GT and misogyny

[WittyUsername]

So basically it's Super Saiyan from the Namek Arc but it isn't exclusive to Saiyans. We've been here before.

Again, we don’t need Ultra Instinct to become the new Super Saiyan.

[Cursed Lemon]

That's like saying men need a role model to enjoy wonder woman and captain marvel. I agree that DB needs stronger female characters (who are well written), but I don't see how girls and women can't enjoy it regardless.

Well I'm sorry to inform you dude, but personal identity plays a part in being able to relate to a character. lol Whether you like it or not

[Matches Malone]

That's like saying men need a role model to enjoy wonder woman and captain marvel. I agree that DB needs stronger female characters (who are well written), but I don't see how girls and women can't enjoy it regardless.

Well I'm sorry to inform you dude, but personal identity plays a part in being able to relate to a character. lol Whether you like it or not

I don't disagree, I'm just saying females can and do enjoy DB despite its lack of good female representation.

[Skar]

The only thing I didn't like about Caulifa was that she achieved SSJ2 immediately after SSJ1 since every other Saiyan had to train to master SSJ1 first. Goten and Trunks apparently inherited SSJ but only transformed past it after training as Gotenks. Even in DBS, Future Trunks trained for a few years and Cabba at least a year before achieving SSJ2. It's not a big deal since it didn't achieve much and she's out of the story now. It's just one of those things that you could handwave but I don't think anyone would argue in favor of it if it didn't happen. For example, there's criticism of the manga ToP but I never heard anyone argue that Caulifa only achieving SSJ1 as one of them.

I'm not sure if we'll ever see the U6 Saiyans again but maybe next time they'll have trained with Vados. We saw them again in a Heroes arc and didn't achieve any new forms so that might be it for them or the Heroes writers prefers to wait in case Toriyama decides to use them again.

[BWri]

The only thing I didn't like about Caulifa was that she achieved SSJ2 immediately after SSJ1 since every other Saiyan had to train to master SSJ1 first. Goten and Trunks apparently inherited SSJ but only transformed past it after training as Gotenks. Even in DBS, Future Trunks trained for a few years and Cabba at least a year before achieving SSJ2. It's not a big deal since it didn't achieve much and she's out of the story now. It's just one of those things that you could handwave but I don't think anyone would argue in favor of it if it didn't happen. For example, there's criticism of the manga ToP but I never heard anyone argue that Caulifa only achieving SSJ1 as one of them.

I'm not sure if we'll ever see the U6 Saiyans again but maybe next time they'll have trained with Vados. We saw them again in a Heroes arc and didn't achieve any new forms so that might be it for them or the Heroes writers prefers to wait in case Toriyama decides to use them again.

I personally wouldn't mind if Super took a break from Universe 7 for a bit to focus on universe 6. If Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba became the protagonists for an arc or two I would actually love that even though it's incredibly Saiyan focused. The thought of them training with Vados is actually incredibly neat. I hope they go in that direction.

[BWri]

There’s nothing wrong with being a house wife by the way.. idk why some of you are acting like it’s slavery or a death sentence.

When all the women become that while the men remain strong that is not equality.

It's boring, unimaginative and more than a little misogynistic that all of the prominent female characters ended up in the same role/lifestyle \but let's not act like #18 isn't stronger than half the male cast. Of the Z-fighters, only Gohan, Piccolo, #17, Goku, and Vegeta are stronger than her. She is legitimately one of the most powerful fighters in the entire multiverse and may have even gotten much much stronger during the Moro arc. I also always had the sense that she was always meant to be stronger than Goten and Trunks even as Super Saiyans, but I'm probably one of the few to think that.

[Matches Malone]

I always had the sense that she was meant to be stronger than Goten and Trunks even as Super Saiyans, but I'm probably one of the few to think that.

I think she was, at least during their fight in the tournament. Those 2 were definitely strong for their age, but if she wanted to, she could've easily killed them due to their lack of experience on the battlefield and unwillingness to take a life.

[BWri]

I always had the sense that she was meant to be stronger than Goten and Trunks even as Super Saiyans, but I'm probably one of the few to think that.

I think she was, at least during their fight in the tournament. Those 2 were definitely strong for their age, but if she wanted to, she could've easily killed them due to their lack of experience on the battlefield and unwillingness to take a life.

I completely agree. I also think they did surpass her after training in the RoSaT or at least closed whatever gap might have been there.

[Skar]

I personally wouldn't mind if Super took a break from Universe 7 for a bit to focus on universe 6. If Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba became the protagonists for an arc or two I would actually love that even though it's incredibly Saiyan focused. The thought of them training with Vados is actually incredibly neat. I hope they go in that direction.

There might be a short spin-off about them one day although maybe not from Toriyama. The three storylines after the ToP have all been about U7-originated antagonists so Heroes might be the only place we'll see the other universes.

[Polyphase Avatron]

18 was a lot more relevant in Super than she was in the Buu saga or GT.

[Kinokima]

That's like saying men need a role model to enjoy wonder woman and captain marvel. I agree that DB needs stronger female characters (who are well written), but I don't see how girls and women can't enjoy it regardless.

Well I'm sorry to inform you dude, but personal identity plays a part in being able to relate to a character. lol Whether you like it or not

I don't disagree, I'm just saying females can and do enjoy DB despite its lack of good female representation.

You are right I am a woman who loves Dragon Ball

But we can criticize media even though we enjoy it

[KBABZ]

Well I'm sorry to inform you dude, but personal identity plays a part in being able to relate to a character. lol Whether you like it or not

I don't disagree, I'm just saying females can and do enjoy DB despite its lack of good female representation.

