"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

Interesting drafts, I guess. I'm both a little relieved and a little concerned about Granolah's part, I think. I'm relieved that it wasn't instantly revealed what the price he had to pay was, but I'm concerned that the wish actually changed him right there and then. Hopefully it'll be explained in a satisfying way. (Maybe it'll be something like "You now only have one month to live." "That's fine, I've only lived for revenge anyway.")

As an aside, it's a bit bizarre to me to see Vegeta, at this level, needing two attempts to Hakai a small rock. A few years ago I made some fanart of EoZ Bulla being tutored by Beerus and Hakai-ing a small rock, with Vegeta reacting to it with shock. It's just a funny drawing, but this changes the perspective a little bit.

Spoiler:

I think our understanding of Hakai was limited. It seems like it’s more complex. I know a lot of fans thought Goku used Hakai against the rock trapping Moro but that wasn’t the case


That being said I wish there was more explanation of the method that makes it different. Just saying it’s not about breaking something but erasing it sounds interesting but I feel just telling Vegeta that and him being able to do it just like that is not very interesting. I wish there was more struggle and growth involved.

Also cute drawing!

[TheNingen]

I'm getting "Moro's secret wish on Namek" vibes and I don't like it. Many of the aspects of mystery that Toyo has been in charge of handling haven't been done particularly well. I'll wait for the chapter as well but I don't really feel myself brimming with excitement or optimism.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think my biggest concern is the expectation and the theories that this can create. I didn't love Moro's wish but it worked for the purpose of the story and the character (the problem was more the development of the prisoners than the wish itself). But as we have seen, this mystery lasted a few months and many people created expectations so high that I honestly don't think they could be met. It is not wrong to create expectations obviously, but it is always a minefield that if you are not careful the story can be spoiled for you. I just hope that the condition that Granolah submitted to is something that really negatively impacts the character (because that is a very OP wish tbh)

I think our understanding of Hakai was limited. It seems like it’s more complex. I know a lot of fans thought Goku used Hakai against the rock trapping Moro but that wasn’t the case

That being said I wish there was more explanation of the method that makes it different. Just saying it’s not about breaking something but erasing it sounds interesting but I feel just telling Vegeta that and him being able to do it just like that is not very interesting. I wish there was more struggle and growth involved.

Also cute drawing!

I mean, Hakai was kind of explained in the drafts. Erasing the material body produces large amounts of energy (more than usual energy blasts, as we saw Vegeta flexing the stone with his Ki and generating a much smaller explosion than Beerus using the Hakai, or even the Hakai that Vegeta himself uses afterwards in front of the Oracle Fish).

And Goku kind of imitated Hakai against Zamasu, it's not a big deal Vegeta being able to use a fraction of that power quickly (and for now he just erased a small stone, he said he would soon be able to do the same with larger objects so he obviously needs more training)

[Koitsukai]

For me the condition has to be something that Granolah will come to regret. Otherwise it won’t feel like a real cost

The condition is probably he gains the power to be the strongest warrior in the universe but cannot kill anyone. Only beat them up badly

I think I can tell what the condition is given this image we see. Granolah didn’t just turn into a Super Saiyan 3 like people have been memeing about on Twitter. I’m pretty confident in saying that Granolah is Older here. We see a Cerealian in his flashback in Chapter 68 whose hair is almost identical to Granolah’s now. Given how Young and Youthful he has been so far I think becoming the Strongest in the universe but having it drain his life force and he has to get his revenge before his life runs out would be quite the motivator for this arc to get into high gear.


Weather that part is true or not I think it is gonna be true that Granolah is older here and thats part of it.

I like this theory, basically it could mean that the dragon just aged Granola in order to get him stronger, taking his body "when" his FP would "be".

[Alruneia]

Interesting drafts, I guess. I'm both a little relieved and a little concerned about Granolah's part, I think. I'm relieved that it wasn't instantly revealed what the price he had to pay was, but I'm concerned that the wish actually changed him right there and then. Hopefully it'll be explained in a satisfying way. (Maybe it'll be something like "You now only have one month to live." "That's fine, I've only lived for revenge anyway.")

As an aside, it's a bit bizarre to me to see Vegeta, at this level, needing two attempts to Hakai a small rock. A few years ago I made some fanart of EoZ Bulla being tutored by Beerus and Hakai-ing a small rock, with Vegeta reacting to it with shock. It's just a funny drawing, but this changes the perspective a little bit.

Spoiler:

I think our understanding of Hakai was limited. It seems like it’s more complex. I know a lot of fans thought Goku used Hakai against the rock trapping Moro but that wasn’t the case

That being said I wish there was more explanation of the method that makes it different. Just saying it’s not about breaking something but erasing it sounds interesting but I feel just telling Vegeta that and him being able to do it just like that is not very interesting. I wish there was more struggle and growth involved.

Also cute drawing!

Thanks!

