Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[jjgp1112]

I can think of few things less interesting then a series about Uub and Pan. Goku and co. will have to hijack that story by about episode 8.

[Zephyr]

There are (at least two) different objects that the name "Dragon Ball" is referring to, with regards to the topic.

There's "Dragon Ball", a serialized comic written and drawn by Akira Toriyama.

Then there's "Dragon Ball", a fictional world/universe/setting.

While these have the obvious connection of the events of the comic "taking place" in the fictional world, and the fictional world as a result being a byproduct of the comic, they are not one and the same entity. The comic is a complete and finished work. The fictional world lives on in subsequent works, regardless of the medium or creative talent involved.

The setting can and has moved on from Goku. Whether, and to what extent, said works have merit (and whether or not said merit, or lack thereof, is due to having moved on from Goku) is another matter. The comic proper, however, is done. Dragon Ball, a comic that ended over 15 years ago, as a matter of fact, did not move past Goku.
Well, outside of those roughly two months worth of chapters between his saying goodbye and his chiming in about the Tenkaichi Budokai...

[Grimlock]

I never understood the logic behind people wanting this. It's being done with multiple franchises right now (Boruto, Inuyasha just to name a few), but they'll be nowhere near as popular as the original deal.

One could say Dragon Ball GT (and Dragon Ball for that matter. Dragon Ball Z is the most popular one) isn't as popular as "the original deal", but there we have it. We still got another series, and it isn't even about the next generation.

What's your logic behind this?

It doesn't help that the writers, be it Toriyama or Toyotaro, totally avoid giving Goten and Trunks any relevant role for what, 10 years now?. Suddenly making them relevant in a next-gen sequel would be jarring, and a "too little, too late" kind of deal.

While I partially agree, no one's saying they would suddenly give such roles for these characters, there could be a build-up leading to it.

Uub, Pan and Bra aren't characters who can carry a series on their own either.

Based on? Reminder that Dragon Ball GT is not part of the equation here, so all we have to go by is their brief appearance in the manga.

[Zinnia]

One could say Dragon Ball GT (and Dragon Ball for that matter. Dragon Ball Z is the most popular one) isn't as popular as "the original deal", but there we have it. We still got another series, and it isn't even about the next generation.

What's your logic behind this?

Because it relied on Goku's name and popularity, duh. There's a reason that him and Vegeta got a new form and fusion in there. These days, side-characters getting new stuff is relegated to SDBH. Pan's first Super Saiyan may even come from it one day randomly (after 8000 years)

While I partially agree, no one's saying they would suddenly give such roles for these characters, there could be a build-up leading to it.

Logic dictates they would have to brand the series as "next-generation" in all posters and promotional media. As I said, forcing us to suddenly care about the likes of Goten/Trunks/Marron would be very artificial when they aren't even played as anything but background characters.

Based on? Reminder that Dragon Ball GT is not part of the equation here, so all we have to go by is their brief appearance in the manga.

Like it or not, GT is a part of equation there. When people think of Pan, Uub or Bulla it is their GT designs and personalities that come in everyone's heads first. Especially when huge games like Dokkan, Xenoverse and Legends constantly use said versions for them. Your casual watcher won't think of EoZ Bulla who appeared for like two panels in the manga.

The staff has to think around this and would need to keep their designs similar. There is a reason why Broly, Bardock, King Vegeta and Paragus all look very close to their "filler' versions.

[KBABZ]

Uub, Pan and Bra aren't characters who can carry a series on their own either.

I disagree with this on the basis that we know SO LITTLE about these characters.

[Shaddy]

Your suggestion is so vague, I can't wrap my head around it. Like give me a for instance? What makes your idea still Dragon Ball?

What reason do I have to assume you won't just say "actually, that's not Dragon Ball" no matter what I answer? You're the one defining the parameters of acceptability here, so of course anything I say is going to be "not Dragon Ball" because your subjective placement of the premise is going to inherently stray outside those parameters from the start.

[ABED]

Leaving out Goku doesn't just remove him, you remove all those relationships that are so important to the series.

Your suggestion is so vague, I can't wrap my head around it. Like give me a for instance? What makes your idea still Dragon Ball?

What reason do I have to assume you won't just say "actually, that's not Dragon Ball" no matter what I answer? You're the one defining the parameters of acceptability here, so of course anything I say is going to be "not Dragon Ball" because your subjective placement of the premise is going to inherently stray outside those parameters from the start.

Did I kick your dog or something?

i don't even really care about this specific case, but I find it interesting that one would want a revival to experiment instead of being what it was. Why bring something back if you are just going to change it wildly? And don't just assume that just because I disagree with you I'm not interested in what someone has to say. I really want to understand what you mean by experimenting. Like doing what exactly?

[Grimlock]

Because it relied on Goku's name and popularity, duh.

Exactly. It continued to rely on that and look how it turned out, still less popular than its predecessors. So that argument that "next generation" will always end up being "less popular" is weak. Other factors are in play when it comes to determine if a series will be less or more popular.

