Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Is SS4 canon anyway? If you don’t believe so, what would satisfy you? What if it was said the other way around?

I wouldn't care either way, the problem is when people unironically think that videogames statements are canon, that's dumb. Following that logic then Videl can beat UI Goku. Videogames are not canon and have no relevance in power-scaling.

[Hugo Boss]

Is SS4 canon anyway? If you don’t believe so, what would satisfy you? What if it was said the other way around?

I wouldn't care either way, the problem is when people unironically think that videogames statements are canon, that's dumb. Following that logic then Videl can beat UI Goku. Videogames are not canon and have no relevance in power-scaling.

I’m confused. Do you think the statement should be dismissed because it’s game-only or because it’s non-canon? In which scenario do you think a comparison between SS4 and DBS exclusive forms would be plausible?

[SupremeKai25]

Is SS4 canon anyway? If you don’t believe so, what would satisfy you? What if it was said the other way around?

I wouldn't care either way, the problem is when people unironically think that videogames statements are canon, that's dumb. Following that logic then Videl can beat UI Goku. Videogames are not canon and have no relevance in power-scaling.

I’m confused. Do you think the statement should be dismissed because it’s game-only or because it’s non-canon? In which scenario do you think a comparison between SS4 and DBS exclusive forms would be plausible?

Simple, because it's game-only, making it non-canon. Otherwise we might as well consider Videl equal to UI Goku since she can beat him in that same game.

[Koitsukai]

It's hardly believable that someone would base their 'beliefs' on what a game states, while contradicting the actual show. People here pretty much agree that at best the strongest characters from GT would peak around late Zamasu arc and be pretty much fodder after episode 109. I mean UI just broke the wrist of the toughest enemy ever just by standing in front of him lol. There's no room for anything with UI unless you are some prodigy GoD.

It's as senseless as claiming SSB and SS4 are equal forms because SDBH has them fighting evenly in one episode, disregarding the fact that post-GT Goku is at least 10 years older than the other.

[Grimlock]

It's as senseless as claiming SSB and SS4 are equal forms because SDBH has them fighting evenly in one episode, disregarding the fact that post-GT Goku is at least 10 years older than the other.

When you put it like that, it kind of implies that Xeno Goku is stronger since he's (a lot?) older, but the arcade was very clear on who was stronger in that battle.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It does seem to be a contradiction given how SS4 has only ever been compared to SSB in other media, with similar comparisons with their Fusion-level counterparts.

There have been a lot more comparisons and implications that put Ultra Instinct equal to or above SSB/SS4 Fusions in more media by comparison.

[SupremeKai25]

Lol I have no problem with the videogames having these fun interactions and crossovers. If anything I'm disappointed that Fused Zamasu doesn't react to SS4 Gogeta (that I know of), so I'd like more crossovers.

The problem is when some people like that guy on twitter consider these statements valid in power-scaling discussions. That's a problem. Because those videogames have nothing to do with feats and statements in the actual canon story. Based on the feats and statements of the actual canon story, SS4 Gogeta is a literal ant compared to Ultra Instinct LOL.

[Koitsukai]

It's as senseless as claiming SSB and SS4 are equal forms because SDBH has them fighting evenly in one episode, disregarding the fact that post-GT Goku is at least 10 years older than the other.

When you put it like that, it kind of implies that Xeno Goku is stronger since he's (a lot?) older, but the arcade was very clear on who was stronger in that battle.

I don't know the outcome of the arcade, I take it from your reply that SSB was stronger?
My point being you can only compare the individuals, not the forms. A SS can beat a SS3 depending on how strong the fighters are, and that doesn't make SS >SS3.

SS4 is more along the lines of SSG, considering they were both vaguely compared to SS fusion.

[Hugo Boss]

I can understand that game-only assessments are not very reliable. But what exactly constitutes a valid comparison between non-canon forms?

[Grimlock]

I don't know the outcome of the arcade, I take it from your reply that SSB was stronger?

Yep. After the fight, Dragon Ball Super Goku was like: "oh yeah, nice battle. Cheers!". And Xeno Goku: *panting* "I can't believe you are one step above me".

My point being you can only compare the individuals, not the forms. A SS can beat a SS3 depending on how strong the fighters are, and that doesn't make SS >SS3.

And your point is correct, the power of the transformation is directly influenced by one's power in base form. That means even with all the years Xeno Goku has, Dragon Ball Super Goku still managed to be stronger at that point.

But what exactly constitutes a valid comparison between non-canon forms?

There's nothing set in stone stating what constitutes a valid comparison or not (also, on that same note, there is no canon to talk about either). You can compare anyone to anyone as much as you like.

[Alruneia]

I can understand that game-only assessments are not very reliable. But what exactly constitutes a valid comparison between non-canon forms?

A comment from Toriyama would probably do it. If you're comparing something non-canon (SS4 Gogeta in this case) to something canon (UI Goku in this case), the one who created the canon part should be the one to decide.

[Hugo Boss]

There's nothing set in stone stating what constitutes a valid comparison or not (also, on that same note, there is no canon to talk about either). You can compare anyone to anyone as much as you like.

Agreed. That’s why I don’t get the idea that canonicity should be a factor in this kind of debate.

A comment from Toriyama would probably do it. If you're comparing something non-canon (SS4 Gogeta in this case) to something canon (UI Goku in this case), the one who created the canon part should be the one to decide.

