Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[ABED]

Everything will be going though the motions. If DB continues but focuses on the next gen, that's a spin off. That's also not new, it would be going over the same ground we did before.

[Soppa Saia People]

ABED i'm gonna be real these topics aren't fun or interesting because no matter what anyone says you're gonna respond to them with Thats Not Dragon Ball. like that's overly blunt but jeez louise, it's a little tiring to read. wasn't you're whole thing with shaddy on the previous page all about this ?

[ABED]

ABED i'm gonna be real these topics aren't fun or interesting because no matter what anyone says you're gonna respond to them with Thats Not Dragon Ball. like that's overly blunt but jeez louise, it's a little tiring to read. wasn't you're whole thing with shaddy on the previous page all about this ?

It's also tiring of reading the same "DB should move past Goku, he's holding it back" thread that pops up seemingly every single week.Is this one character honestly preventing the story from going anywhere? Like does anyone think that by getting rid of Goku or diminishing his presence DB's going to enter some Renaissance period? I'm asking in earnest.

[Cure Dragon 255]

While I do feel ABED is overly zealous about his opinions that comeback was EPIC.

[Matches Malone]

Does anyone think that by getting rid of Goku or diminishing his presence DB's going to enter some Renaissance period? I'm asking in earnest.

No, but not because the idea itself wouldn't work, but because the current writers couldn't tell a good story if their lives depended on it, with or without Goku.

[ABED]

I don't have near the amount of dislike of current DB as you, Bruce... Matches. Damnit, why do I keep doing that? Anyway, I agree, it has bigger issues than one character being the focal point. It suffers from the issue with most of the revivals we see. There are more bad revivals than there are good ones and they all suffer great from a handful of big issues (e.g. the magic is gone, the context that they were created in has changed, keeping characters static from the last time we saw them or regressing them to facilitate an arc). I don't see the issue as Goku not changing being an issue. He rarely did except in age and a little bit of worldliness, but he doesn't have grand changes like Gohan or Vegeta or Piccolo. He usually helps facilitate others' changes, which works great.

[goku the krump dancer]

A youtuber by the name of TotallyNotMark made a video about how Goku would be professionally known as a "Positive Flat Character" in that who he is at his core is the forefront of who he is. With minimal changes to his character throughout the story, his journey is painted, not so much by how his world changes him but how he changes the world and people around him (See Vegeta, Piccolo, Ten Shinhan etc), mostly by accident in Goku's case.

Needless to say, I agree with it.

Honestly ABED I really do think you'd enjoy reading the manga, at the very least the Moro Arc (though it does drag in the middle) and the current Granolah Arc ( just started) , Toyotaro has managed to display quite some interesting moments that reflect elements of Goku and Vegeta's character that I think invite some decent conversation.

[ABED]

Perhaps one of these days, I'll get around to reading the Super manga, but not until it's over and I don't have to wait for new volumes.

[Matches Malone]

I don't have near the amount of dislike of current DB as you, Bruce... Matches. Damnit, why do I keep doing that?

It suffers from the issue with most of the revivals we see. There are more bad revivals than there are good ones and they all suffer great from a handful of big issues.

I don't see the issue as Goku not changing being an issue. He rarely did except in age and a little bit of worldliness, but he doesn't have grand changes like Gohan or Vegeta or Piccolo. He usually helps facilitate others' changes, which works great.

It's so hard to keep secrets these days. I don't dislike modern DB, I dislike the amount of potential it has wasted. I'm happy to say that the last and current arc have been taking things in the right direction, although there are plenty of improvements that still need to be made.

I wrote this about revivals in another topic, and I think it applies here as well. A work of art is more than the surface characters and world, but most importantly what the author him/herself bring to those characters and world. Any one of us can write a story with Goku and the dragon world in it, but it won't be Dragon Ball, the comic that began in 1984 and ended in 1995. Even if Toriyama himself were to write an ongoing manga again, it still won't be "that" comic from back in the day. The reason for this is simple, Toriyama isn't the same person he was back then. People change over time, and 2+ decades is enough to make anyone an unrecognizable person from who they were before. This is why a lot of revivals, despite having the same creative team as before, don't have the same feel. People change, and they bring those changes with them into their work. This is why I never understood how some can claim that Super is basically part of the original story, as even if it was written and drawn completely by Toriyama like back in the day, which it isn't, it would be impossible to capture the feeling of the original work, as art in a specific time can only happen once. The only way Super (and any other modern part of the franchise) can be part of the original work is for it to have been written in 1995, which it wasn't. No matter how hard they try, the original manga (520 chapters) and anime (508 episodes, 17 movies, 3 TV specials) can never be "truly" continued. They can make as many products as they want, and although they'll all be DB in one way or another, they'll never be "that" DB which was produced/drawn/written in the 80s and 90s.

