"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TBMx]

There you go, I guess it's as straight-forward as simply watching someone do it, how perceptive of these saiyans.

It's hardly untypical - Goku's been doing that sort of thing since DB #15.

Plus, it's a real cool moment.

I'd say there's a difference between a stupid ningen technique and literally the signature attack of the Destroyer Gods, certainly it should be harder to learn Hakai. I can buy Goku managing to use Hakai on something small like a rock, but not on HALF OF FUSED ZAMASU like he did in the Future Trunks arc.

That was only interrupted when Zamasu desperately took a hostage.

I'm not sure what reaction I'm supposed to have with Vegeta here. Am I supposed to be impressed? Surely not. It seems more set up like they want us to mock Vegeta.

That we're supposed to think "Goku's so AWESOME compared to that Vegeta!" He was far better than Vegeta at Hakai with far less effort! Goku's so cool! Here's my money! I want that new Goku action figure!

Like thats the intention as far as I can tell. Thats just hilarious.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I'd say there's a difference between a stupid ningen technique and literally the signature attack of the Destroyer Gods, certainly it should be harder to learn Hakai. I can buy Goku managing to use Hakai on something small like a rock, but not on HALF OF FUSED ZAMASU like he did in the Future Trunks arc.

I dunno, makes sense to me - he's gathered literally all of his Blue power and fired it in Zamas's face all at once in order to replicate the effect of the Hakai, so his attempt seems kind of simplified compared to the description of a 'proper' Hakai we're getting now (Goku did, after all, say he messed it up); and given a bog-standard Kamehameha from a drained Goku punched a hole straight through Zamas, one should frankly expect something that much more powerful to do something dramatic.

[SupremeKai25]

I'd say there's a difference between a stupid ningen technique and literally the signature attack of the Destroyer Gods, certainly it should be harder to learn Hakai. I can buy Goku managing to use Hakai on something small like a rock, but not on HALF OF FUSED ZAMASU like he did in the Future Trunks arc.

I dunno, makes sense to me - he's gathered literally all of his Blue power and fired it in Zamas's face all at once in order to replicate the effect of the Hakai, so his attempt seems kind of simplified compared to the description of a 'proper' Hakai we're getting now (Goku did, after all, say he messed it up); and given a bog-standard Kamehameha from a drained Goku punched a hole straight through Zamas, one should frankly expect something that much more powerful to do something dramatic.

Did he mess up? I'm pretty sure he could've erased all of Fused Zamasu's body, if the latter wasn't smart enough to grab Mai and use her as meat shield. It seemed like his attack was being very effective, half of Fused Zamasu was literally pulverized in seconds, even though obviously we know he would have survived because he was immortal (Hakai can't kill immortals).

[Magnificent Ponta]

Did he mess up?

Well, he says he did. I guess it depends how you interpret what he means by that; supposing he didn't do Hakai 'properly' seems a natural enough interpretation, given what we're learning.

I'm pretty sure he could've erased all of Fused Zamasu's body, if the latter wasn't smart enough to grab Mai and use her as meat shield.

Probably, yes. But Zamas is also a classic case of Dragon Ball's inverse correlation between durability and regenerative capability, so blowing him away with a huge wall of power isn't all that surprising.

[batistabus]

Did he mess up?

At the very least, his utilization of the technique was much slower than what Beerus is capable of. Since he didn't understand the fundamentals of the technique, it's possible he was just doing his best to replicate the result, but wasn't utilizing his energy in a proper Destruction-like way. Perhaps you could compare it to Kame-sen'nin's pseudo-Migatte no Gokui.

[Kinokima]

It takes Vegeta several tries with intense focus to Hakai a tiny rock, yet Goku was evaporating fused Zamasu with it on his first go. I don't know if that makes Vegeta look bad or Goku look too good.

I'm inclined to say the latter because in the FT arc, had Goku ever seen Hakai performed? He wasn't around when Beerus dusted Zamasu in the manga. How did he even know it was a thing, much less how to do it?

Goku said he failed at the Hakai technique. So what ever Goku did was similar but he did not do it correctly.

It seems Vegeta used Hakai correctly against the small rock

Granted when they were writing it they probably were just trying to give Goku a cool moment and were not thinking they were going to have Vegeta start the technique from scratch later down the line. But the last chapter does acknowledge this moment and states that Goku failed at it despite what it may have looked like to us.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To be fair, at that time none of these concepts existed about the current arc's Hakai. It was not supposed to be a technique capable of making Vegeta match an Ultra Instinct user, nor was it said to be a technique that "is not easily mastered", according to Whis. That's why we now have Goku saying that he "messed it up" when he used it against Zamasu (and being surprised by Vegeta erasing a small rock).

