Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

The way Beerus explains Destruction implies he can weaponize energy released from matter being turned into nothing to an extent, which isn’t properly his own power. That probably may help to solve some weird assessments about Beerus’ strength in comparison to other antagonists. The more refined his technique is, the less powerful he needs to be to be seen as a formidable entity. I believe that can be applied to Ultra Instinct as well.

Hmmmmmm. I didn’t quite get that implication/interpretation from Beerus’ explanation.. Can you explain to me what exactly he said that points towards him being able to use the energy released from an erased object for battle? (To make himself stronger.)

I think it's not use it per se, but for example, he can throw a rock at someone, hakai it, and the released energy would create a devastating blow. Or he could hakai a piece of clothing, like he did with Vegeta. Basically, what I got is that, as he said, "the explosion is the highlight of hakai", so he doesn't necessarily need to hakai someone to injure them, he can use the resulting explosion instead.

Also, something really interesting, can he use it with ki as well? He nullified his and Goku's blast in the BoG anime retelling, maybe it was hakai as well. Now picture someone throwing a kamehameha or big bang attack at him, but he hakais the blast on the person's face, releasing all that energy back at them.

I mean, that’s really style-less. No style at all lol

[Miracles]

Wow, the level of denial is amazing. Do we not understand the ramifications of Whis and Goku's comments?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Broly >>>> Jiren is a fact.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

1. Well it's not a fact and that is fact.

2. You constantly bolding parts of your messages isn't you making a point.

3. Your "never" is wrong too considering Golden Frieza was inferior to Beerus. Goku Black was also inferior to Hit. Unique abilities aside Hit was also inferior to Golden Frieza. Zamasu was inferior to all of them.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly >>>> Jiren is a fact.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

1. Well it's not a fact and that is fact.

2. You constantly bolding parts of your messages isn't you making a point.

3. Your "never" is wrong too considering Golden Frieza was inferior to Beerus. Goku Black was also inferior to Hit. Unique abilities aside Hit was also inferior to Golden Frieza. Zamasu was inferior to all of them.

Broly > Jiren is still a fact. There’s no way around it.

YOU have to prove that Broly isn’t stronger than Jiren.

That’s how this thing works.

Because next enemy > previous enemy is the norm.

Whenever exceptions occur, it will be undeniable. (Such as in the case of Beerus > Golden Frieza, Golden Frieza > Hit, and Super Buu > Kid Buu.)

Jiren being >>>>> Broly, is NOT undeniable.!

You are clearly a biased Jiren fan. Otherwise you wouldn’t try to defend Jiren this hard.. The writing is on the wall here. I know what you’re doing.

[Hugo Boss]

For sure, you can stick with Toriyama’s desire of always coming up with stronger characters, but sometimes even the author admits he has trouble following that thought line. Beerus is a good example of this. Toriyama made him too strong.

It’s also difficult to imply Broly is stronger than Jiren when he doesn’t fight Ultra Instinct Goku like Jiren does, but instead he fights Super Saiyan Blue. It’s a different situation from Moro giving trouble to a much stronger Goku in that same form.

Anyway, I don’t see how is so clear to some people that Whis is implying Vegeta is stronger than Broly or Jiren, when he didn’t accomplish nothing yet to warrant him that position. Goku was practically asking if someone like Granola exists, not if there is someone between him and Vegeta.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Anyway, I don’t see how is so clear to some people that Whis is implying Vegeta is stronger than Broly or Jiren, when he didn’t accomplish nothing yet to warrant him that position. Goku was practically asking if someone like Granola exists, not if there is someone between him and Vegeta.

Agreed, basically. Goku's question is made in the context of who will become the strongest fighter in the Universe, whom Oracle Fish is already predicting the emergence of. Whis saying that someone else may be referred to in the prediction, but having no-one specific in mind other than Vegeta and Goku as a candidate for this title, has no necessary bearing on what the current status quo is.

(Besides which, Broly's power is super-erratic and it's by no means clear he can access and control all that power he showed in the film at will - if anything, the reverse).

[ZombieVito]

Broly >>>> Jiren is a fact.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

1. Well it's not a fact and that is fact.

2. You constantly bolding parts of your messages isn't you making a point.

3. Your "never" is wrong too considering Golden Frieza was inferior to Beerus. Goku Black was also inferior to Hit. Unique abilities aside Hit was also inferior to Golden Frieza. Zamasu was inferior to all of them.

Huh? Goku Black trashes Hit power wise.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly >>>> Jiren is a fact.

Toriyama NEVER takes a step back from this formula.

1. Well it's not a fact and that is fact.

2. You constantly bolding parts of your messages isn't you making a point.

3. Your "never" is wrong too considering Golden Frieza was inferior to Beerus. Goku Black was also inferior to Hit. Unique abilities aside Hit was also inferior to Golden Frieza. Zamasu was inferior to all of them.