You are right I am a woman who loves Dragon Ball

But we can criticize media even though we enjoy it

Speaking from experience, the more you love something the more you want it to be better than it is. I'm the world's biggest R&C fan and I've wanted for YEARS to have a major shakeup in the traditional gameplay to get out of the PS2-era muscle memory, and it hasn't happened yet. After the Future saga, I know the story can be very emotionally and character-driven, which is why I don't like the movie and the Life of Pie short for banking way too hard on Ratchet only being a source of jokes.

By that same token, Dragon Ball has had a long-standing issue with female representation (MARON) and a HUGE issue with how certain characters are written around women. And while Dragon Ball is very accessible, the lack of long-term planning has bit its butt MANY times, particularly when it came to Gohan taking the helm post-Cell. Planning ahead would have also offered more time to instill the story with more intentional meaning rather than what fans have applied to it where they can. That's not even mentioning the filler, both in terms of its frequency and how utterly lazy and uninspired it could be.

Keep in mind, I own the entire manga, DB and Kai on DVD/Blu-ray, and have an OG Dragon Box I imported from Japan. I LOVE this show, but it has problems.

[Trouser]

I personally wouldn't mind if Super took a break from Universe 7 for a bit to focus on universe 6. If Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba became the protagonists for an arc or two I would actually love that even though it's incredibly Saiyan focused. The thought of them training with Vados is actually incredibly neat. I hope they go in that direction.

Um, I think none of these three characters deserves to be protagonists. Everything that is connected to them smells like... bad writing. But it's just me. I'd like to see more of them, if they are handled the right way, but not as protagonists. I like their designs (except Cabba)... Kale I like the most. She has the potential to be something more than OG Broly. I'm rooting for her (as long as she doesn't scream "SoN GoKuH"...).

There might be a short spin-off about them one day although maybe not from Toriyama. The three storylines after the ToP have all been about U7-originated antagonists so Heroes might be the only place we'll see the other universes.

Unfortunately most people here don't care for "non-canon" stuff. No matter what this is, which is sad 'cos it can be better that that modern crap stories from Trolliyama Toriyama.

[Shaddy]

Unfortunately most people here don't care for "non-canon" stuff. No matter what this is, which is sad 'cos it can be better that that modern crap stories from Trolliyama Toriyama.

Actually, when people don't like something it's because they think it's bad. If GT were canon it wouldn't suddenly become good. Bardock's TV special is still miles ahead of DB Minus, even though the latter is what's canon. Don't generalize anyone who doesn't like what you like as having some arbitrary bias. The fact that so much content outside the main timeline is dogshit is entirely based around the people creating it and their proficiency at doing so.

[Jord]

Unfortunately most people here don't care for "non-canon" stuff. No matter what this is, which is sad 'cos it can be better that that modern crap stories from Trolliyama Toriyama.

Actually, when people don't like something it's because they think it's bad. If GT were canon it wouldn't suddenly become good. Bardock's TV special is still miles ahead of DB Minus, even though the latter is what's canon. Don't generalize anyone who doesn't like what you like as having some arbitrary bias. The fact that so much content outside the main timeline is dogshit is entirely based around the people creating it and their proficiency at doing so.

That being said, people try to "justify" what they like because it's canon, which is ridiculous. It's a bunch of children's cartoons that that place in a fictional universe. Who cares what's canon or not?
Plus, if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, deciding what's canon is just a marketing tool.

GT is the official sequel to the Z anime but non canon according to a lot of people (Has Toei ever officially declared what's canon or not?). Super is "canon" now but when you try to fit it into it's "slot" in Z where it's supposed to take place there are various continuity problems that arise.

[Shaddy]

How is canon a marketing tool for the series if the series has never addressed it? Would it not be more profitable to let people assume everything is canon even when the continuity very obviously doesn't make sense?

[KBABZ]

GT is the official sequel to the Z anime but non canon according to a lot of people (Has Toei ever officially declared what's canon or not?). Super is "canon" now but when you try to fit it into it's "slot" in Z where it's supposed to take place there are various continuity problems that arise.

Toei has never talked about what's canon or not. This is partially due to there being no Japanese equivalent for the word canon, which is why the Daizenshuu and other official sources from Japan use phrasing like "alternate dimension/timeline". The only thing that's hard canon and applies to literally everything else is the manga, because that's the source material for everything else.

It's also important to remember that Japan didn't get the anime on home media until 2004, a decade after the anime ended, so the idea of "this anime scene is canon to the manga because it fits" and stuff like that becomes much vaguer because there was simply no way to do an apples-to-apples comparison and you had to rely on your own memories for this stuff. Nowadays it's SO MUCH easier since you can just buy a bunch of chapters/episodes for a couple of bucks on Kindle/Crunchyroll.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

I just simply separate into two categories to make it simple for me.

Manga, definitive canon. Contained everything there is set in stone and anything after not it.

Anime canon which is Toei's anime adaption of the manga. With GT and Super/Super Manga being alternate timelines / dimensions.

I'd rather keep it as rigid and simple as this.

[KBABZ]

I just simply separate into two categories to make it simple for me.

Manga, definitive canon. Contained everything there is set in stone and anything after not it.

Anime canon which is Toei's anime adaption of the manga. With GT and Super/Super Manga being alternate timelines / dimensions.

I'd rather keep it as rigid and simple as this.

I have something similar, except for me the anime is split into Classic Canon (DB, Z, GT, Bardock Special) and Modern Canon (DB, Kai, Super, modern movie trio, Jaco, DB-).

[Dr. Casey]

It's also important to remember that Japan didn't get the anime on home media until 2004

That's weird... I wonder why not. I always thought it would have been really comfy and nostalgic if the original Dragon Ball had some Betamax releases. So much for that.