel. I agree that DB needs stronger female characters (who are well written), but I don't see how girls and women can't enjoy it regardless.

[goku the krump dancer]

Nah I get it and if that's what they want, great! Dragon Ball isn't the story for that though and it doesn't have to be.