Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Do people here actually think videogame statements are valid and canon? Some people are seriously pushing an agenda that "SS4 Gogeta > Ultra Instinct" just because a few Fighterz characters jerk off to SS4's hype or something like that. I can't believe people are seriously acting like videogame interactions are now canon and can be used for power-scaling lol. Like what is this, what is the meaning of this:

https://twitter.com/GoodDayScholars/sta ... _&ref_url=

Regarding this, it looks like it was an english mistranslation (or done on purpose, don't know), in the japanese version no comparison was made. We have Cipher to thank for the clarification.

https://twitter.com/GodlyFlat/status/13 ... 74308?s=20

[GodVegetto91]

Do people here actually think videogame statements are valid and canon? Some people are seriously pushing an agenda that "SS4 Gogeta > Ultra Instinct" just because a few Fighterz characters jerk off to SS4's hype or something like that. I can't believe people are seriously acting like videogame interactions are now canon and can be used for power-scaling lol. Like what is this, what is the meaning of this:

https://twitter.com/GoodDayScholars/sta ... _&ref_url=

This guy is as bad as they come. I’m not a fan of him at all.

All Gohan said was: “This form is different from Blue and UI.”

(Which is true!) He never said it was stronger than them.

But SaiyanScholar (previously known as “The SSJ4 Guy”) doesn’t care one bit about that. He has an agenda to role out afterall.. Just like you said, SupremeKai25.

Translation by Cipher:

”That form Dad and Vegeta had... So there’s another transformation besides Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct...”

[SupremeKai25]

Lol well to be honest I didn't really care that much, because at the end of the day it's just videogame banter. But it did seem weird to me how the producers of that game would randomly include "SS4 Gogeta > UI", knowing that that would (obviously) make a lot of people mad... so now it makes more sense that it was just a mistranslation.

[TheQuestioner]

I suppose someone in the localization team really wanted to push for a certain scaling unless they somehow misinterpreted the original Japanese. If it was a mistake, I'm concerned. I really wish it was a part of the original Japanese though, the chaos might've been fun to witness.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Therefore, the scale is clear and simple now guys.

Current SSBE Vegeta >>>> Gogeta Blue > Broly >>>>>>>> Jiren > Belmod > Toppo.

None of that is a fact, nothing puts Vegeta above Broly or Jiren.

This exactly.

[Dragon Wukong]

In particular, I wouldn't go around saying anything is stronger than Gogeta Blue definitively. That's a character who far outclassed someone who was said to potentially be stronger than Beerus.

Is it possible? Maybe? But there's nothing definitive to say so or even imply, to be quite frank.

[Miracles]

Goku asks Whis who is stronger than he and Vegeta, since it's not just them competing for the strongest in the universe title. Whis said he didn't know of anyone [lol This includes Broly too] stronger than Goku and Vegeta. However, Whis stated the universe is a big place and you never know when the NEXT strong entity will appear. This also justifies Goku's "toughest ever" statement concerning Moro being about strength.

The circle is forming nicely. I've told many of you here...Goku and Whis convo backs up Toriyama's power elevation plot even more. It's over.

[apex_pretador]

instead of the placement of Broly in the current heirarchy, I have a more interesting question in mind - where do the heeters crew stand in relation to old baddies (ginyu force and Namek Freeza), and approximately how strong was old Granolah (before wish)?

[GodVegetto91]

Therefore, the scale is clear and simple now guys.

Current SSBE Vegeta >>>> Gogeta Blue > Broly >>>>>>>> Jiren > Belmod > Toppo.

None of that is a fact, nothing puts Vegeta above Broly or Jiren.

This exactly.

Yes, it does. You need to do your research first before commenting false information.

[Xeno Goku Black]

There was no fact that put Jiren above Broly in that page or that Vegeta was stronger than Jiren. That's not how facts work.

[GodVegetto91]

There was no fact that put Jiren above Broly in that page or that Vegeta was stronger than Jiren. That's not how facts work.

I get it, you want Jiren to be stronger than Broly. But that’s not how Dragon Ball works pal.

The Broly movie had already put an end to that stupid debate AGES ago. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this..

Countless different promo material have confirmed that Broly was the single strongest foe Goku and Co had fought up until that point. This includes Jiren. This debate needs to end now.

Previous enemies being stronger than later enemies is NOT how Dragon Ball works!

The only reason why people are still questioning this, is because they have a bias towards Jiren over Broly.. That’s the plain truth. But here’s a newsflash for you: The writers of Dragon Ball don’t CARE about which character you like better.

