Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 15; Still Unreleased

[MasenkoHA]

Though, why they didn't use a replacement score for OG DB when they got around to dubbing it inhouse, is anyone's guess.

Keeping the original Japanese music was part of their public relations for that dub. When they announced the dub of the original Dragon Ball they made sure to mention they were keeping the original Japanese music and that some of the voices were selected by the fans (Goku, Pilaf, Turtle, and Shuu specifically)*

It seemed they were aware Dragon Ball was going to lack the mainstream appeal of Z so rather than try to make it appeal to the widest possible audience they decided to treat it as “an anime fans” series with the Japanese music and English covers of the op and ed. At that point Z was the only anime on Toonami that didn’t use the original music afaik (until GT of course)


Granted, outside the music Dragon Ball’s dub wasn’t much more accurate than Z especially when Sean Michael Teague took over as the main writer but what can you do?



*I have my doubts that the fan polls were legitimate but they still used them to generate good PR

[Robo4900]

Using the original Japanese score is likely cheaper than producing their own original score.

It isn't.

The Japanese score has been said a few times to have been very expensive, meanwhile the Westwood Z dub's score was entirely stock tracks Ocean could use for free.

And sure they were now writing their own scripts for GT (and Dragon Ball by Red Ribbon) but they also cut cost by switching from their Vancouver studio to their budget friendly studio in Calgary.

This was a decision made by Ken Morrison as part of a general effort to move out of Vancouver because of changing union rules. For a substantial portion of the dub's pre-production, it was assumed they would be working in Vancouver, and they even did some casting.

Of course we don’t have the numbers but I’d be very surprised if at least their dub of GT didn’t cost less than Funimation’s.

Unlikely. Funimation paid their actors pretty much nothing and they used a cheap replacement score. Ocean used professional actors with a union (albeit not a very good union) and the original Japanese score.

And really what does that say about Funimation if Ocean/Blue Water could produce a better quality dub for less money?

Nothing we don't already know!

Keeping the original Japanese music was part of their public relations for that dub. When they announced the dub of the original Dragon Ball they made sure to mention they were keeping the original Japanese music and that some of the voices were selected by the fans (Goku, Pilaf, Turtle, and Shuu specifically)

It seemed they were aware Dragon Ball was going to lack the mainstream appeal of Z so rather than try to make it appeal to the widest possible audience they decided to treat it as “an anime fans” series with the Japanese music and English covers of the op and ed. At that point Z was the only anime on Toonami that didn’t use the original music afaik (until GT of course)

Nah. I think they kept the score because they wanted to rush OG DB out just to get it done. I don't think Funi really had any faith in it, they just wanted it over with. Gen Fukunaga has stated that from the beginning he wanted Z. I've always inferred that he never cared about OG DB, given what he's said in regards to this, and Funi's generally very poor handling of the series.

[MasenkoHA]

.

The Japanese score has been said a few times to have been very expensive, meanwhile the Westwood Z dub's score was entirely stock tracks Ocean could use for free.

I’m sure Funimation has said the Japanese score was very expensive. But that excuse doesn’t hold any water. There’s no way in hell something as cheaply done as their Sleeping Princess dub would have kept the music if they could have saved cost by leaving it out and just throw in the Peter Berring score they had on hand.

Also considering how cheaply done remastering for the Orange Bricks were I’d doubt they’d pay money to license the “expensive”’Japanese music just to put it back in the dub.

For Kami sake they couldn’t have even be bothered to spend enough money to not make their whole partial redub effort half assed and pointless


The lack of Japanese music was always “We can make money with own original score also our focus groups show American kids like wall to wall music”


As far as the Westwood dub not using it I just assume the Kikuchi score wasn’t available to them(weren’t they working with Funimation’s masters?) and since it was so rushed it was either pay Funimation for their score or just throw in music from their own stock library.

Nah. I think they kept the score because they wanted to rush OG DB out just to get it done. I don't think Funi really had any faith in it, they just wanted it over with. Gen Fukunaga has stated that from the beginning he wanted Z. I've always inferred that he never cared about OG DB, given what he's said in regards to this, and Funi's generally very poor handling of the series.

Sure they probably didn’t have much faith in it but they also made a point to mention they were keeping the Japanese score in their announcement of the dub on their website

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2001/04/04/f ... ginal-bgm/

That says to me they were using it as a selling point rather than just leaving it in because they didn’t care. They also went through the trouble of recreating the instrumentals of the opening and ending songs and producing English covers even when it would have been considerably easier and cheaper to use the old 95 dubbed opening and ending themes (which is what they ended up originally doing for Sleeping Princess anyways) or just using Makafushigi Adventure and Romantic Ageru untranslated . That suggest some level of effort on their end. (Of course that ended up being the extent of effort Funimation exercised with their in house dub of the original Dragon Ball, Funimation clearly didn’t bother putting in the effort of staying closer to the original script )

There’s also the fact that their dubs of Blue Gender and Yuyu Hakusho came out around the same time and they kept the Japanese music and stuck closer to the original versions. That was just the general direction Funimation was going in anyways Z and GT ended up being the exceptions not the rule. And OG Dragon Ball’s dub ended up being some awkward half measure in the middle of keeping the Japanese music with English versions of the OP and ED like all their other non Z/GT dubs but having most of the same writing problems as Z (added punch up humor, entire conversations being rewritten, etc etc)

[NitroEX]

Funimation's reasons for the Kikuchi tracks being absent from Z seem to flip flop depending on who's being asked. If I recall correctly, Sabat's excuse in at least one of his interviews was that the music tracks had degraded and were of such poor sound quality that they couldn't be used, which I personally think is BS in order to save face (the Pioneer produced dubs didn't have this issue).

