What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

[GodVegetto91]

Just like they quietly retconned Broly > Beerus in this manga chapter..

Although it’s never outright stated..!

There is VAST reason to believe this may have been the case.

All evidence (in current chapters) points towards the Gods of Destruction being above any and all mortals.

These chapters are CLEARLY writing Hakai power as something special, and far beyond mortal ability!

Hence why even Vegeta! (Who this chapter confirmed is above Broly and Jiren) is simply astounded and impressed by this power..

”Such force! How can I acquire such power?!” — Vegeta

The same “power” that Belmod is supposed to have!

Spoiler:

[Jack Bz]

The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.

[UpFromTheSkies]

The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.

This is true, brute strength isn't everything, a perfect example is Ultra SS.

[theherodjl]

Hakaishin are so fearsome for their ability to eradicate things from existence and because they have Angel attendants, not because they have a high PL. If you took away Beerus' ability to destroy things as well as Whis' assistance, Goku probably has the advantage over Beerus at this point; as is the case with Jiren & Belmod.
Its a matter of universal function vs raw power when it comes to Hakaishin & mortals.

[Soldierofficial]

It was never stated that Broly can defeat Beerus, neither was stated that Jiren can defeat Belmod, so there are not retcons here, as what you say was never a fact to begin with.

[GodVegetto91]

Hakaishin are so fearsome for their ability to eradicate things from existence and because they have Angel attendants, not because they have a high PL. If you took away Beerus' ability to destroy things as well as Whis' assistance, Goku probably has the advantage over Beerus at this point; as is the case with Jiren & Belmod.
Its a matter of universal function vs raw power when it comes to Hakaishin & mortals.

Fair point..

[ankokudaishogun]

neither was stated that Jiren can defeat Belmod,

At the very least, it was stated Belmod cannot defeat Jiren.

IIRC, manga Toppo states Jiren is better than Belmod when talking about martial SKILL, not simply power.

[Hellspawn28]

The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.

Can Hakai even work if someone is above them in power? It would make things more broken and less risky if they can erase anything.

[Dragon Wukong]

Can Hakai even work if someone is above them in power? It would make things more broken and less risky if they can erase anything.

We know it works irrespective of power (seemingly) in the manga. Goku used it on Fused Zamasu, who despite being stronger was still being disintegrated.

[ankokudaishogun]

Can Hakai even work if someone is above them in power? It would make things more broken and less risky if they can erase anything.

We know it works irrespective of power (seemingly) in the manga. Goku used it on Fused Zamasu, who despite being stronger was still being disintegrated.

Manga Fused Zamasu was weaker than Complete Blue

[Koitsukai]

Can Hakai even work if someone is above them in power? It would make things more broken and less risky if they can erase anything.

We know it works irrespective of power (seemingly) in the manga. Goku used it on Fused Zamasu, who despite being stronger was still being disintegrated.

Manga Fused Zamasu was weaker than Complete Blue

To me they were even.
Anyway, the anime had hakai as a technique that can be overwhelmed by sheer power, as seen in Toppo vs Vegeta. This doesn't have to apply to the manga, but I think we might be getting something similar if Vegeta and Granolah meet, and Vegeta's hakai isn't enough vs Granolah.

If they meet, and fight -because Goku might wakuwaku himself to fight Granolah before Geets- we should get a definitive answer.

[Mister_Popo]

Chances are real they (or at least the top tier Gods) are still above all mortals to date, including powerhouses like Jiren or MUI Goku.
It's not entirely clear whether it's mainly because of the Hakai, or they simply have a higher 'power level'.
We should wait and see untill we finally see a fight in which Beerus or Belmod finally have to fight seriously (for their lifes or at least with very high stakes).

[Hugo Boss]

Jiren can be a better combatant than Vermoud, but still lose to his techniques and tricks. Destruction seems to borrow the power emited by the matter being obliterated and likely can be used as a weapon in a fight. It's not necessarily dependent on battle power.