If the creator of SS4 disagrees with Toriyama, why Toriyama’s opinion should have more weigh than his? How can the original author interfere in someone else work?

[Grand Marshal 1]

This is GT SS4 Gogeta lel

I'd argue he is SSG tier by DBS: Broly.

As for Xeno Gogeta that's different.

Xeno Gogeta needed Super Saiyan to fight Omega Shenron and when Fin appeared and absorbed GT Gogeta, the fight was on 'equal footing' suggesting that Fin was able to fill in the gap in power (unlikely at that point in time) or that GT Gogeta was actually equal to Xeno Gogeta.

But that's not the case, cause never in GT was fusion as a Super Saiyan meant to deal with Omega. (Point being made: people most definitely confuse Heroes with GT and think that the SDBH anime is a continuation of Super or sum, so they take the game statement as factual).

GT fanservice from DBFZ.

[Koitsukai]

I can understand that game-only assessments are not very reliable. But what exactly constitutes a valid comparison between non-canon forms?

Some non-canon characters have been compared to canon characters, like SS4 was compared to SS Vegito by official guides of a non-canon product. Rildo and Buu were also compared with even less detail.

And we know canon characters are always, and I dare to say exclusively compared -although sometimes vaguely- to other canon characters, like SSG and SS Vegito were in BoG.
While no direct comparison was made, you could draw from it that at the very least, SS4 and SSG are as relative to each other as SS Goku and Namek Freeza, to name a tier we all know is set apart from the previous and next tiers, while not necessarily being evenly matched.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m still skeptical that we already had that answer beforehand. The comparison between SS4 and SS Fusion came with a question mark in that comic. And SSG wasn’t implied to be stronger than SS Fusion either. Actually, SS Fusion is even stronger than SSB right now.

So, while I think it’s not impossible to compare SSG with SS4, I also think it’s still within the realm of possibility that SS4 is up there with SSB or even SS Fusion. It’s up to you to decide which one you prefer.

Anyway, SS4 Gogeta is so much more ridiculously powerful than SS4 Goku that I honestly don’t see how you can have an opinion on him. I like the comparison between SS4 and SSB, though. If SSB Fusion is potentially greater than Ultra Instinct, SS4 Fusion could be as well. I have already seen some youtubers comparing Ultra Instinct Goku and SS4 Goku, so this comparison doesn’t surprise me.

[Grimlock]

Agreed. That’s why I don’t get the idea that canonicity should be a factor in this kind of debate.

Canonicity is not a factor in any kind of debate. People try to make a point out of it but they always fail to realize it's utterly pointless.

[Koitsukai]

I’m still skeptical that we already had that answer beforehand. The comparison between SS4 and SS Fusion came with a question mark in that comic. And SSG wasn’t implied to be stronger than SS Fusion either. Actually, SS Fusion is even stronger than SSB right now.

So, while I think it’s not impossible to compare SSG with SS4, I also think it’s still within the realm of possibility that SS4 is up there with SSB or even SS Fusion. It’s up to you to decide which one you prefer.

Anyway, SS4 Gogeta is so much more ridiculously powerful than SS4 Goku that I honestly don’t see how you can have an opinion on him. I like the comparison between SS4 and SSB, though. If SSB Fusion is potentially greater than Ultra Instinct, SS4 Fusion could be as well. I have already seen some youtubers comparing Ultra Instinct Goku and SS4 Goku, so this comparison doesn’t surprise me.

SS fusion, or base fusion, is now above everything not because of fusion itself, but because of the fusees who are incredibly stronger by now. If the day after BoG took place, Vegito appeared, his SS would've been stronger than the SSG that fought Beerus and of course stronger than a pre-SSG ritual Vegito.
The subtext of the comparison in BoG was that the power to fight Beerus would have to be above fusion. The narrative was implying that. And Goku's reaction as a SSG also backs that narrative intent, implying he is wielding more power than he would as Vegito. It was so much power that he felt kinda guilty of how he got it.

The question mark on SS4 and Vegito's comparison only cements the notion that they are relative to each other. It doesn't really matter who's stronger, there'd be no way to prove it, the point was having them as similar boosts. That is an individual form that is the equivalent of fusing with someone else, when forms usually go from 2-fold to 50-fold.

So we can conclude that, no matter who's on top when being compared to Vegito, both SS4 and SSG are in the realm of SS fusion, the increase is so big that is like merging with someone else and then going SS. And blue would naturally be the next step of power.
With this in mind, Blue fusion should be way above SS4 fusion, but like I said earlier, you can't compare the forms, only the users. Namek SSB fusion vs GT SS fusion would result in GT fusion winning, but it wouldn't mean SS fusion > SSB fusion.

[Cipher]

My hot take is that even though ancillary media will obviously delight at the chance to pair SS4 characters up with either God or Blue, as the post-3 transformations of two divergent sequels, there just isn't enough to go on between the sequels themselves to make any kind of reasonable estimate as to which branch is stronger than which.

[GodVegetto91]

Well, I guess these spoilers confirm it.. Beerus >>>>>>>>> Granolah >>> Broly!

[Soldierofficial]

Well, I guess these spoilers confirm it.. Beerus >>>>>>>>> Granolah >>> Broly!

We always knew that, even someone like Moro 73 (who is fodder to UI Goku) was stated to be stronger than FPSSJ Broly, there is still no mortal who is at Beerus's level, and it will be like that until we have a definitive statement and not a mere estimation.