Anyway, if this is the road Vegeta's gonna go down this arc, then I'm sure we'll see some more info about how it works. Like TheSaiyanGod says, there's already a little bit of new info in the drafts. And also, if Vegeta's really gonna master using Hakai in this arc, then a pretty significant limitation to it will have to be introduced, because it's pretty much an insta-win at the moment, not counting Zamasu's immortality. Toyotaro will have to add an explanation as to why Vegeta can't just destroy his enemies instantly when things start to go south.

[Koitsukai]

Anyway, if this is the road Vegeta's gonna go down this arc, then I'm sure we'll see some more info about how it works. Like TheSaiyanGod says, there's already a little bit of new info in the drafts. And also, if Vegeta's really gonna master using Hakai in this arc, then a pretty significant limitation to it will have to be introduced, because it's pretty much an insta-win at the moment, not counting Zamasu's immortality. Toyotaro will have to add an explanation as to why Vegeta can't just destroy his enemies instantly when things start to go south.

Wasn't this already introduced? hakaiing someone erases them from existence, no afterlife, no hell, nothing, you are gone, and with Vegeta becoming an increasingly better person with every arc, he'd only use the full hakai power against Moro-level of evil characters.
While using the non-lethal hakai, like the one he withstood last month, against dudes like Goku, Jiren, Broly or even Granola, as long as he remains non-evil.
My take is that controlling hakai to the level of Beerus where he can use it to break your armor and that's it, would need a lot of training. In that event, then Vegeta would have everything under control, he can KO you or erase you, but before that time, then he'd have to erase you or fight you regularly.


Also, yeah, nice art!

[Kinokima]

Interesting drafts, I guess. I'm both a little relieved and a little concerned about Granolah's part, I think. I'm relieved that it wasn't instantly revealed what the price he had to pay was, but I'm concerned that the wish actually changed him right there and then. Hopefully it'll be explained in a satisfying way. (Maybe it'll be something like "You now only have one month to live." "That's fine, I've only lived for revenge anyway.")

As an aside, it's a bit bizarre to me to see Vegeta, at this level, needing two attempts to Hakai a small rock. A few years ago I made some fanart of EoZ Bulla being tutored by Beerus and Hakai-ing a small rock, with Vegeta reacting to it with shock. It's just a funny drawing, but this changes the perspective a little bit.

Spoiler:

I think our understanding of Hakai was limited. It seems like it’s more complex. I know a lot of fans thought Goku used Hakai against the rock trapping Moro but that wasn’t the case

That being said I wish there was more explanation of the method that makes it different. Just saying it’s not about breaking something but erasing it sounds interesting but I feel just telling Vegeta that and him being able to do it just like that is not very interesting. I wish there was more struggle and growth involved.

Also cute drawing!

Thanks!

Anyway, if this is the road Vegeta's gonna go down this arc, then I'm sure we'll see some more info about how it works. Like TheSaiyanGod says, there's already a little bit of new info in the drafts. And also, if Vegeta's really gonna master using Hakai in this arc, then a pretty significant limitation to it will have to be introduced, because it's pretty much an insta-win at the moment, not counting Zamasu's immortality. Toyotaro will have to add an explanation as to why Vegeta can't just destroy his enemies instantly when things start to go south.

It’s Vegeta so of course there is going to be some major limitation. I’d love if the limitation was something mental in this arc because he is going up against someone the Saiyans destroyed but it will probably be something stupid like if the other character is more powerful then the power can be countered. I mean that DOES make sense but it seems that is always the case with Vegeta’s new powers. It was the same with the Spirit Control against Moro.

And I missed that explanation of Hakai in the drafts

[TheSaiyanGod]

It’s Vegeta so of course there is going to be some major limitation. I’d love if the limitation was something mental in this arc because he is going up against someone the Saiyans destroyed but it will probably be something stupid like if the other character is more powerful then the power can be countered. I mean that DOES make sense but it seems that is always the case with Vegeta’s new powers. It was the same with the Spirit Control against Moro.

And I missed that explanation of Hakai in the drafts

Translation of the scene (by MShadows from Narutoforums)

Spoiler:

Beerus: You just broke it by flexing your power. The Hakai we Gods of Destruction use completely erases the existence of things from this world. We basically turn "1" into "0". When the material body is erased, a tremendous amount of energy is unleashed.
Goku: Is Beerus destroying things again?
Vegeta: What power!
Beerus: This explosion just now is the beauty of destruction. Can't get enough of it. Huh? Shit! I just destroyed this month's issue of God Comics!
Goku: Vegeta... he's getting taught by Beerus.
Whis: Does that concern you?
Goku: No, Vegeta is Vegeta. I must focus on improving Ultra Instinct. We'll see who'll become the strongest in the universe!
Whis: Oh my, but there's no guarantee that the strongest in the universe will end up being either of you.
Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: Well, I do not... but there's no telling when another strong being will show up considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?
Oracle Fish: Huh? Oh yeah... The strongest warrior in the universe will shortly be born.
Whis: See!
Vegeta: He's talking about me!
Oracle Fish: Vegeta?
Goku: Hey, that's the Hakai technique! Wow, you're really good, Vegeta!
Vegeta: I will soon be able to destroy much larger things than what you just saw right now

[Kodoshin]

This whole "terms and conditions" thing just makes me think of that South Park episode. Doubt this goes quite that dark though. Excited to see this new arc coming together though.

