Can Anyone Give Me Some Clarification on Cell?

[Xyex]

because if he could, he would have, right. I mean, it would save his own time line, it would bring his father back to life.

You're looking at this from entirely the wrong angle. I'm talking about Trunks second trip back. He knows he can't effect his own timeline so on his first trip his intent is to create a new timeline that can have peace. The intent of his second trip is to travel to that newly forged timeline again to assist them in defeating the Androids.

[Onikage725]

EDIT- I know this is going back, but I missed this when it first went up.

Gero changing plans
If Gero changed his plans, there's no evidence of it. Nothing is different from Future Trunks' timeline about the initial attack on the island: Gero creates androids numbered up to (at least) 18, someone attacks an island, the S fighters intercede - from there we see differences based on the fact that the Z fighters are stronger in the main timeline.

There are no evident changes in how the attacks played out? Doesn't at least the TV special say that 17 and 18 attacked? Does anyone have anything beyond wild conjecture to suggest that 19 and 20 first emerged, or were even made in the original timeline? Anything beyond "well probably?" 'Cuz the series directly states otherwise, and I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary beyond gut feeling and fan theory.

From Gero's own admission in the main timeline, he stopped watching Goku after he left for Namek, he didn't know about Super Saiyan. There's no reason to think that Trunks' appearance well after Gero had stopped caring would affect him.

Cell has Freeza's DNA. Which means Gero HAD to have seen as much... unless our scientist just stopped tracking the proceedings prematurely. One would think that, with Freeza threatening to blow up the earth, even Gero would have a vested interest in keeping his little spy bug around to see how that played out. He pretty much had to have seen the change. He likely just made the same mistake Babidi did- since he wasn't "scouting" he could have thought it a pointless cosmetic change and minor power upgrade. Yes Gero said that Trunks was inconsequential. But you say it would be out of character for Gero not to gloat about extra planning. I think it would be out of character for Gero to see a warrior never before encountered who was roughly on par with Goku and not take any steps whatsoever.

A lot of the information we have about the future is from Trunks - and he's shown to be wrong (He says the future #17 and #18 were stronger than the main timeline ones - but there's no evidence of that, both sets simply toy with Trunks, he's in no position to judge). I mean, it's nothing to fault Trunks on, I doubt there's a lot of record keeping going on, and he can't really be expected to know every detail about attacks that happened when he was one that have since become common-place.

The only thing you cited there is technically up for debate. Unlike most of Kaioshin's mistakes, noone ever comes down and says "hey actually, those two are just as strong as their future selves." So again we are going on pure conjecture. The only thing the series really gives us as Trunks getting wrong is stuff that was changed (thereby changing the events away from the historical records he would be going by). Everything else brought up in this thread as his wrongness is at the very least debatable and not actually stated in canon. At all.

There's no reason to think that Cell stayed in the ground in Future Trunks' timeline. Just like there's no reason to believe that #16 wasn't activated, or that Gero and #19 didn't attack the island. There's no direct evidence to suggest that any of these didn't happen; all we know for sure is that Trunks has never heard of #16 or #19 or #20,

Wait, Trunks' original timeline? Ok now I'm confused. Are we talking about the larval form in the lab or the cocoon that went back in time?

I doubt that 'Lazy Cell' ever got far enough to attack a town, but even if he did - how good do you think the historical records are in Trunks' dystopian future, where people live huddled in the riuns of buildings?

He got most of his knowledge of the time from Bulma. Would it be a stretch to say maybe Bulma tagged along like she did in the main timeline when there was news of trouble? Even if not, she masters quantum phsyics on the fly and whips up a time machine. It isn't a stretch to assume she kept records of her own, whether this stuff would exist in some library or not. I'm sorry, I just think it's a bit much, this Ninja Androids theory in which 3 extras + Cell ran amok and NOONE EVER HEARD OF ANY OF THEM.

[Xyex]

There are no evident changes in how the attacks played out? Doesn't at least the TV special say that 17 and 18 attacked? Does anyone have anything beyond wild conjecture to suggest that 19 and 20 first emerged, or were even made in the original timeline? Anything beyond "well probably?" 'Cuz the series directly states otherwise, and I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary beyond gut feeling and fan theory.

I can't remember, actually, if it mentions them. Though they are shown shortly after the city explosion and the quick shot of the Z Fighters.

But I do admit to 19 and 20 being in the original timeline as just my own thougths. I don't see how or why they would only exist in the altered timeline since Gero wasn't monitoring things anymore after Vegeta and thus had no reason to alter his plans any.

Cell has Freeza's DNA. Which means Gero HAD to have seen as much...

He out right states he's no longer monitoring things. I don't think he even knows who Freeza is. The only reason Cell has Freeza's DNA is the little DNA collecting robo-bug. It was still tailing the Z Fighters and, upon noticing Freeza, collected a sample of his DNA. Gero himself stopped watching after everyone left for Namek. But his computers kept collecting data for Cell without him.

I think it would be out of character for Gero to see a warrior never before encountered who was roughly on par with Goku and not take any steps whatsoever.

He never saw Trunks. This is proven by his reaction to Trunks appearing while the Z Fighters are chasing him. He doesn't know who the hell he is.