You are the one who is wrong in this case here.

Manga Goku Black TRASHES Hit! There’s no doubt about that.

Hit was weaker than a SSJ God in the Manga.

While Goku Black only needed SSJ1 + a Zenkai Boost to completely overpower initial SSJ Blue Vegeta!

And that was before ever attaining SSJ Rosé. After which, he got stronger again through zenkai’s!

There’s no way Manga Hit is stronger than Goku Black here.

[Miracles]

Golden Freeza appearing after Beerus does not negate Toriyam's "always strongest" formula. Look at the current chapter with Granolah! How he is the strongest in the universe, with the exception of the gods; Namely Beerus again. So Toriyama's plot of Goku "always" facing the "strongest" still stands eternal.

[Miracles]

So, due to my post above being a straight out fact. One can not legitimately say that Jiren is stronger than Broly. That's just false. Also, because of chapter 70's revelations one can not say Jiren or Broly is stronger than Vegeta either. After Goku asked who would be stronger than "US"; Whis said he specifically knows of no one who is "stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. This is a statement for the present. It's not talking about future. Right now Whis is saying Goku and Vegeta are the strongest in the universe. Broly and Jiren are weaker than both.

[Magnificent Ponta]

After Goku asked who would be stronger than "US"; Whis said he specifically knows of no one who is "stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. This is a statement for the present. It's not talking about future. Right now Whis is saying Goku and Vegeta are the strongest in the universe.

Given that the whole context of the conversation is around the Oracle Fish's prediction that the strongest warrior in the Universe "will soon rise up", and taking into account the resolve of both fighters to develop further and claim that predicted title, I find I must disagree that this is a necessary conclusion from this exchange.

[TheNingen]

So, due to my post above being a straight out fact. One can not legitimately say that Jiren is stronger than Broly. That's just false. Also, because of chapter 70's revelations one can not say Jiren or Broly is stronger than Vegeta either. After Goku asked who would be stronger than "US"; Whis said he specifically knows of no one who is "stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. This is a statement for the present. It's not talking about future. Right now Whis is saying Goku and Vegeta are the strongest in the universe. Broly and Jiren are weaker than both.

Using your logic, Beerus is weaker than Goku and Vegeta then as he inhabits their "universe." Jiren is not a part of their universe so it wouldn't fall into the answer Whis gives.

It isn't a defined fact either. Golden Freeza was NOT stronger than Beerus. Yet GF was the next foe. Pure Buu was not stronger than Super Buu, but he was the last foe. Goku Black initially was NOT stronger than Hit. Toriyama does not keep consistent to this rule. He plays around with it. He writes by the seat of his pants because that's how he knows to do things. He has played around with this "rule" throughout ALL of Dragon Ball. He has changed the formula and things he has done multiple times throughout the course of the story because he wanted to. You have no argument to stand on when Golden Freeza and Hit exist as counterexamples to the rule. In the anime, the reason Goku even used the Kaioken to begin with was so that he'd be FAST enough to counter the time skip. It wasn't a situation of power because regular Blue would have done the job just fine. Goku and Vegeta BOTH knew that. In the manga, God was enough. Blue was used in the same fashion as the Kaioken.

Both you and Vegetto have a nasty habit of condescending to nearly anyone who disagrees with you while spouting your opinions as fact. And frankly I'm quite sick of it. If the story was really backing your points up, then you, who is so clearly paying attention to the narrative and things being said would have seen that your argument can easily be dismantled and the point of 'Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Beerus' can be made given Whis' comment, and that Toriyama's "The next foe is always stronger!' has already been tossed aside by none other than himself in regards to Super and Pure Buu, and then with Golden Freeza and Hit. Both of you two need to do a major overhaul in the way you conduct yourselves because myself and many others are tired of the disrespect you both constantly throw anybody's way that disagrees with you in the slightest. This is the only comment I plan to make on that matter and I don't plan to acknowledge either of you further.

[Koitsukai]

Tradition doesn't mean fact. Specially when DBS has already introduced Hit and Freeza breaking the so-called unbreakable rule, that was broken in DBZ with Kid Buu, too.

Usually when a character is stronger than the previous one, there's at least one way that the story proves that.
The androids trashed Trunks and Vegeta.
Buu trashed Vegeta who was said to be stronger than the Gohan that killed Cell.
Kid Buu through feats and statements, below Super Buu.

Beerus was stated to be even beyond Vegito.
Golden Freeza was afraid of Beerus but stronger than SSB.
Hit - shown to be weaker than the previous enemy.
Black - beat up SSB unlike Hit who relied on something besides strenght
Jiren - UI level
Moro - said to be the toughest ever
Granolah - blatantly said to be currently the strongest

Broly was the only one who didn't get proof, only a vague comparison to Beerus that by now we know holds no water, unless somebody actually thinks Broly > Granolah only because he was compared to Beerus 3 years ago...