[batistabus]

I think our understanding of Hakai was limited. It seems like it’s more complex. I know a lot of fans thought Goku used Hakai against the rock trapping Moro but that wasn’t the case

Like you said, Hakai is more complex than we thought. This "new" application is explosive, similar to what Beerus seems to use on planets. We know he's also capable of a more "calm" version that reduces the object to dust/sand (it's what Beerus used against Zamasu/the egg in BoG, and that's what Goku tried to copy).

When Vegeta presumably masters Hakai, you'd think he could just erase his opponent outright. That wouldn't make for a very interesting fight, and maybe it's not possible to Hakai someone who's strength surpasses your own (similar to how Hit's Time-Skip works, for example). Maybe he'll focus on destroying objects around his opponents (rocks, clothes, etc.).

[Gogeta_Blue]

It takes Vegeta several tries with intense focus to Hakai a tiny rock, yet Goku was evaporating fused Zamasu with it on his first go. I don't know if that makes Vegeta look bad or Goku look too good.

I'm inclined to say the latter because in the FT arc, had Goku ever seen Hakai performed? He wasn't around when Beerus dusted Zamasu in the manga. How did he even know it was a thing, much less how to do it?

[Trouser]

"considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?"

But... it's only 28 planets. Is DBS retconing itself again?

[SupremeKai25]

"considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?"

But... it's only 28 planets. Is DBS retconing itself again?

They never said it has 28 planets... only that it has 28 planets with ningen life. Meaning that it could have 1.000 abandoned planets (like Planet Vampa) and then 28 planets with actual civilizations in them.

Which makes sense, given how Majin Buu, Frieza, the Saiyans, and then obviously Moro rampaged across the universe for eons, with the Gods doing nothing.

This arc literally happens because the Saiyans wiped out a ningen civilization.

[Koitsukai]

It takes Vegeta several tries with intense focus to Hakai a tiny rock, yet Goku was evaporating fused Zamasu with it on his first go. I don't know if that makes Vegeta look bad or Goku look too good.

I'm inclined to say the latter because in the FT arc, had Goku ever seen Hakai performed? He wasn't around when Beerus dusted Zamasu in the manga. How did he even know it was a thing, much less how to do it?

Goku has probably been keeping up with the DBS anime, I guess he tuned in to the episode where Beerus hakais Zamasu. Goku watching the anime explains many things like trying kaioken on top of blue.

[SupremeKai25]

Didn't Goku learn Hakai by training with Beerus off-screen or something like that? I'm pretty sure that was the reason that Toyotaro's fanboys gave to explain how Goku pulling Hakai out of his ass TOTALLY WASN'T as bad as Trunks pulling the Sword of Friendship out of his ass.

At least it would have made sense if Goku used Hakai after seeing Beerus directly use it against Zamasu, but he never did in the manga.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Didn't Goku learn Hakai by training with Beerus off-screen or something like that? I'm pretty sure that was the reason that Toyotaro's fanboys gave to explain how Goku pulling Hakai out of his ass TOTALLY WASN'T as bad as Trunks pulling the Sword of Friendship out of his ass.

Vegeta recognises the technique as Beerus's in that same moment as well, so it's clearly implied that they've both seen Beerus use it before Goku tries it.

[SupremeKai25]

Didn't Goku learn Hakai by training with Beerus off-screen or something like that? I'm pretty sure that was the reason that Toyotaro's fanboys gave to explain how Goku pulling Hakai out of his ass TOTALLY WASN'T as bad as Trunks pulling the Sword of Friendship out of his ass.

Vegeta recognises the technique as Beerus's in that same moment as well, so it's clearly implied that they've both seen Beerus use it before Goku tries it.

There you go, I guess it's as straight-forward as simply watching someone do it, how perceptive of these saiyans.

[TBMx]

But I thought Hakai "suited" Vegeta better? LOL.

He can't even erase a pebble while Goku erased half of Merged Zamasu's face off. Yet coping fans are trying to say Hakai suits Vegeta better. What a laughing stock.

Vegeta's such a bum.

[Magnificent Ponta]

There you go, I guess it's as straight-forward as simply watching someone do it, how perceptive of these saiyans.

It's hardly untypical - Goku's been doing that sort of thing since DB #15.

Plus, it's a real cool moment.

[SupremeKai25]

There you go, I guess it's as straight-forward as simply watching someone do it, how perceptive of these saiyans.

It's hardly untypical - Goku's been doing that sort of thing since DB #15.

Plus, it's a real cool moment.

I'd say there's a difference between a stupid ningen technique and literally the signature attack of the Destroyer Gods, certainly it should be harder to learn Hakai. I can buy Goku managing to use Hakai on something small like a rock, but not on HALF OF FUSED ZAMASU like he did in the Future Trunks arc.