Logic dictates they would have to brand the series as "next-generation" in all posters and promotional media. As I said, forcing us to suddenly care about the likes of Goten/Trunks/Marron would be very artificial when they aren't even played as anything but background characters.

And decent expectation, in this specific case, dictates that before we get to the point of branding a series as "next-generation" in all posters and promotional material, these already established but merely background characters may get more screentime and development in the actual series that precedes the next one.

Like it or not, GT is a part of equation there.

No, it has nothing to do with opinions. Dragon Ball GT is not part because it's most likely not how the author would envision/portray these characters. When you watch Dragon Ball GT, you are essentially watching a Toei's product through and through.

When people think of Pan, Uub or Bulla it is their GT designs and personalities that come in everyone's heads first.

Yes, but I don't think that if a next-generation series were to be made, they would take into consideration what Dragon Ball GT did. Which is also another reason why that series does not serve to as a "model".

And a hint to that may already come in the shape of Dragon Ball Online. Yeah, it didn't provide designs for these characters, but their fate there s completely different than what Dragon Ball GT shows.

In short, Dragon Ball GT is just a take on what things can be. But they aren't obliged to follow that, there could be many takes, different sequels to the manga. What they wouldn't do is to ignore what's in the manga, they would come up with a new follow-up to that, regardless of anything that comes after it that it's already there.

The staff has to think around this and would need to keep their designs similar. There is a reason why Broly, Bardock, King Vegeta and Paragus all look very close to their "filler' versions.

You think they "need" to keep their designs? I would say the reason Broly and Paragus kept a similar design compared to their alternate dimension counterparts is purely out of fan service and the sense of "there's really no need to change", respectively.

I don't think Toei's King Vegeta looks very close to Toriyama's King Vegeta.

And there's no "filler" version of Bardock. In fact, it doesn't even make sense for Bardock to have a new design (at least when he goes to face Freeza), since the old one is in the manga.

[ABED]

I think the reason to keep Broly's design isn't fanservice as much as it's just a great design.

[MyVisionity]

In your idea, if it's a clone then why do it? Apparently they are the same so why make the change to begin with?

They are not exactly the same, because one is a clone and one is not. And there could also be additional divergences depending upon the circumstances of the clone's creation and its background. But the main thing is that if the original Goku dies or retires or leaves Earth or whatever, then the clone would serve to keep the series going beyond that point. Then you would have a new Goku to work with while maintaining the relationships and history of the old one.

[ABED]

In your idea, if it's a clone then why do it? Apparently they are the same so why make the change to begin with?

They are not exactly the same, because one is a clone and one is not. And there could also be additional divergences depending upon the circumstances of the clone's creation and its background. But the main thing is that if the original Goku dies or retires or leaves Earth or whatever, then the clone would serve to keep the series going beyond that point. Then you would have a new Goku to work with while maintaining the relationships and history of the old one.

So you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. Those relationships aren't the same as it's not Goku, it's his clone. While I enjoy the trope of the clone dealing with the relationships of their doppelganger, it's still not them so the dynamic is inherently different.

[Jack Bz]

The Twin Peaks revival was extremely different to the original show, and in my opinion is much better and one of the greatest seasons of tv I've ever seen. If it was more of the same, it would be a huge let down. I guess you could say it had a laser focus on the more unique aspects of the original show. But with David Lynch, you have to expect the unexpected I suppose.

I also think at its best, Better Call Saul is as good as Breaking Bad despite the main two characters from that show not being in it at all. It's a spin-off, yeah, but very acclaimed with a lot of fans.

That said, Dragon Ball isn't the same sort of show as those (and Toriyama isn't David Lynch lol). I don't have much of a desire to part from Goku, especially as Toriyama tried that already and wasn't comfortable with it. I think it would take a lot of planning to get right, which isn't Toriyama's strong suit. I just wish that Super had other characters becoming protagonists like the original did, and even BoG did with Beerus becoming a mainstay.

None of my issues with super have been due to Goku being the main character and wishing he wasn't around.

[ABED]

Better Call Saul is a spin off. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that a spin off can be as good or better than the parent series. I still go back and forth on which I enjoy more, Cheers or Frasier. I could be wrong but I don't think that's what we're talking about.

Current DB has issues and I don't think getting rid of Goku is a way to fix it as I don't think it's the fundamental issue.

[MyVisionity]

Other possibilities include Goku gets amnesia and forgets his identity, or Goku is reborn and has to start out as a baby again. Or he's just reincarnated completely as someone else.

[LoganForkHands73]

All this talk of cloning and amnesia calls to mind the Spider-Man Clone Saga. Sounds like it would be a recipe for disaster. I'd say if you're gonna have a new protagonist, at least make it someone radically oppositional to Goku instead of trying to superficially recapture his essence. In a sense, we already had something similar with Son Goku Jr. from the GT special, who's a forgettable smear of a character because he's exactly like Goku. And that's boring. To a lesser extent, Goten suffers from a similar problem. He's so indistinct that he's never made a particularly great impression on the fandom.