What made Goku's lack of massive change in the original work was it being balanced out by the massive changes the new characters were going through, which is something modern DB lacks. It doesn't have new characters being introduced in nearly every arc and gradually developing into the group, it's just the daily adventures of Goku and Vegeta.

[Shinsa]

Will DB ever move past Goku? hmm i dont know.

Should it? In my opinion most definitely! As with everything, good things must come to an end and pass on.

As a person that hasn't read the Super manga but watched the anime a new generation, period in time and exploring /expanding cultures within the world will make universe feel more alive and diverse unlike the silly shallow God/multiverse idea in Super. Goku and gang have gotten to strong in my opinion with character development being non existent relying on old tropes and cliches. Some people can disgree and like that about DBS but in my opinion I find it shallow and just bad story telling unlike how DBZ expanded DB. If you're going to make a multiverse, spend time exploring and expanding it...not a silly tournament with characters they haven't given me a reason to care about.

With different characters or peroid we can find out more new and interesting things from a different perspective and how the world has or havent preceived Goku's Legacy. Not having Goku as the main doesnt mean he shouldnt be apart or atleast felt through out the show. He's the strongest guy on earth/universe so hes a big deal. He and the others truely shouldn't be ignored but passed on to the next generation. Thats how in my opinion DB could become more rich rather then it being staying pretty small, kind of like how Marvel/ DC comics and cartoon have multiple series/ characters.

Like honestly, why wouldn't you want a show, spin off or continuation with new characters that aren't goku and gang?
With that being said....if they want to go the route they atleast have to put some passion into the project to make it work. Or we can just continue with Super for an easy cash grab............

[ABED]

The best spin off are built around a character not a concept. I see no reason why Goku and the others can't do the things you mention like traverse the multiverse.

opinion with character development being non existent relying on old tropes and cliches. Some people can disgree and like that about DBS but in my opinion I find it shallow and just bad story telling unlike how DBZ expanded DB. If you're going to make a multiverse, spend time exploring and expanding it...not a silly tournament with characters they haven't given me a reason to care about.

I'm wondering what you believe was the way in which DBZ expanded DB and how it contrasts with how Super expanded it?

And while the character development has been lackluster in parts, far too many people overlook Gohan and Vegeta's developments.

[Shinsa]

The best spin off are built around a character not a concept. I see no reason why Goku and the others can't do the things you mention like traverse the multiverse.

opinion with character development being non existent relying on old tropes and cliches. Some people can disgree and like that about DBS but in my opinion I find it shallow and just bad story telling unlike how DBZ expanded DB. If you're going to make a multiverse, spend time exploring and expanding it...not a silly tournament with characters they haven't given me a reason to care about.

I'm wondering what you believe was the way in which DBZ expanded DB and how it contrasts with how Super expanded it?

And while the character development has been lackluster in parts, far too many people overlook Gohan and Vegeta's developments.

While i agree about Gohan and Vegeta and i'm not saying DBZ is master class writing but I find the development and universal travel in DBZ worked way better because it helped to develop Goku's character and the characters around him. Unlike Super in which I find the multiverse and god ki very unnecessary and adding nothing good or interesting for the characters. As i said before, for me it was very cliché and typical.

How i see it, just because DB and DBZ arent the best peice of writing and have many flaws doesn't mean Super has to follow them.

[ABED]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

[Shinsa]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

I'm not going to argue with you but I said DB and DBZ aren't master class writing but atleast had development of the world and characters forward in body and in mind. Goku from the start of Z was different from the Goku at the end of DB and same as for the end of Z. Vegeta from the start of Z was a different character from the end of Z . Gohan was great from the start of Z to end of Cell but developed into a teacher and a father (decent bookend to a character before Super was a thing imo, even thought its lame just because he's son of Goku doesnt mean he has to be a fighter forever). We are all DB fans so do I really need to spell out each and every time Goku has changed?
Also the world itself had advanced forward in time with its look and tone. The lore about Goku's past was expanded upon and delivered new loveable characters with depth. Even tho you gave the example of Toriyama dropping the ball with characters, they first started out as great with a lot of development. WE may not agree or like how some characters turned out but its there. Unlike in Super in which I feel pretty much regresses each character to typical tropes with no substantial growth or difference other then hair colour so they can merchandise the mascots. The lack of depth and threat in the world kill any kind of interest with in its story unless they decide to retcon EoZ.

This is all my opinion of course and yours will differ but I expect more from a show I grew up with as I'm older and wiser. Just because DB is a shonen anime with fighting and power levels doesn't mean it should do exactly what it did in the past and not evolve (saddly it does that but way worse....). Goku is a character that has had his time for years and years, so why not develop something or someone new? I can care less if its called Dragonball, as long as its within the world of DB and expands it I'll be interested.