I think there's some truth to the excuse about music fees being too expensive, it seems plausible given how cheap the company was, and there's at least some evidence of omitting vocal Japanese songs on the remastered English dub tracks, but I think the licensing issue only applies to those specific songs, not to the whole score. The Blue Water dub chose to replace those certain songs, presumably for similar reasons (or they may have just not existed on the materials that AB provided them, who knows).

What I'm more certain about is that it was most likely just down to a creative choice on Funi's part to Americanize the product and copy what was contemporary with their target audience (I'm reminded of a Dale Kelly comment about Batman Beyond's music kicking their ass and the direction of DBZ's music changing soon after), and that just so happened to also come with the added benefit of collecting music royalties (which Funi picked up from working with Saban - though they weren't in nearly the same position to capitalize on it like Saban, since the Faulconer score wasn't being used for foreign language dubs like Saban's music was, such as the Hindi DBZ dub).

Regarding Kikuchi for the Westwood dub, it just wouldn't have been as practical as using their library tracks. Funi wouldn't have provided them with that option so they'd have to use AB's materials specifically for it, which was counterintuitive at the time as they were already getting Funi's footage and sound effect tracks. It would also have been a much bigger shift in the style of music considering they were continuing on from both the Wasserman and Faulconer scored versions of the show. The Funi scripts also conflicted with the pace and serious tone of the Kikuchi music. It just wasn't going to happen under those rushed circumstances, only under a brand new production that was specifically planned from the start to be faithful to the original (like the Pioneer or Blue Water dubs).

In spite of the faithful direction of the Blue Water dubs, it's curious that they then went with a replacement score for Kai, maybe that was in response to Z doing well previously with replacement music and not wanting to reinvent the wheel since Kai was largely the same product. But in the end, it's one of the only things that worked out well for them considering the plagiarism and the headache both Toei and Funi had to deal with to fix it. At least the Ocean dub had preproduction time to plan a musical direction and have custom tracks produced specifically for the series. Depending on how it sounds it may have added value to that version since the official now haphazardly uses Kikuchi with some questionable music placement, and I doubt anyone's interested in another dubbed version with that same music when the Funi dub is already out there.

[MasenkoHA]

Funimation's reasons for the Kikuchi tracks being absent from Z seem to flip flop depending on who's being asked. If I recall correctly, Sabat's excuse in at least one of his interviews was that the music tracks had degraded and were of such poor sound quality that they couldn't be used, which I personally think is BS in order to save face (the Pioneer produced dubs didn't have this issue).

It is bs. Z has degraded music quality but the older Dragon Ball didn’t? Pioneer (who would be working with whatever Funimation originally had as they held the license) didn’t have an issue? This issue was magically fixed with the shitty Orange Brick released?

and there's at least some evidence of omitting vocal Japanese songs on the remastered English dub tracks, but I think the licensing issue only applies to those specific songs, not to the whole score.

I have my doubts about this because in the original Dragon Ball dub some songs are missing but then the exact same song will play other places. Dragon Ball Densetsu plays when Bulma is telling Grandpa Gohan about Goku’s adventures and at the end of Mystical Adventure but is removed in all other instances. Mesaze Tenkaichi is removed when Goku fights Jackie Chan and then Kuririn but the instrumental remains in episode 19 and the vocal song plays in the preliminary montage in episode 86. It stands to reason they wouldn’t be able to play those songs at all if they couldn’t afford the rights (or be able to release the Japanese with subs with all these songs intact)

Also the chorus of doom from Sleeping Princess couldn’t possibly have a super special expensive music license and yet its conspicuously missing when Goku goes to the demon world and when Piccolo and Kami die in Z but remains intact when Freeza skewers Krillin and when Vegeta dies.

It seems whoever at Toei was in charge of removing the vocals to provide the M&E track got overzealous and ended up removing most of the vocal songs in Dragon Ball and all the vocal songs in Z. That’s probably why purely instrumental songs like Battle Point Unlimited didn’t have this issue.

What I'm more certain about is that it was most likely just down to a creative choice on Funi's part to Americanize the product and copy what was contemporary with their target audience (I'm reminded of a Dale Kelly comment about Batman Beyond's music kicking their ass and the direction of DBZ's music changing soon after

I remember that comment. It’s interesting though because Batman Beyond would have only been around for a month when season 3 started production. If Batman Beyond was kicking their ass in ratings its because season 1 and 2 have been playing for like the 5th fucking time on Toonami by the time Batman Beyond premiered on Kidswb

), and that just so happened to also come with the added benefit of collecting music royalties (which Funi picked up from working with Saban - though they weren't in nearly the same position to capitalize on it like Saban, since the Faulconer score wasn't being used for foreign language dubs like Saban's music was, such as the Hindi DBZ dub).

