Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Triggered Vegeta]

This is just stupid.. The cold hard fact is that we don’t even NEED evidence for Broly being above Jiren..

All we need is to NOT have evidence AGAINST it.

Remember, Next enemy > Previous enemy should always be ASSUMED automatically.

That’s how Occam’s Razor works.

The only time it should even be QUESTIONED is when there is sufficient evidence against it.

(Such as in the case of Golden Freeza > Hit in the Manga. Or Super Buu > Kid Buu.)

Otherwise, the next enemy is ALWAYS >>>> the previous enemy.

For Beerus > Golden Freeza there is evidence. For Golden Freeza > Hit (MANGA!) There is evidence.

And for Super Buu > Kid Buu there is evidence aswell!

There is NO evidence however, for Jiren >>>> Broly. No evidence AT ALL whatsoever...

So can we please stop this now?

It seems people have an unhealthy bias towards Jiren and against Broly. But evidence is not on your side at all.

I shall repeat again the important thing to do:

Unless there is evidence against it, ALWAYS ASSUME THE NEXT ENEMY > PREVIOUS ENEMY!

This means that yes, Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Occam’s Razor guys!

Keep it simple!

I agree with some of this except I have it

Moro 7-3 > Broly > Jiren. I do not believe Prime Moro is above Broly. At most he's on par with Jiren(Manga) or a miniscule amount stronger imo.

[GodVegetto91]

This is just stupid.. The cold hard fact is that we don’t even NEED evidence for Broly being above Jiren..

All we need is to NOT have evidence AGAINST it.

Remember, Next enemy > Previous enemy should always be ASSUMED automatically.

That’s how Occam’s Razor works.

The only time it should even be QUESTIONED is when there is sufficient evidence against it.

(Such as in the case of Golden Freeza > Hit in the Manga. Or Super Buu > Kid Buu.)

Otherwise, the next enemy is ALWAYS >>>> the previous enemy.

For Beerus > Golden Freeza there is evidence. For Golden Freeza > Hit (MANGA!) There is evidence.

And for Super Buu > Kid Buu there is evidence aswell!

There is NO evidence however, for Jiren >>>> Broly. No evidence AT ALL whatsoever...

So can we please stop this now?

It seems people have an unhealthy bias towards Jiren and against Broly. But evidence is not on your side at all.

I shall repeat again the important thing to do:

Unless there is evidence against it, ALWAYS ASSUME THE NEXT ENEMY > PREVIOUS ENEMY!

This means that yes, Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

Occam’s Razor guys!

Keep it simple!

I agree with some of this except I have it

Moro 7-3 > Broly > Jiren. I do not believe Prime Moro is above Broly. At most he's on par with Jiren(Manga) or a miniscule amount stronger imo.

This is possibly the worst conclusion that one could ever come to and one that I entirely detest. But fine, you’re allowed to have your opinion.

I prefer to go all the way with Occam’s Razor, by simply having the next villain ALWAYS stronger than the last (unless something entirely contradicts it.)

Let me be clear here..

I LOVE Prime Moro..

I think he’s a much better character than Moro 73, and I DEFINITELY prefer his design over Moro 73’s...

So yes, there is ALSO some bias involved here on my part..

But that doesn’t matter, since the objective facts remain:

Prime Moro is the next antagonist after Broly, and no hard evidence exists that puts Broly definitively above Prime Moro.

My simple motto?

If Moro 73 is above Broly, than you might aswell have Prime Moro above Broly aswell. (Who is naturally stronger than Jiren ofcourse.)

According to Piccolo:

”Prime Moro had reached a level that cannot be overcome with mere training alone.”

A “Full Power” punch from Post Yardrat Spirit Control training SSBE Vegeta didn’t even PHASE Prime Moro!

[GodVegetto91]

We finally have an explanation of how Hakai works, I guess?

I think that all this time nothing has been said about it except that the technique looks like a glorified Ki blast (except the version that turns the target into dust). Apparently the use of Hakai produces a much greater power than the user using his energy in a conventional way, so the technique actually increases the user's destructive / raw power. Looking at how small objects produced large amounts of energy that impressed Vegeta, a better mastery of the technique should unleash much more power.

It’s a conversion. By erasing things from existence it creates an aftereffect which is the production of insane power.

That’s actually interesting.

About Hakai; So we finally get more exposition on it. Hakai expels so much energy that it actually removes materials from existence! Compared to normal Ki blasts which just breaks, shatters, etc.

That's legit crazy power.

What do you guys think?