Broly >>>> Jiren is a fact.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

[Koitsukai]

instead of the placement of Broly in the current heirarchy, I have a more interesting question in mind - where do the heeters crew stand in relation to old baddies (ginyu force and Namek Freeza), and approximately how strong was old Granolah (before wish)?

That's still pretty up in the air. We only know that their strongest member, Gas, easily wiped the floor with Granolah, who believed he could take Freeza, before he is told that Freeza is much stronger now.
Was Granolah saying he can surpass the 530,000 BP of Freeza or the 120 millions Goku fought in Namek?
It could be possible that he was talking about Freeza's full power, after all Freeza was rescued and treated for almost a year, perhaps word spread around and his incredible power was no longer a secret. In that case, Granolah before the wish could've been as strong as a SS from the android arc, and the more-than-likely surpressed Gas could've been as strong as the androids were. Personally, I don't think his current full power is beyond Dabura.

But if Granolah was talking about defeating first form Freeza because he only knew about his most-known form, then Gas could be as strong as base/KK Goku was vs Freeza.

[Jack Bz]

Granolah's a strange one. I think him defeating all of the 7-3s, head crystal weakness or not, means that he has the speed and reflexes of someone pretty powerful. Him thinking he could beat Freeza makes me think he is about as strong as a namek arc super saiyan as well.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

I agree that Broly > Jiren, but Toriyama definitely does occasionally stray from this formula. The obvious example is Beerus being stronger than Freeza, but there's also Super Boo being stronger than Pure Boo, and I definitely got the impression that U6 arc Hit in the manga is weaker than Golden Freeza and only in the realm of a super saiyan god when he powers up to his max (which he can only sustain briefly).

[GodVegetto91]

Granolah's a strange one. I think him defeating all of the 7-3s, head crystal weakness or not, means that he has the speed and reflexes of someone pretty powerful. Him thinking he could beat Freeza makes me think he is about as strong as a namek arc super saiyan as well.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

I agree that Broly > Jiren, but Toriyama definitely does occasionally stray from this formula. The obvious example is Beerus being stronger than Freeza, but there's also Super Boo being stronger than Pure Boo, and I definitely got the impression that U6 arc Hit in the manga is weaker than Golden Freeza and only in the realm of a super saiyan god when he powers up to his max (which he can only sustain briefly).

Fine.. But Broly is DEFINITELY stronger than Jiren!

ALL available evidence points towards this..!

The next main antagonist is only weaker than the last if there is SUFFICIENT evidence to prove it.

There is ZERO real proof that Jiren is stronger than Broly. But there IS proof for Broly being stronger than Jiren.

[Nevaeh]

If Broly/Jiren was as clear cut as you say it is, people wouldn't be constantly arguing about it

[Thani]

If Broly/Jiren was as clear cut as you say it is, people wouldn't be constantly arguing about it

This.

[Grand Marshal 1]

But guys, it all leads towards, our own HEADCANNON, being interpreted as FACTS.

I got Toriyama's email and we talk about scaling all the time.


I don't undertsand why we go through these debates again and again, when there is no definitive answer and we mostly agree to move on. Coming back to the same topic again and again and again to prove things that have not been proven is a waste of time.

[Koitsukai]

If there's something we DO NOT have regarding Broly and Jiren is evidence.

[GodVegetto91]

This is just stupid.. The cold hard fact is that we don’t even NEED evidence for Broly being above Jiren..

All we need is to NOT have evidence AGAINST it.

Remember, Next enemy > Previous enemy should always be ASSUMED automatically.

That’s how Occam’s Razor works.

The only time it should even be QUESTIONED is when there is sufficient evidence against it.

(Such as in the case of Golden Freeza > Hit in the Manga. Or Super Buu > Kid Buu.)

Otherwise, the next enemy is ALWAYS >>>> the previous enemy.

For Beerus > Golden Freeza there is evidence. For Golden Freeza > Hit (MANGA!) There is evidence.

And for Super Buu > Kid Buu there is evidence aswell!

There is NO evidence however, for Jiren >>>> Broly. No evidence AT ALL whatsoever...

So can we please stop this now?

It seems people have an unhealthy bias towards Jiren and against Broly. But evidence is not on your side at all.

I shall repeat again the important thing to do:

Unless there is evidence against it, ALWAYS ASSUME THE NEXT ENEMY > PREVIOUS ENEMY!

This means that yes, Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Occam’s Razor guys!

Keep it simple!

[Koitsukai]

Tradition isn't evidence either.