Even though Saban made the music for Funimation Funimation did own the rights (which is how they were able to continue to use Rock the Dragon all the way until Goku’s Alive?) so they would have profit off the Hindu dub using the Saban score.

In spite of the faithful direction of the Blue Water dubs, it's curious that they then went with a replacement score for Kai, maybe that was in response to Z doing well previously with replacement music and not wanting to reinvent the wheel since Kai was largely the same product. But in the end, it's one of the only things that worked out well for them considering the plagiarism and the headache both Toei and Funi had to deal with to fix it. At least the Ocean dub had preproduction time to plan a musical direction and have custom tracks produced specifically for the series. Depending on how it sounds it may have added value to that version since the official now haphazardly uses Kikuchi with some questionable music placement, and I doubt anyone's interested in another dubbed version with that same music when the Funi dub is already out there.

You know I’m 100 percent guessing here but I do have to wonder if someone at Ocean noticed how suspiciously similar Kai’s bgm soundtrack sounded (I mean shoot Yamamoto was stealing from recent Blockbuster hits like Avatar and Terminator Salvation) and said “hell no”


Or maybe they just replaced the music to make sure Kai was Cancon.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

In spite of the faithful direction of the Blue Water dubs, it's curious that they then went with a replacement score for Kai, maybe that was in response to Z doing well previously with replacement music and not wanting to reinvent the wheel since Kai was largely the same product. But in the end, it's one of the only things that worked out well for them considering the plagiarism and the headache both Toei and Funi had to deal with to fix it. At least the Ocean dub had preproduction time to plan a musical direction and have custom tracks produced specifically for the series. Depending on how it sounds it may have added value to that version since the official now haphazardly uses Kikuchi with some questionable music placement, and I doubt anyone's interested in another dubbed version with that same music when the Funi dub is already out there.

That's just it. The reality is that Kai no longer has a native score, even in Japan, and the Kikuchi replacement score was a very half-assed rush-job that Toei hastily implemented in order to try to cover themselves legally. Moreover, with the quick pace of Kai and the very different edits in contrast to how the content was originally presented in Z, Kikuchi's score was never intended to be paired with it. His musical style is meant to go with the slower pace of Z.

So in this particular instance, Ocean's Kai having a replacement score (presumably with a planned musical direction, as you say) would likely be extremely beneficial to the overall product.

[NitroEX]

I remember that comment. It’s interesting though because Batman Beyond would have only been around for a month when season 3 started production. If Batman Beyond was kicking their ass in ratings its because season 1 and 2 have been playing for like the 5th fucking time on Toonami by the time Batman Beyond premiered on Kidswb

Well, I interpreted that to mean Batman's overall music style and production values were kicking their ass, which would have influenced them to create something that sounded more exciting as opposed to the slower 80s/horror/synth vibe that the Freeza sagas so commonly used as a backdrop. The heavier industrial rock influence started to creep in more towards the Trunks saga if memory serves which felt closer in style to what Batman had.

Even though Saban made the music for Funimation Funimation did own the rights (which is how they were able to continue to use Rock the Dragon all the way until Goku’s Alive?) so they would have profit off the Hindu dub using the Saban score.

I'm not sure about that, I think offering to do the music in-house with one of their own contracted composers and setting up the deal with the Hindi dub is more characteristic of Saban wanting to make some extra money from the arrangement rather than Funi's doing. After all, they were used to sublicensing other Saban shows oversees whereas Funi weren't. Funi were still small at that time and didn't have the same reach globally. The Rock the Dragon intro might've factored into royalties going to Saban as well since I believe that song was also translated for the Hindi dub. Maybe it was a motivator for Funi to produce their own intro song quickly for season 3, to make sure Saban was cut off from future royalties.

[MasenkoHA]

Well, I interpreted that to mean Batman's overall music style and production values were kicking their ass, which would have influenced them to create something that sounded more exciting as opposed to the slower 80s/horror/synth vibe that the Freeza sagas so commonly used as a backdrop. The heavier industrial rock influence started to creep in more towards the Trunks saga if memory serves which felt closer in style to what Batman had.

Didn’t Kelly specify Batman Beyond? Batman TAS had a way more 1940s noir style soundtrack making it way more stylistic and unique than anything Funimation bothered with

I'm not sure about that, I think offering to do the music in-house with one of their own contracted composers and setting up the deal with the Hindi dub is more characteristic of Saban wanting to make some extra money from the arrangement rather than Funi's doing. After all, they were used to sublicensing other Saban shows oversees whereas Funi weren't. Funi were still small at that time and didn't have the same reach globally. The Rock the Dragon intro might've factored into royalties going to Saban as well since I believe that song was also translated for the Hindi dub. Maybe it was a motivator for Funi to produce their own intro song quickly for season 3, to make sure Saban was cut off from future royalties.