[Grand Marshal 1]

I mean wasn't it always the case, since day 1 more or less, that hakai was erasure? The anime did a good job explaining it and the Manga to some degree I guess.

And Beerus' explanation just validates all previous knowledge.

I kinda got dissapointed when the hyped technique Beerus would show to Vegeta ended up being hakai, but I digress.

As for hakai's aftereffects... Well, I appreciate how they went for a more scientific approach to it. Energy does indeed release if matter is annihilated although to do that irl, you need anti-matter.

I don't think anything has changed. But it will be interesting to see how it works in bloodlusted battles. Goku apparently messed up against an immortal (2 negative factors) and Toppo in the anime at least, could utilize Hakai but not erase Vegeta, which brought up the whole 'can hakai destroy stronger beings' thing for years.

If Vegeta tries to hakai Granolah and it doesn't work, it will be interesting, but if it does and Granolah simply tanks, I guess it will still be acceptable.

[GodVegetto91]

I mean wasn't it always the case, since day 1 more or less, that hakai was erasure? The anime did a good job explaining it and the Manga to some degree I guess.

And Beerus' explanation just validates all previous knowledge.

I kinda got dissapointed when the hyped technique Beerus would show to Vegeta ended up being hakai, but I digress.

As for hakai's aftereffects... Well, I appreciate how they went for a more scientific approach to it. Energy does indeed release if matter is annihilated although to do that irl, you need anti-matter.

I don't think anything has changed. But it will be interesting to see how it works in bloodlusted battles. Goku apparently messed up against an immortal (2 negative factors) and Toppo in the anime at least, could utilize Hakai but not erase Vegeta, which brought up the whole 'can hakai destroy stronger beings' thing for years.

If Vegeta tries to hakai Granolah and it doesn't work, it will be interesting, but if it does and Granolah simply tanks, I guess it will still be acceptable.

Well, in the Manga, Hakai has always been shown to not be a total erasure until this chapter..

Objects/characters being “Hakai’d” had always turned to sand before.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I mean wasn't it always the case, since day 1 more or less, that hakai was erasure? The anime did a good job explaining it and the Manga to some degree I guess.

And Beerus' explanation just validates all previous knowledge.

I kinda got dissapointed when the hyped technique Beerus would show to Vegeta ended up being hakai, but I digress.

As for hakai's aftereffects... Well, I appreciate how they went for a more scientific approach to it. Energy does indeed release if matter is annihilated although to do that irl, you need anti-matter.

I don't think anything has changed. But it will be interesting to see how it works in bloodlusted battles. Goku apparently messed up against an immortal (2 negative factors) and Toppo in the anime at least, could utilize Hakai but not erase Vegeta, which brought up the whole 'can hakai destroy stronger beings' thing for years.

If Vegeta tries to hakai Granolah and it doesn't work, it will be interesting, but if it does and Granolah simply tanks, I guess it will still be acceptable.

Well, in the Manga, Hakai has always been shown to not be a total erasure until this chapter..

Objects/characters being “Hakai’d” had always turned to sand before.

Which is kinda weird tbh. I don't know how to feel about it.

I would get why Beerus wouldn't hakai anything completely, but then again, if that's his trademark as a GoD why even bother not showing the true capabilities of such power.

But of course the problem lies elsewhere. If it's Erasure, why can't an immortal be erased? The body is still matter. If it's erasure, total and instant, can a regular ki user learning the technique defeat just anyone?

If GoDs have such an astounding ability why even bother mentioning entities that may rival them in power. It's useless if all that's needed is one word and poof. The story obviously made up for this by giving the explanation (indirectly) that you need to be of a specific godly strength level to use hakai.

In any case, even erasing part of something would still be lethal. If Vegeta erases a rock, he can erase a hole inside his enemy as well. I wonder how they will handle that.

Will Granolah or any future enemy be able to evade hakai? Is hakai basically similar to Moro's energy absorption in practice? We shall see.

[Thani]

I mean wasn't it always the case, since day 1 more or less, that hakai was erasure? The anime did a good job explaining it and the Manga to some degree I guess.

And Beerus' explanation just validates all previous knowledge.

I kinda got dissapointed when the hyped technique Beerus would show to Vegeta ended up being hakai, but I digress.

As for hakai's aftereffects... Well, I appreciate how they went for a more scientific approach to it. Energy does indeed release if matter is annihilated although to do that irl, you need anti-matter.