[ABED]

He had a family but his personality wasn't different between end of DB and beginning of DBZ. I don't need everything spelled out for me but I need something other than you saying he did. How do you believe he changed?

Unlike in Super in which I feel pretty much regresses each character to typical tropes with no substantial growth or difference

What about Vegeta mellowing out and becoming a mentor or Gohan finally combining his natural intelligence with his battle power and talent as a fighter?

Goku is a character that has had his time for years and years, so why not develop something or someone new?

Why oh why does this forum love to single out Goku like he is the source of the problem and changing this element is a magic bullet? Even if it's not some cure-all, why are so many so sure that if you reduce Goku's presence, and no one else's, the story will be better off for it? How is keeping him as the lead preventing growth?

[jjgp1112]

I think something fans take for granted is that n Z, Goku being taken out of commission was leaned on so heavily as a plot device that we really don't see Goku doing much beyond fighting and making a couple of decisions...most of which are ill-advised decisions that go wrong. Whereas Super has him more actively involved in the plot, ergo more opportunities to be an idiot.

[90sDBZ]

Part of me wanted to see Gohan finish Buu after all his buildup, but at the end of the day I was happier seeing Goku return and wouldn't change it.

I don't think Goku ever should be replaced permanently. GT went a bit too far making everyone else useless, but at the same time I know I'd be bored to tears watching an entire series exclusively about Pan, Uub, Bulla, Goku Jr, Vegeta Jr or whoever. They can be interesting to a point, but not enough to carry an entire show.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think there's any reason why we can't have new Dragon Ball content without Goku. There would certainly need to be an adjustment period though. I think we're so conditioned to see Goku as an integral part of the show (and don't get me wrong I'm a Goku fan but I also appreciate experimentation) that anything else would seem jarring, but with good writers and direction plenty of characters could shine.

I liked the unpredictability of the Buu arc, as to who would defeat Buu in the end, but seeing Goku do it was a welcome departure from the cliched passing of the torch to one's children trope. I can see why a lot of people would like it, and it's very relatable but it's been done in plenty of stories, and it's not Toriyama's style to go the predictable route. By the same token Goku training Uub and Uub becoming the new lead could have worked as a "passing of the torch", but not to one's offspring, but another powerful prodigy so it's a departure from the norm but still inspired by the original trope. Taking the road less traveled, if you will.

Sadly GT didn't do nearly enough with Uub, and fusing with Buu only made the latter more useless. I would have liked to have seen an arc where Uub had to learn to control his immense power while Goku was needed elsewhere and couldn't train him anymore. And even though Super just treats Buu as no more than a gag character, he at least has some sort of a purpose, even if it's just causing inconvenience at the last moment. Pan had her moments, but still took a backseat to Goku for too much of the series, although boys being scared of her unusual strength could have been built upon, and we could have had a story about her struggles to live a typical teenage girl's life.

I do think Aya Matsui and Atsushi Maekawa could have utilized any of the characters in GT much better and fans would have had a lot more confidence in them leading their own long form stories. But hey, who knows, maybe someday someone will take a chance on developing these characters or other characters more.

[super michael]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

- Knowing when someone is lying to him, example Kami.
- No longer kills out of impulse and spare his enemies.
- Knowing to use their weakness to get what he wants, example Elder Kaioshin to help them.
- Being able to train others to become a better fighter and get stronger, example here is Gohan.
- Teaching step by step how fusion works to Goten, Trunks and Piccolo.
- No longer needs to pat someone in their part to know what gender they are. Can tell the difference between boy and girl.
- Knowing to use his sense of smell and sensing ki to know one identity and who is stronger.
- Knowing what to wish for when he has the Dragon Ball, which is revive those that were killed.
- Being able to react when someone sneak attack him, example when he was fighting against Ginyu and Jeice attacks him.

Those are DB and DBZ feats from Goku.

[ABED]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

- Knowing when someone is lying to him, example Kami.
- No longer kills out of impulse and spare his enemies.
- Knowing to use their weakness to get what he wants, example Elder Kaioshin to help them.
- Being able to train others to become a better fighter and get stronger, example here is Gohan.
- Teaching step by step how fusion works to Goten, Trunks and Piccolo.
- No longer needs to pat someone in their part to know what gender they are. Can tell the difference between boy and girl.
- Knowing to use his sense of smell and sensing ki to know one identity and who is stronger.
- Knowing what to wish for when he has the Dragon Ball, which is revive those that were killed.
- Being able to react when someone sneak attack him, example when he was fighting against Ginyu and Jeice attacks him.

Those are DB and DBZ feats from Goku.

younger Goku was willing to spare his enemies.
Goku always had a sharp sense of smell. That's not growth in DBZ, and he learned how to utilize ki in DB.
Stop making stuff up like those last two. Those aren't examples of anything.

God, you will find even the most asinine made up reason to shit on Super.