I did some digging to find that infamous “with our own score we can charge royalties” interview for full context

Steve: Was the replacement of the soundtrack in the first two seasons a Saban decision?

Gen: The replacing of the music, was a FUNimation desicsion. With our own soundtrack, we could charge royalties for every second it's heard.

Steve: But the music itself? Who's responsible?

Gen: Oh, that was Saban. After we opted to go with our own music, we left the decision of how it was done to them.

They owned the rights to the Saban music. That is why they were still able to release the Rock the Dragon sets without any hurdles from Saban.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081120203 ... rview.html


The actual interview is extremely interesting it mostly talks about dealing with Saban’s ridiculous censorship but it also talks about the move to Cartoon Network and the cast and music switch.

As it turns out they just plain did not like Ron Wasserman’s music and thought Faulconer Productions music was better.

[NitroEX]

Didn’t Kelly specify Batman Beyond? Batman TAS had a way more 1940s noir style soundtrack making it way more stylistic and unique than anything Funimation bothered with

Yes. I'm referring to Batman Beyond, I already mentioned it by name and didn't feel like typing it out every time after that. I thought it was obvious I wasn't referring to TAS since the context was already there. Beyond had the industrial rock soundtrack which Kelly was praising at the time.

I did some digging to find that infamous “with our own score we can charge royalties” interview for full context

That's interesting. Though some of what he says I would take with a grain of salt as it sounds like biased PR spin. And as we know, Funi were leaving Saban behind them, so there was no longer any obligation to say nice things about Saban or their composer, it's very one sided.

As it turns out they just plain did not like Ron Wasserman’s music and thought Faulconer Productions music was better.

Yeah, but that's exactly what they would say after parting ways with Saban and hiring a new composer. They would naturally want to make their new composer sound like a better option in interviews because there was no going back, but in hindsight it was laughable considering Wasserman's resume compared to Faulconer who wasn't yet established, he was simply a cheap and local option (who ended up suing them over their deal no less).

That being said, the lack of creative control they mention regarding the Saban music sounds like more of a legitimate reason for them to be annoyed and switch to an in-house composer, in fact that would also apply to the Westwood production too.

They owned the rights to the Saban music. That is why they were still able to release the Rock the Dragon sets without any hurdles from Saban.

By that point, I would imagine all past agreements had long expired or the rights had reverted to Funimation naturally just like with Pioneer/Geneon but I could be wrong about that. Saban was a very different company by that point and been bought by Disney, then sold back etc so who knows. I doubt they would have still been a factor to consider when releasing the RTD.

[MasenkoHA]

. Though some of what he says I would take with a grain of salt as it sounds like biased PR spin. And as we know, Funi were leaving Saban behind them, so there was no longer any obligation to say nice things about Saban or their composer, it's very one sided.

Sure when it comes to things like “we think the new cast is very talented” that’s some PR nonsense I’m sure but when it comes to not agreeing with Saban’s over the top censorship demands or preferring to work with the more lax Cartoon Network there’s no reason to believe he isn’t being one hundred percent honest.

Yeah, but that's exactly what they would say after parting ways with Saban and hiring a new composer. They would naturally want to make their new composer sound like a better option in interviews because there was no going back, but in hindsight it was laughable considering Wasserman's resume compared to Faulconer who wasn't yet established, he was simply a cheap and local option (who ended up suing them over their deal no less).

There’s literally no reason to say they didn’t like the Wasserman score. Considering Funimation has a horrid tendency of absolving themselves of any wrong doing by acting like a bunch of things are out of their control it would be in Fukunaga’s best interest to act like they lost access to the old music but they’re very satisfied with the new score.

Factor in they gave complete control over how the music for season 1 and 2 would sound to Saban and then had control over how the Faulconer music would sound there’s no reason not to think they didn’t like Saban’s music and preferred their own music they had a say in.

As far as Wasserman having a more impressive resume than Faulconer you’re right but considering another interview circa season 2 had Fukunaga saying they weren’t satisfied with Scott Mcneil as Piccolo I think it’s safer to say the man just has questionable taste.

By that point, I would imagine all past agreements had long expired or the rights had reverted to Funimation naturally just like with Pioneer/Geneon but I could be wrong about that. Saban was a very different company by that point and been bought by Disney, then sold back etc so who knows. I doubt they would have still been a factor to consider when releasing the RTD.

No. Fukunaga was asked if Saban made the decision to replace the music for season 1 and 2 and he explained Funimation made that decision because they could charge royalties for their own score and they simply left the music to Saban to produce for them. Ergo Funimation always owned the Saban music outright and the decision to ditch that music for season 3 was a combination of not liking the music and not liking that they had to depend on Saban to send the music from California and they were always sending it in late. It was never a matter of Saban owning the music.

[kei17]

Moreover, with the quick pace of Kai and the very different edits in contrast to how the content was originally presented in Z, Kikuchi's score was never intended to be paired with it. His musical style is meant to go with the slower pace of Z.