I don't think anything has changed. But it will be interesting to see how it works in bloodlusted battles. Goku apparently messed up against an immortal (2 negative factors) and Toppo in the anime at least, could utilize Hakai but not erase Vegeta, which brought up the whole 'can hakai destroy stronger beings' thing for years.

If Vegeta tries to hakai Granolah and it doesn't work, it will be interesting, but if it does and Granolah simply tanks, I guess it will still be acceptable.

Well, in the Manga, Hakai has always been shown to not be a total erasure until this chapter..

Objects/characters being “Hakai’d” had always turned to sand before.

Which is kinda weird tbh. I don't know how to feel about it.

I would get why Beerus wouldn't hakai anything completely, but then again, if that's his trademark as a GoD why even bother not showing the true capabilities of such power.

But of course the problem lies elsewhere. If it's Erasure, why can't an immortal be erased? The body is still matter. If it's erasure, total and instant, can a regular ki user learning the technique defeat just anyone?

If GoDs have such an astounding ability why even bother mentioning entities that may rival them in power. It's useless if all that's needed is one word and poof. The story obviously made up for this by giving the explanation (indirectly) that you need to be of a specific godly strength level to use hakai.

In any case, even erasing part of something would still be lethal. If Vegeta erases a rock, he can erase a hole inside his enemy as well. I wonder how they will handle that.

Will Granolah or any future enemy be able to evade hakai? Is hakai basically similar to Moro's energy absorption in practice? We shall see.

At least on the Zamasu side of things, it's been theorized that the immortal simply recovers too fast for the Hakai to, well, destroy them. In the manga, there's a point where Zamasu's erasure simply halts for quite some panels. In fact, it stays halted like that for the whole time it takes for Zamasu to start feeling pain, steel his resolve, open a porta, pull Mai and put her on front of Goku.

It could be read as his immortality stopping the hakai from erasing him, but he was still feeling the pain from the experience, with neither side overpowhering the other. Supposedly it would be the same even if Beerus tried it, hence his talk of "no, I can't kill immortals".

Zeno's erasure is simply on another level from Hakai altogether, probably because he outranks Zalama, so Super Shenron can't make someone immune to Zeno outright.

[GodVegetto91]

I mean wasn't it always the case, since day 1 more or less, that hakai was erasure? The anime did a good job explaining it and the Manga to some degree I guess.

And Beerus' explanation just validates all previous knowledge.

I kinda got dissapointed when the hyped technique Beerus would show to Vegeta ended up being hakai, but I digress.

As for hakai's aftereffects... Well, I appreciate how they went for a more scientific approach to it. Energy does indeed release if matter is annihilated although to do that irl, you need anti-matter.

I don't think anything has changed. But it will be interesting to see how it works in bloodlusted battles. Goku apparently messed up against an immortal (2 negative factors) and Toppo in the anime at least, could utilize Hakai but not erase Vegeta, which brought up the whole 'can hakai destroy stronger beings' thing for years.

If Vegeta tries to hakai Granolah and it doesn't work, it will be interesting, but if it does and Granolah simply tanks, I guess it will still be acceptable.

Well, in the Manga, Hakai has always been shown to not be a total erasure until this chapter..

Objects/characters being “Hakai’d” had always turned to sand before.

Which is kinda weird tbh. I don't know how to feel about it.

I would get why Beerus wouldn't hakai anything completely, but then again, if that's his trademark as a GoD why even bother not showing the true capabilities of such power.

But of course the problem lies elsewhere. If it's Erasure, why can't an immortal be erased? The body is still matter. If it's erasure, total and instant, can a regular ki user learning the technique defeat just anyone?

If GoDs have such an astounding ability why even bother mentioning entities that may rival them in power. It's useless if all that's needed is one word and poof. The story obviously made up for this by giving the explanation (indirectly) that you need to be of a specific godly strength level to use hakai.

In any case, even erasing part of something would still be lethal. If Vegeta erases a rock, he can erase a hole inside his enemy as well. I wonder how they will handle that.

Will Granolah or any future enemy be able to evade hakai? Is hakai basically similar to Moro's energy absorption in practice? We shall see.

I do like the retcon actually.. I genuinely do. Because now at least it’s clear and we finally have an answer, also, it gives Vegeta a legit ability that Goku legit hasn’t been able to pull off before, as the “Hakai” that he used against Merged Zamasu was only going to turn him into sand. (And he would obviously regenerate from that as an Immortal), now Vegeta has the TRUE power of Hakai at his disposal.

I also like it because I think it makes sense.

Leaving nothing = >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leaving sand afterall.

