"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Goku could simply be using regular Blue to test Granola’s strenght. This whole chapter was Goku going through his forms so it’s not impossible that he is simply using regular Blue and will use the completed version in the next chapter.

But the concern we have is that it will weaken him, as it’s known to massively drain the user’s energy.

We saw Vegeta use regular Blue and then completed Blue against Beerus before ToP and it didn’t seem to weaken the power of completed Blue. But I guess we just have to wait and see if it drains Goku’s energy too much.

I HOPE you’re right!

Good observation!

It still doesn’t make any sense that he would use this form though.. But it is what it is.

[LightBing]

It was a fun action chapter.

- Granolah continues to be a solid antagonist, he actually attacked and defeated his opponent before even showing himself! Shame he later got into Goku's rhythm, it's not a big problem for the character since he's in complete control.

- Glad his snipping ability is being used and it's something rather fresh for Dragon Ball. Also his "better" instant transportation pretty much confirms that he has all the techniques but better. Like I said in past chapters, I expect it to be his downfall, since Vegeta and Goku should have "trained/earned versions" and that's the point of the conflict.

- While Dragon Ball always had this trope of "hiding power", it's recent portrayal is thoughtless. Going by transformations with massive gaps in power is ridiculous, then with the current context Goku comes out as an idiot. Holding back after already have been defeated is stupid.
The second snipe should have ended like the first and I have to speculate, in-universe, that Granolah hold back because he know Goku was holding back himself, which is a stretch...

- I like how there's still lore to be revealed, it's nice seeing Vegeta collected and analytical.

- Two questions: why does Super Saiyan transformations help UI and why did Goku went Blue? I'm assuming the second is a mistake, no big deal I hope. But the first, why? Seems counter-intuitive for what the technique is.

Anyway I hope for one more punch-fest next chapter, it's entertaining but I rather they move along since everyone's holding back.
Hell, give me a whole chapter of Detective Vegeta, who's with me?

[Kinokima]

I’ve been thinking why wasn’t Granolah surprised when Goku got up after the first blow which looks like it should have killed him. Granolah shouldn’t know about Senzu. Even if he saw Vegeta give him something he should still be confused.

Not a huge deal but feels like it should have been addressed

Also I wonder if the fact they only have one more Senzu is going to come into play somehow.

[GodVegetto91]

I’ve been thinking why wasn’t Granolah surprised when Goku got up after the first blow which looks like it should have killed him. Granolah shouldn’t know about Senzu. Even if he saw Vegeta give him something he should still be confused.

Not a huge deal but feels like it should have been addressed

Also I wonder if the fact they only have one more Senzu is going to come into play somehow.

Here’s the real answer:

Toyotaro’s sole purpose was to make Granolah look as good, impressive, and imposive as possible at this point in the chapter. Obviously anything that deludes that at the beginning of this story is not going to be desired or included by Toyotaro.

[Hugo Boss]

I was thinking about the way Goku used Super Saiyan Blue in this fight and perhaps there is an explanation to why he isn’t using the perfected version.

In the beginning of the fight, Vegeta pointed out that Goku was relying too much on Ultra Instinct and suggested that he uses his mind.

In another hand, containing Super Saiyan Blue’s aura requires concentration, so, if Goku wants to use it in conjunction with Ultra Instinct, he has to abandon this gimmick temporarily.

Perhaps Goku is trying to figure out which method pays off better, as he never had the opportunity to test them.

[MCDaveG]

I am interested in what connection is Vegeta going to... and will have to wait month for that.
Otherwise, while Toyotaro is definitely getting better and better in his manga schtick and art was nice,
wasn't much impressed by the fight as there is nothing new really, but the tidbit with Granolah eye was interesting, already know this from Naruto years back...

Sure that Granolah is the cliché hellbent on revenge, asking questions later... not only it is old, uninteresting, repetitive and kills the appeal with Granolah a bit. He's just a sad loser from the moment he used the Dragon Balls behind his friend's back and karma is for free.

See you next month then and I hope that Vegeta will come ready with some answers!

PS: I really like Vegeta's sympathetic moments lately and being the voice of reason. I just hope he doesn't end up like Piccolo

[GodVegetto91]

I was thinking about the way Goku used Super Saiyan Blue in this fight and perhaps there is an explanation to why he isn’t using the perfected version.

In the beginning of the fight, Vegeta pointed out that Goku was relying too much on Ultra Instinct and suggested that he uses his mind.