[Kinokima]

To be fair, at that time none of these concepts existed about the current arc's Hakai. It was not supposed to be a technique capable of making Vegeta match an Ultra Instinct user, nor was it said to be a technique that "is not easily mastered", according to Whis. That's why we now have Goku saying that he "messed uit p" when he used it against Zamasu (and being surprised by Vegeta erasing a small rock).

Yeah I can understand people saying Goku did it against Zamasu and Vegeta is only starting with a rock if the narrative didn’t even acknowledge what Goku had done but it literally did the chapter before.

Granted you can argue it’s a bit of a retcon but this won’t be the first or last time that happens. And at least they acknowledged it and didn’t just ignore what we thought we knew from before.

[TBMx]

You know they didn't have to pick Hakai for Vegeta's new thing, right? They could have come up with an original idea. They wrote Vegeta struggling to Hakai a rock fully knowing Goku hakai'd Zamasu's face off, forcing Zamasu to take a hostage to survive it. They knew Goku pulled this off with no training and having never been established as having seen it before when they decided to give this to Vegeta.

They're fully aware that the outcome will be that fans will think the prior Goku feat is more impressive and that the prior Goku is more impressive than current Vegeta for it. That's exactly what they want.

Them halfheartedly having Goku try to put over the pebble erasing feat doesn't change that at all. It's like someone getting an A in a test and then telling someone they got a D grade that the A was a failure because it wasn't an A+. Well done on your D though little buddy! You'e the success!

Thats exactly what this is. It's Goku patronising Vegeta. And the writers patronizing us. They tell us this is supposed to be impressive for Vegeta but they know what they're doing. Its all for Goku.

All indirect Goku worship.

[DiscountDabi]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

[jd55513]

Based on Herms translation and what we already know about Dragon wishes and the mechanics of it.
I would say that Granola wished to be the strongest mortal and had his "latent potential" released, similar to the elder ki ritual, except the Dragon required a "condition" to make him the strongest based on potential.

If we are still going off the Toriyama statements about Power and Strength.
Which is how much ki and your control of it. Then their is the Spiritual aspect of ki, which were not included in the wish, most likely.
Granola now has the raw power, but without proper training and the spritual aspects on ki
Which is Genki, Shoki and Yuki. Granola will likely have trouble maximizing the raw power he has.

As for the condition, well it has to be something that balances the power of such a wish.
My guess is similar to the theme from the Moro arc. If you don't have a trained body to handle raw Strength (Saganbo or Moro) then the power will be useless or possibly deadly. Perhaps this is the challenge Granola will have to face.
He needs a better body or "Nikutai"

[TBMx]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

[DiscountDabi]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad. If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

[JulieYBM]

I wonder if the condition is something like Granola slowly turning into a Saiyan or one of Freeza's people? That would be a dark ending.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Ppl have to temper their wild expectations lol last arc it was hoping Moro's last wish was opening the gate to the demon realm.
I learned from that arc to judge it as a whole and not on each individual monthly chapter.as they come.

[pepd]

So there are two possibilities regarding the condition:
1. Its a side effect of the method used to grand the wish. The most likely imo, considering it exists because the wish was out of the dragon's powers and he mentioned he could only unlock his potential.
2. Its some kind of "anti-whish" to compensate for the wish-energy or whatever. Not a fan of it a priory.

Really hope his hair just grew because he is older or something and is not a transformation. Also, the art is really good, specially the angles.

[Lionel]

Don't suppose there's any equivalent discipline for Kaioshin is there? You have destruction being incorporated as a school of combat that's comparable to Ultra Instinct. Is anything like that viable for creation?

[Extreme_kai]

I think it would be interesting if the condition for the wish would be that he lost his senses, mainly his sight. He can sense ki energy, I guess, but how would he know whose it was? Freeza and the Saiyans could be right in front of his face and he wouldn't even know. We shall see, but I think that would be somewhat interesting if he was blind.

[SupremeKai25]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad. If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Frankly I don't give a shit about Vegeta, but it makes Fused Zamasu look bad in retrospective. Because he was almost destroyed (physically) by a casual Hakai that Goku even messed up.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Maybe it's a little early to say, but the juxtaposition between Vegeta and Granolah again seems suggestive here, and I quite like it:

Vegeta has been told to start from scratch, has accepted it and is admittedly doing very small things, but - importantly - he's going about things in the right way, and may well get the due reward of that.

Granolah, by contrast, has been told to make a fresh start in life instead of clinging to revenge, but instead he's continuing to do the wrong thing, and now he's going about it in the wrong way by simply wishing himself to be the strongest (so, going for it in a big way, too), and it seems the condition underscores that this wrongful approach will come to grief.

I look forward to seeing how these opposing character arcs intersect, beyond the fight that will doubtless come down the line.