As for why immortals can’t be erased, well, you may not like to hear this but here it comes again, The plot dictates, that, as an immortal, they cannot die, no matter what.

Yet, somehow, Zen-Oh sama can!

Ofcourse they’re going to give him that ability as the God of All.

This ofcourse means that the Hakai is not totally “absolute”.

But the Omni-King’s erasure totally is!

It’s true magic!

[GodVegetto91]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

[Grand Marshal 1]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

It most certainly would explain why Merged Zamasu wasn't fully erased, but to top that off, Goku messed up as well.

So we are left wondering, who was at fault? Was the immortal, as Thani said, recovering fast enough to counter the hakai, or did Goku simply yell hakai but never did the hakai in the first place, indicating thus, that he did not use the hakai after all, rather its principles (like the power stressed perfected blue being based on the principles of Kaio Ken).

It doesn't matter in the end. There is still much that needs to be explained on hakai tbh. I'm glad we got confirmation on these few things, but many questions arise too.

I imagine that the reason hakai is useless against immortals is the simple fact that energy is something. If hakai released 0 energy, it would truly be ultimate erasure, but it's not. You can argue it converts all matter 'destroyed' into energy and spreading it. Maybe an immortal can recover from that, or maybe the GoDs need anothrr technique in energy nullification to counter this.

Beerus in the anime showed such abilities and I would prefer if Vegeta learned how to nullify energy. Imagine eliminating your opponent's ki attacks.

[GodVegetto91]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

It most certainly would explain why Merged Zamasu wasn't fully erased, but to top that off, Goku messed up as well.

So we are left wondering, who was at fault? Was the immortal, as Thani said, recovering fast enough to counter the hakai, or did Goku simply yell hakai but never did the hakai in the first place, indicating thus, that he did not use the hakai after all, rather its principles (like the power stressed perfected blue being based on the principles of Kaio Ken).

It doesn't matter in the end. There is still much that needs to be explained on hakai tbh. I'm glad we got confirmation on these few things, but many questions arise too.

I imagine that the reason hakai is useless against immortals is the simple fact that energy is something. If hakai released 0 energy, it would truly be ultimate erasure, but it's not. You can argue it converts all matter 'destroyed' into energy and spreading it. Maybe an immortal can recover from that, or maybe the GoDs need anothrr technique in energy nullification to counter this.

Beerus in the anime showed such abilities and I would prefer if Vegeta learned how to nullify energy. Imagine eliminating your opponent's ki attacks.

Well, Goku clearly didn’t use the true Hakai on Merged Zamasu, as this one didn’t have an explosion and was slowly turning him into sand.

In real life, ofcourse, energy can NEVER be destroyed, only transformed - Per the first law of thermodynamics. Hence why we are all eternal minds outside space and time and merely incarnate here to evolve and learn. Hence proving the abrahamic religions wrong because they claim that we were supposively “created” by this external monster deity they call “God”. But energy CANNOT be created. Only transformed. This means that the Big Bang (nearly 14 billion years ago) was a conversion. Mental, dimensionless, unextended, immaterial sinusoids, outside space and time, got converted (transformed) into material, extended, dimensional sinusoids (via “phase combinations”).

In real life, “matter” is simply “collective thoughts”. Thoughts are sinusoids afterall. They come in both dimensional and dimensionless versions. When a mind thinks alone, it produces private thoughts, when many minds think together, they produce collective thoughts (matter). Public thoughts. This universe is a collective dream world. Energy cannot be created (only transformed), Energy cannot be destroyed either, this guarantees that you are an eternal mind. When you die, you enter into a dream like state where you experience your own internal sinusoids, (unconscious thoughts). There’s no such thing as an objective place “out there” called Heaven or Hell.

In Dragon Ball, however, the rules are different. It has an afterlife that is “fixed”, “static”, “external”, and “objective”. And is the same for everyone. In real life, it is internal, it changes based on your thoughts (like a dream.) It’s a private, solipsistic, state, for you alone.

In Dragon Ball, characters can be “erased from existence”.

In real life, energy can never be erased. Only tranformed.

Therein lies the difference. I have read nearly 200 books on this subject, written by the finest minds on Planet Earth, so I know what I’m talking about.

Dragon Ball, ofcourse, is a fictional show. So you cannot always apply real world logic to it.

[GodVegetto91]

It really seems that Vegeta has God (“GoD”) powers in Base form now..

There’s really no other way you can make of this scene.

[ZombieVito]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

It most certainly would explain why Merged Zamasu wasn't fully erased, but to top that off, Goku messed up as well.