[GodVegetto91]

Jiren can be a better combatant than Vermoud, but still lose to his techniques and tricks. [i]Destruction[/i] seems to borrow the power emited by the matter being obliterated and likely can be used as a weapon in a fight. It's not necessarily dependent on battle power.

This, however, has not been proven unfortunately.. No such thing was ever stated. That doesn’t neccesarily mean that it isn’t the case ofcourse, but there is objectively no evidence that proves it.

[Hugo Boss]

I said it seems, because of what Beerus implies when he explains to Vegeta how the technique works. When the matter is destroyed it releases heaps of energy, so it’s not exactly Beerus’ energy that causes damage to his comic, but the colateral effect of Destruction. Using that energy in a fight is what I think is the point of learning it.

[GodVegetto91]

I said it seems, because of what Beerus implies when he explains to Vegeta how the technique works. When the matter is destroyed it releases heaps of energy, so it’s not exactly Beerus’ energy that causes damage to his comic, but the colateral effect of Destruction. Using that energy in a fight is what I think is the point of learning it.

In your theory, they use the energy AFTER the Hakai is performed.. But how does one Hakai an object in the first place??? Never explained by Toyotaro!

All that’s explained is the method of how it works AFTER the thing is done that causes the object to explode, then erased from existence, followed by/causing yet another even bigger explosion! Unfortunately it is also never directly stated that he steals the energy from the explosion a la androids 19, 20 and Moro style! (Not saying it isn’t the case either ofcourse, it could very well be.) But for now, it’s never explained “HOW” one manages to “Hakai” an object in the first place. It seems Toyotaro isn’t as good of a writer as I previously thought, because he (either deliberately or not) witholds information.

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, my theory is that the energy he uses to destroy matter is just the breakpoint to generate higher levels of energy. I’m not saying he steals energy or something like that, but rather he ignites explosions accordingly to the situation.

For now, Destruction can be performed in two manners. Aim the target or embed a ki blast with destructive god power. The explanation might come in due time. It’s not explained as well how Vegeta ki blasts split Moro’s collected power, but it’s probably the same principle.

[GodVegetto91]

Actually, my theory is that the energy he uses to destroy matter is just the breakpoint to generate higher levels of energy. I’m not saying he steals energy or something like that, but rather he ignites explosions accordingly to the situation.

For now, Destruction can be performed in two manners. Aim the target or embed a ki blast with destructive god power. The explanation might come in due time. It’s not explained as well how Vegeta ki blasts split Moro’s collected power, but it’s probably the same principle.

I have a hard time picturing (or fully understanding) any of this..

[Koitsukai]

I think you are both on the same page, if I understood what Hugo is trying to say, he means Beerus forces an object or subject to release a large amount of energy when they are destroyed, and that the bang isn't made by Beerus' energy but from the object itself.

So it doesn't matter how strong the hakai-user is when it comes to creating the bang as long as they can make that thing go boom, and what Vegeta is learning is how to make that happen.
So Jiren can be stronger than Vermoud but at the same time he can still be defeated or killed by this technique.

[GodVegetto91]

I think you are both on the same page, if I understood what Hugo is trying to say, he means Beerus forces an object or subject to release a large amount of energy when they are destroyed, and that the bang isn't made by Beerus' energy but from the object itself.

So it doesn't matter how strong the hakai-user is when it comes to creating the bang as long as they can make that thing go boom, and what Vegeta is learning is how to make that happen.
So Jiren can be stronger than Vermoud but at the same time he can still be defeated or killed by this technique.

I mean, I’m all for the theory that the Hakai user can use the massive energy released from an erased object to make himself stronger for battle. The problem is ofcourse that this is never fully stated. And the implication for that isn’t exactly “too” strong either.

However, if Belmod can use that energy for battle and to power himself up, then the end result is the same: He’s stronger than Jiren.. (With it!)

It still doesn’t explain “HOW” they make the target go “boom” and be erased ofcourse.