I never understand this "the Kikuchi score doesn't go with faster-paced Kai" logic that a lot of people use for some reason. Most of the tracks of his Z score weren't even composed for the TV series in the first place and they were originally for pretty fast-paced movies. Also, the Yamamoto score didn't have many up-tempo tracks for battles and it was slower in general.

[OmegaRockman]

Moreover, with the quick pace of Kai and the very different edits in contrast to how the content was originally presented in Z, Kikuchi's score was never intended to be paired with it. His musical style is meant to go with the slower pace of Z.

I never understand this "the Kikuchi score doesn't go with faster-paced Kai" logic that a lot of people use for some reason. Most of the tracks of his Z score weren't even composed for the TV series in the first place and they were originally for pretty fast-paced movies. Also, the Yamamoto score didn't have many up-tempo tracks for battles and it was slower in general.

Thank you! The real problem with the Kikuchi Kai score was the rushed timeframe they had to implement it and the limited selection of tracks, and even then I still think the Kikuchi score works better than the Yamamoto score did for the most part (though I admit I do think Yamamoto fits the show fine despite my negative feelings on his plagiarism). I just wish they went with the Kikuchi score from the getgo so it could have been more well utilizes. Heck, they could've even had Yamamoto just do covers of the original tracks to "modernize" them if they wanted to. That way he could "borrow" as much as he wanted in an officially sanctioned way and they would've avoided the PR nightmare. Alas, hindsight and all that.

[NitroEX]

Sure when it comes to things like “we think the new cast is very talented” that’s some PR nonsense I’m sure but when it comes to not agreeing with Saban’s over the top censorship demands or preferring to work with the more lax Cartoon Network there’s no reason to believe he isn’t being one hundred percent honest.

I wasn't disagreeing with any of the latter but I think it's still fair to be sceptical of some of the other things he mentions.

There’s literally no reason to say they didn’t like the Wasserman score. Considering Funimation has a horrid tendency of absolving themselves of any wrong doing by acting like a bunch of things are out of their control it would be in Fukunaga’s best interest to act like they lost access to the old music but they’re very satisfied with the new score.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Their subjective music taste has no bearing on what they would say publicly at that point. The priority would be warming fans to the new composer and new version of the show, not wanting fans to miss the old.

Factor in they gave complete control over how the music for season 1 and 2 would sound to Saban and then had control over how the Faulconer music would sound there’s no reason not to think they didn’t like Saban’s music and preferred their own music they had a say in.

I took it to mean they simply didn't have the capability to make their own music for the show, so they let Saban take the lead in that area, but they soon discovered there were disadvantages to that approach such as not having any creative control of the music or when the music was delivered.

In hindsight that was kind of a good thing for fans since it gave Ron Wasserman complete artistic freedom to do what he wanted (because he's since admitted that Saban didn't care about the show). Had Funi had the control they wanted over the music those first two seasons might have turned out sounding worse, as is often the case when clueless executive dip their feet into creative areas, but I digress...

I think it’s safer to say the man just has questionable taste.

Oh, I agree, particularly when praising the acting in season 3, but again, grain of salt for cases like that.

I also think his metric of "better" in the case of music could be any number of things, even just being less dark in tone. It could also be that he just wanted music that conformed to whatever personal biases he had in place for kids television music at the time (I'm reminded of the Faulconer score having an abundance of character-specific themes). Wasserman's score for Z was a little Avant-grade in style compared to a lot of kids TV music at the time so it wouldn't surprise me if a business-oriented man didn't understand the appeal and preferred a more standard approach.

No. Fukunaga was asked if Saban made the decision to replace the music for season 1 and 2 and he explained Funimation made that decision because they could charge royalties for their own score and they simply left the music to Saban to produce for them. Ergo Funimation always owned the Saban music outright and the decision to ditch that music for season 3 was a combination of not liking the music and not liking that they had to depend on Saban to send the music from California and they were always sending it in late. It was never a matter of Saban owning the music.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. You're taking everything Gen says here as 100% truth. I personally don't believe that Funimation were the masterminds behind getting music royalties in the first two seasons. Not only were they in no position to be making the foreign exchange deal with the Hindi dub (something Saban were known for doing), but they also were not the ones being credited for the music, Shuki Levy and Haim Saban were.

It's long been known that Shuki and Haim were raking in music royalties for hundreds of Saban cartoons by claiming the composer's credit for all of them, even the ones they had no involvement with (such as DBZ) it was a big part of their business. Ron Wasserman has admitted that young composers would often agree to essentially be ghostwriters and give up their music writing credit, and more importantly, any royalties, in order to work in that industry. The music royalty thing was totally Saban's game, not Funimation's and I think it's safe to say Funimation learned from them in this area as they were still a new company with little knowledge of the industry.