So we are left wondering, who was at fault? Was the immortal, as Thani said, recovering fast enough to counter the hakai, or did Goku simply yell hakai but never did the hakai in the first place, indicating thus, that he did not use the hakai after all, rather its principles (like the power stressed perfected blue being based on the principles of Kaio Ken).

It doesn't matter in the end. There is still much that needs to be explained on hakai tbh. I'm glad we got confirmation on these few things, but many questions arise too.

I imagine that the reason hakai is useless against immortals is the simple fact that energy is something. If hakai released 0 energy, it would truly be ultimate erasure, but it's not. You can argue it converts all matter 'destroyed' into energy and spreading it. Maybe an immortal can recover from that, or maybe the GoDs need anothrr technique in energy nullification to counter this.

Beerus in the anime showed such abilities and I would prefer if Vegeta learned how to nullify energy. Imagine eliminating your opponent's ki attacks.

I think you are overcomplicating this unnecessarily. Zamasu wasn't erased simply because neither Goku or Beerus are above Zalama, who was the one that granted Immortality to Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

The way Beerus explains Destruction implies he can weaponize energy released from matter being turned into nothing to an extent, which isn’t properly his own power. That probably may help to solve some weird assessments about Beerus’ strength in comparison to other antagonists. The more refined his technique is, the less powerful he needs to be to be seen as a formidable entity. I believe that can be applied to Ultra Instinct as well.

[Thani]

It really seems that Vegeta has God (“GoD”) powers in Base form now..

There’s really no other way you can make of this scene.

I just love how proud Vegeta is of himself, he even went running to show it to Goku, Whis and the Oracle Fish.

[GodVegetto91]

The way Beerus explains Destruction implies he can weaponize energy released from matter being turned into nothing to an extent, which isn’t properly his own power. That probably may help to solve some weird assessments about Beerus’ strength in comparison to other antagonists. The more refined his technique is, the less powerful he needs to be to be seen as a formidable entity. I believe that can be applied to Ultra Instinct as well.

Hmmmmmm. I didn’t quite get that implication/interpretation from Beerus’ explanation.. Can you explain to me what exactly he said that points towards him being able to use the energy released from an erased object for battle? (To make himself stronger.)

[GodVegetto91]

It really seems that Vegeta has God (“GoD”) powers in Base form now..

There’s really no other way you can make of this scene.

I just love how proud Vegeta is of himself, he even went running to show it to Goku, Whis and the Oracle Fish.

It is funny and cute at the same time indeed! Like a little kid who managed to skee or ride a bicycle for the first time

[Thani]

The way Beerus explains Destruction implies he can weaponize energy released from matter being turned into nothing to an extent, which isn’t properly his own power. That probably may help to solve some weird assessments about Beerus’ strength in comparison to other antagonists. The more refined his technique is, the less powerful he needs to be to be seen as a formidable entity. I believe that can be applied to Ultra Instinct as well.

Hmmmmmm. I didn’t quite get that implication/interpretation from Beerus’ explanation.. Can you explain to me what exactly he said that points towards him being able to use the energy released from an erased object for battle? (To make himself stronger.)

I think it's not use it per se, but for example, he can throw a rock at someone, hakai it, and the released energy would create a devastating blow. Or he could hakai a piece of clothing, like he did with Vegeta. Basically, what I got is that, as he said, "the explosion is the highlight of hakai", so he doesn't necessarily need to hakai someone to injure them, he can use the resulting explosion instead.

Also, something really interesting, can he use it with ki as well? He nullified his and Goku's blast in the BoG anime retelling, maybe it was hakai as well. Now picture someone throwing a kamehameha or big bang attack at him, but he hakais the blast on the person's face, releasing all that energy back at them.

[ankokudaishogun]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

Disproved by Beerus: he Destroyed only half of a planet


Hakai is useless against immortals because their body gets rebuilt after being destroyed.
Hakai destroys but doesn't stop reconstruction

[GodVegetto91]

Also, I think the “Erasure” part applies to the entire object that’s being targeted. Meaning, you cannot erase a part of it..

(Just my theory ofcourse) xD

Disproved by Beerus: he Destroyed only half of a planet


Hakai is useless against immortals because their body gets rebuilt after being destroyed.
Hakai destroys but doesn't stop reconstruction

Who said he erased that planet in the Anime???! It could have just been a regular destruction explosion where it leaves many rocks.

Anyways, that was the Anime, not the Manga. And the Manga is clearly very different from the Anime.

In the Manga he never did that.