"Toriyama usually does so and so" isn't evidence.
Also, when that does happen, the new villain isn't the only one stronger than the previous foe, the heroes tend to also be stronger than them, Trunks and Vegeta were stronger than Freeza vs the androids.
Everybody was stronger than the androids by the Cell Games.
Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Cell in the Buu arc.
They weren't stronger than Beerus vs Golden Freeza.
We don't know if by the U6 arc they were stronger than Golden Freeza.
They were stronger than Zamasu vs Jiren.
They were NOT stronger than Jiren vs Broly.
They probably were stronger than Broly and Jiren vs Moro (this one might need something more to be clear)

[Miracles]

After Goku asked who would be stronger than "US"; Whis said he specifically knows of no one who is "stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. This is a statement for the present. It's not talking about future. Right now Whis is saying Goku and Vegeta are the strongest in the universe.

Given that the whole context of the conversation is around the Oracle Fish's prediction that the strongest warrior in the Universe "will soon rise up", and taking into account the resolve of both fighters to develop further and claim that predicted title, I find I must disagree that this is a necessary conclusion from this exchange.

That's because you disagree with the whole context of the convo. Whis confirmed that he know's of no one stronger than Goku and Vegeta specifically. HOWEVER Whis says you never know when the "NEXT" Powerful opponent will show. THIS is where the orcale Fish prophecy comes in for future.

So, due to my post above being a straight out fact. One can not legitimately say that Jiren is stronger than Broly. That's just false. Also, because of chapter 70's revelations one can not say Jiren or Broly is stronger than Vegeta either. After Goku asked who would be stronger than "US"; Whis said he specifically knows of no one who is "stronger" than Goku and Vegeta. This is a statement for the present. It's not talking about future. Right now Whis is saying Goku and Vegeta are the strongest in the universe. Broly and Jiren are weaker than both.

Using your logic, Beerus is weaker than Goku and Vegeta then as he inhabits their "universe." Jiren is not a part of their universe so it wouldn't fall into the answer Whis gives.

It isn't a defined fact either. Golden Freeza was NOT stronger than Beerus. Yet GF was the next foe. Pure Buu was not stronger than Super Buu, but he was the last foe. Goku Black initially was NOT stronger than Hit. Toriyama does not keep consistent to this rule. He plays around with it. He writes by the seat of his pants because that's how he knows to do things. He has played around with this "rule" throughout ALL of Dragon Ball. He has changed the formula and things he has done multiple times throughout the course of the story because he wanted to. You have no argument to stand on when Golden Freeza and Hit exist as counterexamples to the rule. In the anime, the reason Goku even used the Kaioken to begin with was so that he'd be FAST enough to counter the time skip. It wasn't a situation of power because regular Blue would have done the job just fine. Goku and Vegeta BOTH knew that. In the manga, God was enough. Blue was used in the same fashion as the Kaioken.

Both you and Vegetto have a nasty habit of condescending to nearly anyone who disagrees with you while spouting your opinions as fact. And frankly I'm quite sick of it. If the story was really backing your points up, then you, who is so clearly paying attention to the narrative and things being said would have seen that your argument can easily be dismantled and the point of 'Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Beerus' can be made given Whis' comment, and that Toriyama's "The next foe is always stronger!' has already been tossed aside by none other than himself in regards to Super and Pure Buu, and then with Golden Freeza and Hit. Both of you two need to do a major overhaul in the way you conduct yourselves because myself and many others are tired of the disrespect you both constantly throw anybody's way that disagrees with you in the slightest. This is the only comment I plan to make on that matter and I don't plan to acknowledge either of you further.

Your logic doesn't work since the story refuted it. Granolah is the strongest in the universe APART from the gods. That means Beerus. This goes the same for Goku and Vegeta since Granolah is stronger than both right now.

[Magnificent Ponta]

That's because you disagree with the whole context of the convo. Whis confirmed that he know's of no one stronger than Goku and Vegeta specifically. HOWEVER Whis says you never know when the "NEXT" Powerful opponent will show. THIS is where the orcale Fish prophecy comes in for future.

Before that, Goku mentions that he and Vegeta will determine who can be the strongest in the Universe - as in, this is yet to unfold, once they have reaped the fruits of their training. Which is what provokes Whis's reply about how it might end up not being either of them. Which again feeds into the broader context of things we've already seen Oracle Fish say (which is actually the whole context of the conversation, given that it stands behind the whole arc so far). Whis is just saying he doesn't have anyone in mind specifically for this future strongest warrior, if it's not Goku or Vegeta.