You could argue that Funi were taking a cut but we don't know the details of their agreement to say for sure, and judging from the disparaging way they talk about Saban in that interview they probably weren't too happy with the arrangement for more reasons than what they'd be willing to admit publicly. There's bound to be more to the music issue than them not liking the sound of it, although the lack of creative control is a valid and believable complaint. In the case of the RTD we really don't know if they still got anything from that, but the modern version of Saban certainly wouldn't have been able to stop that release, not that they would care or even want to.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Their subjective music taste has no bearing on what they would say publicly at that point. The priority would be warming fans to the new composer and new version of the show, not wanting fans to miss the old.

I feel like you keeping missing the point here.

Yes, it’s in Fukunaga best interest to build up the Faulconer score. “We like this better” “fans seem to prefer it”

But, again, to what benefit is it for Fukunaga to straight up say they did not like Wasserman music? Why do you have a hard time believing that part isn’t true? There’s plenty of ways he could have spun it. “focus groups didn't like the music” “we were looking at fan input and the music wasn’t well liked” even “Saban wanted too much money for us to keep using that score.” (They would later have no problem lying through their teeth about not being able to afford the Kikuchi score)

If he said they personally didn’t like the music it is because they did not like the music.

I took it to mean they simply didn't have the capability to make their own music for the show, so they let Saban take the lead in that area, but they soon discovered there were disadvantages to that approach such as not having any creative control of the music or when the music was delivered.

Well yeah that was more or less it. Funimation wanted their own score to make money, they likely didn’t have the means to produce it themselves and their distributor happened to have been in the business for making kid show music leave it to them. And then it turns out they didn’t like the music and Saban kept turning the music in late.

In hindsight that was kind of a good thing for fans since it gave Ron Wasserman complete artistic freedom to do what he wanted (because he's since admitted that Saban didn't care about the show). Had Funi had the control they wanted over the music those first two seasons might have turned out sounding worse, as is often the case when clueless executive dip their feet into creative areas, but I digress...

I agree on the basis that the Wasserman score turned out to be the best of the replacement scores (best meaning my ears don’t start bleeding as soon as I hear it in this case) but that’s neither here nor there.

Oh, I agree, particularly when praising the acting in season 3, but again, grain of salt for cases like that.

Well yeah I never bought that he was completely satisfied with their green cast.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. You're taking everything Gen says here as 100% truth. I personally don't believe that Funimation were the masterminds behind getting music royalties in the first two seasons. Not only were they in no position to be making the foreign exchange deal with the Hindi dub (something Saban were known for doing), but they also were not the ones being credited for the music, Shuki Levy and Haim Saban were.

It's long been known that Shuki and Haim were raking in music royalties for hundreds of Saban cartoons by claiming the composer's credit for all of them, even the ones they had no involvement with (such as DBZ) it was a big part of their business. Ron Wasserman has admitted that young composers would often agree to essentially be ghostwriters and give up their music writing credit, and more importantly, any royalties, in order to work in that industry. The music royalty thing was totally Saban's game, not Funimation's and I think it's safe to say Funimation learned from them in this area as they were still a new company with little knowledge of the industry.

You could argue that Funi were taking a cut but we don't know the details of their agreement to say for sure, and judging from the disparaging way they talk about Saban in that interview they probably weren't too happy with the arrangement for more reasons than what they'd be willing to admit publicly. There's bound to be more to the music issue than them not liking the sound of it, although the lack of creative control is a valid and believable complaint. In the case of the RTD we really don't know if they still got anything from that, but the modern version of Saban certainly wouldn't have been able to stop that release, not that they would care or even want to.

Again, how is it in any way in Fukunaga’s best interest to lie about Funimation’s motive for changing the score by saying “We can make royalties off our score” ? It doesn’t make them come off looking particularly good. Especially when replacing the music was a lot less popular decision by online fan discourse then it is now when popular opinion has done a complete 180.

“The Japanese music is too expensive”

“Focus groups showed kids don’t like gap between music and the Japanese version had too many” (which he also said was part of it but not the only reason)

“The Japanese music is dated so we wanted something American kids would respond better to and left it to Saban”

There is zero reason for Fukunaga to lie about Funimation’s decision to replace the music from the beginning to be a “we can make hella money off an original score”


And honestly the proof is in the pudding. Why keep Rock the Dragon for the rest of the Freeza stuff if they had to keep giving the money to Saban? When that stupid “World of Dragon Ball Z” special was made in 2000 the appropriate clips had the Saban music playing. Even though they could have easily slapped the Faulconer score over it if they didn’t want to pay Saban royalties for it.

[NitroEX]

But, again, to what benefit is it for Fukunaga to straight up say they did not like Wasserman music? Why do you have a hard time believing that part isn’t true? There’s plenty of ways he could have spun it. “focus groups didn't like the music” “we were looking at fan input and the music wasn’t well liked” even “Saban wanted too much money for us to keep using that score.” (They would later have no problem lying through their teeth about not being able to afford the Kikuchi score)

If he said they personally didn’t like the music it is because they did not like the music.

I get your perspective. You think that because he was no longer partnered with Saban, that gave him free rein to be totally honest about the Saban score, and that is true, but I'm also factoring in the context of season 3 Funi - The fact that his opinions of Saban's involvement in the interview are all unflattering (essentially throwing them under the bus), the fact that they have a new in-house composer to promote. There's enough reasons here for him to be disparaging about the former music yet still remain diplomatic and speak favourably about the new music.