In another hand, containing Super Saiyan Blue’s aura requires concentration, so, if Goku wants to use it in conjunction with Ultra Instinct, he has to abandon this gimmick temporarily.

Perhaps Goku is trying to figure out which method pays off better, as he never had the opportunity to test them.

Goku’s Silver haired form also has no aura... Neither does SSJ God or his Base form.

[Kinokima]

I am interested in what connection is Vegeta going to... and will have to wait month for that.
Otherwise, while Toyotaro is definitely getting better and better in his manga schtick and art was nice,
wasn't much impressed by the fight as there is nothing new really, but the tidbit with Granolah eye was interesting, already know this from Naruto years back...

Sure that Granolah is the cliché hellbent on revenge, asking questions later... not only it is old, uninteresting, repetitive and kills the appeal with Granolah a bit. He's just a sad loser from the moment he used the Dragon Balls behind his friend's back and karma is for free.

See you next month then and I hope that Vegeta will come ready with some answers!

PS: I really like Vegeta's sympathetic moments lately and being the voice of reason. I just hope he doesn't end up like Piccolo

I personally just think the connection Vegeta is making is he probably heard about a race with an advanced eye that was purged from other Saiyans and then seeing the Giant foot print confirmed it

I would love for something more than that but I am not going to expect it.

[MCDaveG]

I am interested in what connection is Vegeta going to... and will have to wait month for that.
Otherwise, while Toyotaro is definitely getting better and better in his manga schtick and art was nice,
wasn't much impressed by the fight as there is nothing new really, but the tidbit with Granolah eye was interesting, already know this from Naruto years back...

Sure that Granolah is the cliché hellbent on revenge, asking questions later... not only it is old, uninteresting, repetitive and kills the appeal with Granolah a bit. He's just a sad loser from the moment he used the Dragon Balls behind his friend's back and karma is for free.

See you next month then and I hope that Vegeta will come ready with some answers!

PS: I really like Vegeta's sympathetic moments lately and being the voice of reason. I just hope he doesn't end up like Piccolo

I personally just think the connection Vegeta is making is he probably heard about a race with an advanced eye that was purged from other Saiyans and then seeing the Giant foot print confirmed it

I would love for something more than that but I am not going to expect it.

Yeah... somehow I have to accept that I am over 30 already and manga for kids won't impress me as much as being pre-teen back in the day. Special eye and giant foot... Saiyans were here! Vegeta: ''Kakarot! Beware of his special eye!''

[GodVegetto91]

Why does Goku’s UI get more “accurate” with each new transformation??

Shouldn’t it be the same for all forms, considering that it’s a technique and as a technique, it has nothing to do with strength?

This confused me..

[DiscountDabi]

Why does Goku’s UI get more “accurate” with each new transformation??

Shouldn’t it be the same for all forms, considering that it’s a technique and as a technique, it has nothing to do with strength?

This confused me..

I like to think of it like this. I always looked at the Ultra Instinct Transformation as his Body Adapting as to properly hone ultra instinct. Kinda how Moro’s Body couldn’t handle it.

Think of it like One For All in My Hero. He can use 10%, but as he gets stronger his body is able to use higher percentages of One For All.

As Goku transforms and gets stronger he can use more of Ultra Instinct as the Transformation can handle it where his lesser forms can’t. And The Silver Haired Form of Ultra Instinct is his Body letting him use the Full power of Ultra Instinct if that makes any sense.

[Jack Bz]

Why does Goku’s UI get more “accurate” with each new transformation??

Shouldn’t it be the same for all forms, considering that it’s a technique and as a technique, it has nothing to do with strength?

This confused me..

Merus did imply that the stronger someone is, the more stable ultra instinct is as a result:



So I suppose the reason is that using the super saiyan forms make ultra instinct more stable because Goku is stronger.

I'm guessing that because Goku has learnt to use ultra instinct in his comparatively weaker base form, it might be even more stable/refined in the silver form now.

[Mac]

So does the UI body hardening thing only happen when in the silver haired form or what? I was confused by that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

So does the UI body hardening thing only happen when in the silver haired form or what?

I think so. Whis mentioned that the body would do that "when Ultra Instinct is honed to this extent", and so far in the fight with Granolah, Goku's been manifesting the technique in a way that generally seems less 'well-honed' than he achieves with the form he used against Moro.