I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that Vegeta is (usually) stronger than Broly - just with the idea that this specific exchange necessarily establishes anything along those lines in and of itself.

[Miracles]

That's because you disagree with the whole context of the convo. Whis confirmed that he know's of no one stronger than Goku and Vegeta specifically. HOWEVER Whis says you never know when the "NEXT" Powerful opponent will show. THIS is where the orcale Fish prophecy comes in for future.

Before that, Goku mentions that he and Vegeta will determine who can be the strongest in the Universe - as in, this is yet to unfold, once they have reaped the fruits of their training. Which is what provokes Whis's reply about how it might end up not being either of them. Which again feeds into the broader context of things we've already seen Oracle Fish say (which is actually the whole context of the conversation, given that it stands behind the whole arc so far). Whis is just saying he doesn't have anyone in mind specifically for this future strongest warrior, if it's not Goku or Vegeta.

I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that Vegeta is (usually) stronger than Broly - just with the idea that this specific exchange necessarily establishes anything along those lines in and of itself.

Yes, the reason why Goku says the title for strongest is between him and Vegeta is because afterwards he questions who is stronger than them. Whis AGREES and says NO one. THEN He says we never know who will pop up NEXT. It's a progressive convo from the present to the future.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Yes, the reason why Goku says the title for strongest is between him and Vegeta is because afterwards he questions who is stronger than them. Whis AGREES and says NO one. THEN He says we never know who will pop up NEXT. It's a progressive convo from the present to the future.

If it moved from the present to the future as simply as you're saying, then Goku and Whis wouldn't have framed the original discussion in terms of what will happen - the discussion would be which of them is the strongest in the Universe right now. But rather it is because the scope of reference is the future that the conversation is happening at all. All of it is about the future, not about the present. Just like when they later ask Oracle Fish who the strongest person in the Universe is: Vegeta isn't suggesting it's him right now because he can Hakai a pebble; he's claiming that he's going to be the strongest warrior foreseen. In just such a fashion, Goku asks Whis whether he knows someone who will occupy the position of strongest in the Universe at the end of their training besides themselves, and Whis simply professes ignorance of such a person. The future being in view is the whole framing of the conversation, from beginning to end. It doesn't progress in the manner you describe.

[Miracles]

Yes, the reason why Goku says the title for strongest is between him and Vegeta is because afterwards he questions who is stronger than them. Whis AGREES and says NO one. THEN He says we never know who will pop up NEXT. It's a progressive convo from the present to the future.

If it moved from the present to the future as simply as you're saying, then Goku and Whis wouldn't have framed the original discussion in terms of what will happen- the discussion would be which of them is the strongest in the Universe right now. But rather it is because the scope of reference is the future that the conversation is happening at all. All of it is about the future, not about the present. Just like when they later ask Oracle Fish who the strongest person in the Universe is: Vegeta isn't suggesting it's him right now because he can Hakai a pebble; he's claiming that he's going to be the strongest warrior foreseen. In just such a fashion, Goku asks Whis whether he knows someone who will occupy the position of strongest in the Universe at the end of their training besides themselves, and Whis simply professes ignorance of such a person.The future being in view is the whole framing of the conversation, from beginning to end.

And that future discussion, at first, only regarded Goku and Vegeta because Goku and Whis don't know of anyone stronger than them NOW.

[Magnificent Ponta]

And that future discussion, at first, only regarded Goku and Vegeta because Goku and Whis don't know of anyone stronger than them NOW.

No, it regards Goku and Vegeta because they are rivals attempting to achieve this status at a future date based on what they are training to develop in Ultra Instinct and Hakai respectively, not because of anything that is already the case. It starts as a future discussion and remains one centred on the future.

Again, I'm not even denying that they may actually hold the positions of #1 and #2 right now; I'm just saying the conversation itself doesn't establish that they do, because that's not what it's about.

[Miracles]

And that future discussion, at first, only regarded Goku and Vegeta because Goku and Whis don't know of anyone stronger than them NOW.

No, it regards Goku and Vegeta because they are rivals attempting to achieve this status at a future date based on what they are training to develop in Ultra Instinct and Hakai respectively, not because of anything that is already the case. It starts as a future discussion and remains one centred on the future.

Again, I'm not even denying that they may actually hold the positions of #1 and #2 right now; I'm just saying the conversation itself doesn't establish that they do, because that's not what it's about.

No, Goku asking Whis who is stronger [current] than he and Vegeta; with Whis claiming no one [present]. THEN stating; you never know who might show up "NEXT [future]" defeats your half reading of the text. It starts as a future discussion BECAUSE the title for the strongest can only be competed with the current strongest. Then ends up who will be stronger based on the oracle fish.