I've already given numerous reasons beyond his subjective music taste as to why he might legitimately prefer the new relationship, another could be that he's personally involved in Faulconer score's creation and feels more partial to it as a result, who knows. The point is I've been more than fair to the guy already, but there's no reason to switch my brain off and think he couldn't also just be bending the truth to make another company/composer that he's recently parted ways with, seem lesser, even if he previously might've liked much of the music.

Neither of us will ever get the truth from Gen, it's all speculation. I'm giving my opinion and remaining sceptical and that's all so I don't see any reason to keep arguing this point.

Again, how is it in any way in Fukunaga’s best interest to lie about Funimation’s motive for changing the score by saying “We can make royalties off our score”?

His motive for replacing the music is not the issue as that's been made pretty clear already. The specifics of the deal is really what you're getting into, which we don't and will likely never know all the facts about. But I personally don't think it's a coincidence that they came away from the Saban partnership with music royalties in mind. They learned a lot in that area and Saban's fingerprints are pretty self evident with the US music situation.

And honestly the proof is in the pudding. Why keep Rock the Dragon for the rest of the Freeza stuff if they had to keep giving the money to Saban? When that stupid “World of Dragon Ball Z” special was made in 2000 the appropriate clips had the Saban music playing. Even though they could have easily slapped the Faulconer score over it if they didn’t want to pay Saban royalties for it.

This just falls into the category of not knowing the specifics of the deal. Maybe the contracts stated that if either party ended things, certain rights would revert to Funi resulting in the Saban-free scenario you're painting, or alternatively, (and what I believe) is that they could have still received royalties for the theme song and this is what prompted Funi to replace it with something that they owned (but which took time to produce), in order to begin collecting more royalties as soon as possible. Remember that Ocean replaced Rock the Dragon during Canadian broadcasts with a song of equal length and using the same RTD footage. None of this is coincidental in my view, it's to do with royalties.

Funi were also prone to oversight in that era so it's possible they just fucked up by keeping the old theme song as long as they did, we'll never know for sure but my money is on this most likely being true given what we know already.

The Saban scored episodes were still in circulation at the time that special would have been broadcast so Saban theoretically could have still claimed royalties by that point, and it's not a guarantee that Funi had access to the original edits and audio stems for the Saban episodes in order to separate and rescore the old material. Those were probably all with Ocean and even then they had no reason to hold onto the M&E tracks after the final cuts were approved, especially considering it was put together in the mid 90s.

[MasenkoHA]

. There's enough reasons here for him to be disparaging about the former music yet still remain diplomatic and speak favourably about the new music.

I've already given numerous reasons beyond his subjective music taste as to why he might legitimately prefer the new relationship, another could be that he's personally involved in Faulconer score's creation and feels more partial to it as a result, who knows. The point is I've been more than fair to the guy already, but there's no reason to switch my brain off and think he couldn't also just be bending the truth to make another company/composer that he's recently parted ways with, seem lesser, even if he previously might've liked much of the music.

Sure, there’s plenty of reason for FUNimation to play up how much superior their own in-house score is compared to what Saban was doing, but there really isn’t any reason to say “Yeah we didn’t like the music at all” Funimation is really good at spinning potentially controversial things to make it seem like it was out of their hands. The whole “we had shitty incomprehensible translations from Toei” is another big non-music example. That excuse doesn’t actually hold up under scrutiny because you can see in plenty cases of season 3 where they very clearly did had legible scripts because plenty of times the dialog would be in the ballpark of accurate but just punched up with bad humor or reworded to sound “more hip” and then even after they had Simmons providing translations the writing didn’t change all that much.

Neither of us will ever get the truth from Gen, it's all speculation.

But the thing is you’re not even trying to distinguish between “pr bullshit” and “things Fukunaga has no reason to lie about” there’s a world of difference between “Yeah we’re very satisfied with our cast of nobodies off the street that I think are professional actors and fans like our new music so much better” and “Yeah we asked Saban to create an all new score because we wanted to make extra bank” and “So we didn’t like the composer Saban used and got a new”

And I do think you’re probably right that he doesn’t like the Faulconer music nearly as much as he pretends he does. The fact that he shitcan Faulconer in favor of Menza suggest he either didn’t think all that much of Faulconer music or they didn’t believe Faulconer productions was capable of producing the sound they wanted for GT. (Or maybe they just didn’t like working with Bruce Faulconer everything I hear about the man is he kind of sucks)

. The specifics of the deal is really what you're getting into, which we don't and will likely never know all the facts about. But I personally don't think it's a coincidence that they came away from the Saban partnership with music royalties in mind. They learned a lot in that area and Saban's fingerprints are pretty self evident with the US music situation.

We do though because he told us and has no reason to lie about it. Again its not a “we had no choice but to change the music” answer bs that Funimation usually tries to pass off its a pretty blunt “Yeah we can make royalties off an original score and asked Saban to produce one for us”

Remember that Ocean replaced Rock the Dragon during Canadian broadcasts with a song of equal length and using the same RTD footage. None of this is coincidental in my view, it's to do with royalties.