Even though Gohan ultimately proved ill-fitted to the role in Toriyama's eyes, I can still understand the appeal of wanting to see him bear the torch specifically because he isn't like his father. I like Gohan and a part of me wishes to see a reality where he did hold the line longer, as many fans do. Toriyama just couldn't figure out how to maintain Gohan's demure, reactive personality in a rowdy action manga, which was evident when he immediately got overshadowed by Goku the second he returned. Toriyama didn't have to write Gohan like that but those are the corners we write ourselves into when our creations take on lives of their own.

Replacing the protagonist with a clone or an alternate universe doppelganger is a common trope in American comics but it very rarely works out in the long run. As much of a hot mess as the Spider-Man Clone Saga was, it ironically had a somewhat positive impact by introducing Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker, two characters who made an impression and went onto better pastures. Ben especially made a splash because he had a completely independent life from Peter in spite of being his clone and even got his own supporting cast. However, as popular as those characters ended up being, there was ultimately no replacing the original Peter Parker. Same deal with Iron Man, he was replaced by a younger and hipper teenaged doppelganger from another universe in the '90s, but literally no one remembers that.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

All this talk of cloning and amnesia calls to mind the Spider-Man Clone Saga. Sounds like it would be a recipe for disaster. I'd say if you're gonna have a new protagonist, at least make it someone radically oppositional to Goku instead of trying to superficially recapture his essence. In a sense, we already had something similar with Son Goku Jr. from the GT special, who's a forgettable smear of a character because he's exactly like Goku. And that's boring. To a lesser extent, Goten suffers from a similar problem. He's so indistinct that he's never made a particularly great impression on the fandom.

Even though Gohan ultimately proved ill-fitted to the role in Toriyama's eyes, I can still understand the appeal of wanting to see him bear the torch specifically because he isn't like his father. I like Gohan and a part of me wishes to see a reality where he did hold the line longer, as many fans do. Toriyama just couldn't figure out how to maintain Gohan's demure, reactive personality in a rowdy action manga, which was evident when he immediately got overshadowed by Goku the second he returned. Toriyama didn't have to write Gohan like that but those are the corners we write ourselves into when our creations take on lives of their own.

Replacing the protagonist with a clone or an alternate universe doppelganger is a common trope in American comics but it very rarely works out in the long run. As much of a hot mess as the Spider-Man Clone Saga was, it ironically had a somewhat positive impact by introducing Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker, two characters who made an impression and went onto better pastures. Ben especially made a splash because he had a completely independent life from Peter in spite of being his clone and even got his own supporting cast. However, as popular as those characters ended up being, there was ultimately no replacing the original Peter Parker. Same deal with Iron Man, he was replaced by a younger and hipper teenaged doppelganger from another universe in the '90s, but literally no one remembers that.

Being reminded of "The Clone Saga" always makes me shutter. I've never understood the appeal of cloning a character, or replacing an old character with a literal clone.

[MyVisionity]

Ben especially made a splash because he had a completely independent life from Peter in spite of being his clone and even got his own supporting cast. However, as popular as those characters ended up being, there was ultimately no replacing the original Peter Parker.

This is one of my favorite eras in Spider-Man, and I don't think it was really given enough time to takeoff. Who knows how successful it would have been had it been allowed to grow.

I don't look at it so much as replacing Goku as much as expanding Goku, adding to the character's totality and presence. Much like Ben Reilly was an extension of Peter Parker's character and identity, a clone or alternate version of Goku would be as well. Goku's character would become much more than that one guy.

Would the dynamics be different? Sure they would be. But what's the point in continuing on past Goku if the story doesn't evolve.

[ABED]

What? The clone saga went forever. It wasn't supposed to be that long and kept going because at first people were enjoying it then it kept going. It was given more than a chance.

Goku's character would become much more than that one guy.

Goku's character is more than just Goku?

But what's the point in continuing on past Goku if the story doesn't evolve.

What is Dragon Ball to you?

[MyVisionity]

What? The clone saga went forever. It wasn't supposed to be that long and kept going because at first people were enjoying it then it kept going. It was given more than a chance.

Goku's character would become much more than that one guy.

Goku's character is more than just Goku?

But what's the point in continuing on past Goku if the story doesn't evolve.

What is Dragon Ball to you?

Not the entire Clone Saga, just the section where Ben Reilly takes over as Spider-Man after Peter retires. Ben's time as the lead character didn't have enough time to develop.

Goku's character would become more than just the one individual Goku if they decided to introduce a new Goku. The idea of "Goku" would expand to include his alternate personas and everything new that they bring with them. And so Goku isn't being replaced so much as he's being broadened and developed.

What's Dragon Ball to me? I guess one answer is a story about a bunch of martial artists centered around Son Goku. But I don't necessarily think that you can continue on with Dragon Ball without Goku. Just that if it were to continue somehow, that would mean some changes to the characters and relationships instead of more of the same.

[TheSeductiveTomato]

I can think of few things less interesting then a series about Uub and Pan. Goku and co. will have to hijack that story by about episode 8.

I think a series of Goku and Vegeta leading a team of younger warriors (Trunks, Goten, Pan, Uub, and maybe 1 or 2 new characters) on adventures around space (similar to GT but not boring) would be fun if everyone got adequate spotlight and character development.