[LightBing]

So does the UI body hardening thing only happen when in the silver haired form or what? I was confused by that.

There's also the possibility Granolah's technique overrides UI's defense since it can "see" it adapting.

[ssj3kakarot]

So does the UI body hardening thing only happen when in the silver haired form or what? I was confused by that.

There's also the possibility Granolah's technique overrides UI's defense since it can "see" it adapting.

I seriously hope that isn't the case. Why have Angels, characters who literally are the strongest in the Universe, on mulitple occasion declare a mastered UI user can't lose. Whis and Merus both stated something to that effect. I'm all for Goku coming up against challenges, but UI has be promoted as the perfect defense, and to have some Cereal-coco-puff wish all that away because, plot, just doesn't sit well.

Guess we will have to see how Granolah vs Silver UI Goku goes before any conclusions.

[LightBing]

I seriously hope that isn't the case. Why have Angels, characters who literally are the strongest in the Universe, on mulitple occasion declare a mastered UI user can't lose. Whis and Merus both stated something to that effect. I'm all for Goku coming up against challenges, but UI has be promoted as the perfect defense, and to have some Cereal-coco-puff wish all that away because, plot, just doesn't sit well.

Guess we will have to see how Granolah vs Silver UI Goku goes before any conclusions.

Well that was said before we even knew there were different levels of UI. It's just the nature of the manga, there will always be someone stronger, what was deemed invincible can be a laughing level the following arc.

I rather prefer an apparent counter like sniper, than just a bigger transformation/more power.

[TKA]

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.

And I don't give a hoot about Jiren's power level. Or any power level. Granolah shooting up from mook to being as strong as gods off of one wish is story-breaking and makes everything before and after look stupid. I said this months ago, and it's still an albatross around this arc's neck.

Finally, I don't give a damn about Granolah learning some moral lesson about hard work or whatever. Now we know that whenever a slightly stronger bad guy shows up, literally everyone has the ability to wish to be stronger than that bad guy and beat them, and then die and get wished back. It's bad, hackneyed writing.

A few things:

-We don't know if Shenlong or Porunga can grant exchange wishes like Toronbo.

-Shenlong cannot revive people who die of natural causes. Presumably, even if your lifespan is shortened by a wish, this would count as dying of old age.

-I guess Super Shenlong could do it, but he could also presumably grant a wish to be 100 quintillion times stronger than Jiren, so there's that.

-Even if dying from this wish wasn't considered natural causes, we don't know if a dragon can unwish the actions of another dragon. I would presume not, with the exception of Super Shenlong.

-Shenlong cannot grant the same wish twice, so worst case scenario - and I agree it would be bad - this could only happen once with Shenlong and presumably once with Porunga.

-I agree that Goku and Vegeta would be willing to do it in a pinch, but that would be very difficult.

-As you said, there may be more to it. I'm still expecting Granolla's power to increase if Goku/etc. improves during battle, thus further diminishing Granolla's lifespan.

All of these are valid ways to explain why they couldn't do it before.

The story has not done so (yet), which leads me to believe there has got to be more to this.

[ZodiacBeast]

I could see the Z-Buddies wishing for something like getting rid of the strain of the Kaio-Ken, but I doubt they would wish to increase their raw/actual strength. They wouldn't want to cheat to get ahead, but they'd want to have an ace to pull out when they need it.

[Cipher]

- Two questions: why does Super Saiyan transformations help UI and why did Goku went Blue? I'm assuming the second is a mistake, no big deal I hope. But the first, why? Seems counter-intuitive for what the technique is.

Why wouldn’t a transformation that increases both speed and power help improve Goku’s consistency with UI? The goal is to get it into top shape without transformations, but in the meantime improvements to his physical speed and power should help, right?

Anyway, fun chapter. I guess the Bardock thing was just an Easter egg after all (rather than something plot-relevant) since there was no recognition with Goku.

Re: Goku using original-flavor Blue: They got around its massive power-drain long ago—by the time Vegeta had his second fight with Black. I don’t think there’s any deeper reason for using it here than Goku being Goku and steadily feeling Granolah’s power out/enjoying the fight. He’s done this “Let’s go all out now (but not actually)” shtick before.

Prediction that may not happen: Gas attempts to steal another “strongest in the universe” wish out from under Elec after realizing Elec doesn’t actually have all that much faith in him—depending on what his past hangups are, he might be willing to make the lifespan trade.