I would assume that has more to do with CanCon. They’re not exactly avoiding royalties when the Wasserman music is still playing in the background.y.

. Those were probably all with Ocean and even then they had no reason to hold onto the M&E tracks after the final cuts were approved, especially considering it was put together in the mid 90s.

Post production was handled by Funimation back then. They were having Barry go back and forth to oversee production at Ocean studios. Which, to my understanding is totally unnecessary and something most companies simply don’t do. And that extra travel expense is a big reason for the sudden cast change.

It’s possible they don’t have the M&E tracks but given how much Funimation was heavily involved with the production even back then I somehow doubt it.


But again you could be right on that.

[NitroEX]

Re the music: I've tried explaining myself multiple times and we're just going in circles at this point so I won't bother responding to that topic any longer.

I would assume that has more to do with CanCon. They’re not exactly avoiding royalties when the Wasserman music is still playing in the background.

The Canadian intro alone wouldn't be enough to make the episodes count as Cancon. Not that it mattered since it doesn't mandate that every show on a Canadian channel be Cancon, only a certain percentage of the channel's overall content. This why popular American series are still broadcast.

And the point isn't that replacing the intro song nullifies Saban's royalties, but it certainly would for that particular song at the very least. For all we know Ocean probably wanted to collect royalties by using the Anitunes theme, or at least provide their own cheaper alternative.

Post production was handled by Funimation back then. They were having Barry go back and forth to oversee production at Ocean studios.

Not entirely true.
Funimation did most likely make the initial cuts and edits to the footage (I know Barry's relative worked on censored frames) but Ocean were definitely the ones assembling the audio mix until Funi went in-house to record the Texas dub. And while the US broadcast audio was handled by Funi from then on, the audio post-production for the Canadian broadcasts was definitely handled by Ocean as evidenced by the various music changes found in the Faulconer score of the in-house dub as well as additional sound effects which weren't present in US broadcasts.

Barry Watson did travel to Canada to produce but from everything I've read that was only for voice recording sessions, not for anything video related, as Funi were the ones supplying video in the first place.

And as a side tangent... Yes, Barry's involvement was indeed totally unnecessary. Aside from apparently casting McNeil as Piccolo, everything else I've heard and read about his involvement indicates he was more of a problem than anything else. Actors often site him as being a source of stress and being overly demanding, plus incorrect pronunciations tend to follow whatever production he's been a part of (Saban/in-house Funi), yet magically fix themselves when he's no longer there (Pioneer/Westwood). If anyone should have been cut it was him, they clearly didn't need him to record the dub in Vancouver. Tangent over.

[MasenkoHA]

The Canadian intro alone wouldn't be enough to make the episodes count as Cancon.

Well, yeah, not alone but Funimation also had Canadian writers on staff and I don’t know if Ocean adding additional SFX and handing the post-production for the YTV airings counts for anything or not but that too.

Even if has zero relation to Cancon there’s no reason to believe it had anything to do with Saban for why they switched out Rock the Dragon.

Not that it mattered since it doesn't mandate that every show on a Canadian channel be Cancon, only a certain percentage of the channel's overall content. This why popular American series are still broadcast.

It’s not mandated but it certainly helps. Part of Funimation’s reason for outsourcing to Canada was to help ensure their dub would get broadcasted in Canada on top of the cheap dubbing rates.

And the point isn't that replacing the intro song nullifies Saban's royalties, but it certainly would for that particular song at the very least. For all we know Ocean probably wanted to collect royalties by using the Anitunes theme, or at least provide their own cheaper alternative.

That seems more likely it. Ocean wanted to collect royalties with their own song. Especially since Funimation had cut them out of the voice acting part

. Aside from apparently casting McNeil as Piccolo,

And even that’s negated by him being the reason the Ocean cast was let go in the first place

everything else I've heard and read about his involvement indicates he was more of a problem than anything else. Actors often site him as being a source of stress and being overly demanding, plus incorrect pronunciations tend to follow whatever production he's been a part of (Saban/in-house Funi), yet magically fix themselves when he's no longer there (Pioneer/Westwood). If anyone should have been cut it was him, they clearly didn't need him to record the dub in Vancouver. Tangent over.

Yeah, its not a coincidence that the Funimation dub magically got a lot better when he left (Kai) or that Pioneer movies that had his name nowhere near them were significantly better than anything Funimation would produce for a good decade.

[Hellspawn28]

I would rather see Ocean Studios do their own take on Super at this point.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I would rather see Ocean Studios do their own take on Super at this point.

I think most people would, but sadly TOEI has only given Super licences to companies that have either dubbed both Kai 1.0 and TFC or in Bang Zoon's case dubbed neither. Since Ocean only did Kai 1.0 they likely won't have a chance to return to Dragon Ball unless it gets released. It's a real shame, but just another reason we need to keep doing all we can to get this dub released, because once it's out there the sky is the limit for Ocean when it comes to making a comeback in this franchise.