Wait, Trunks' original timeline? Ok now I'm confused. Are we talking about the larval form in the lab or the cocoon that went back in time?

He's refering to the Lazy Cell timeline with larval Cell in the ground but no alteration to the course of events from the Original timeline. The one that supposedly produced the Trunks we see in the series.

He got most of his knowledge of the time from Bulma. Would it be a stretch to say maybe Bulma tagged along like she did in the main timeline when there was news of trouble? Even if not, she masters quantum phsyics on the fly and whips up a time machine. It isn't a stretch to assume she kept records of her own, whether this stuff would exist in some library or not. I'm sorry, I just think it's a bit much, this Ninja Androids theory in which 3 extras + Cell ran amok and NOONE EVER HEARD OF ANY OF THEM.

I agree that having 16 and Cell running around seriously pushes things beyond belivabilty.

The only way I even really consider 19 and 20 as possible is if Piccolo/Vegeta found them within 15 or 20 minutes of their attack, destroyed 19 quickly, and then by the time the other Z Fighters investigated what was going on 17 and 18 were active, Gero was dead, Piccolo/Vegeta was dead, and the twins were already rampaging. Under those conditions people would simply assume that 17 and 18 were the cause of everything.

[Onikage725]

But I do admit to 19 and 20 being in the original timeline as just my own thougths. I don't see how or why they would only exist in the altered timeline since Gero wasn't monitoring things anymore after Vegeta and thus had no reason to alter his plans any.

Hm, I guess I just have as much trouble swallowing that as you guys have buying the Trunks ripple effect. This is conjecture on my part, so I'm not offering this as something to take into an official account, but maybe when Gero was transferring his brain into a new body, he lost a little bit of data. That makes more sense than a scientist trying to calibrate machines of vengeance not playing like 10 minutes of footage just to see where some of the major DNA was coming from. You'd figure he'd want to at least know what Freeza could do, since he was trying to make Cell "Perfect" and had to make him capable of merging with his two cyborgs to do so.It just seems odd that he would ignore basic steps of the scientific method during the most crucial phases of his planning.

I agree that having 16 and Cell running around seriously pushes things beyond belivabilty.

The only way I even really consider 19 and 20 as possible is if Piccolo/Vegeta found them within 15 or 20 minutes of their attack, destroyed 19 quickly, and then by the time the other Z Fighters investigated what was going on 17 and 18 were active, Gero was dead, Piccolo/Vegeta was dead, and the twins were already rampaging. Under those conditions people would simply assume that 17 and 18 were the cause of everything.

I can buy that as a plausible scenario, but I still think it helps us about as much as my Gero theory above- speculation with no canon support.

He's refering to the Lazy Cell timeline with larval Cell in the ground but no alteration to the course of events from the Original timeline. The one that supposedly produced the Trunks we see in the series.

Ok, then I have officially lost track of Lazy Cell. Does my paradox statement from a few pages back help? Mainly that Cell and Trunks from the original timeline both jump succesfully (Cell of course killing Trunks beforehand). Unfortunately for Cell, he took out Trunks after his second jump. And he emerges in the main timeline during said jump. This creates the split that becomes our timeline, and sees Trunks grow in strength. When he returns, he creates another split in his own original timeline since he is no longer A) unaware of Cell and B) inferior in strength to 1st stage Cell. So the Cell in this new timeline fails horribly, and never makes the trip back.

So is the missing Cell (or Lazy Cell I guess), one from a possible split from a timeline in which Cell failed to go backwards in time but should have still grown as normal? I think in this case we should just assume that affecting the future doesn't cause a split in the past. In other words, this would probably just loop to the original timeline (he doesn't go back, Trunks doesn't get as strong, etc). It's a little confusing, but it seems like Toriyama has some elements similar to what we see in Chrono Trigger but he has them expressed through divergent timelines (similar to the DCU's Hypertime I believe), yet we also have elements of a circular time theory.

Does that help any, or am I way off base?

[Xyex]

That makes more sense than a scientist trying to calibrate machines of vengeance not playing like 10 minutes of footage just to see where some of the major DNA was coming from. You'd figure he'd want to at least know what Freeza could do, since he was trying to make Cell "Perfect" and had to make him capable of merging with his two cyborgs to do so.It just seems odd that he would ignore basic steps of the scientific method during the most crucial phases of his planning.

Gero's no longer doing anything with Cell. He locked Cell up in the lower lab and left him entirely to the computer. The computer is filing, sorting, managing, adding, and discarding collected DNA all on its own. Gero doesn't know what DNA is or is not being collected or added and doesn't know what's going on outside of his lab as he's devoted the entirety of his time and focus to the creation of 17 and 18 (and 19 and 20).

So is the missing Cell (or Lazy Cell I guess), one from a possible split from a timeline in which Cell failed to go backwards in time but should have still grown as normal?

The basics of Desire's theory (minus extraneous 'extra' timelines) are this:

TL1 - Original Timeline - Trunks is killed by Cell, Cell goes back.
TL2 - Unseen Timeline - Made by TL1 Trunks.
TL3 - Lazy Cell Timeline - Made by TL1 Cell. IDENTICLE to TL1 with the exception of a Cell from the future. Trunks kills Cell after returning from TL4.
TL4 - Series Timeline - Made by TL3 Trunks. TL1 Cell surfaces here.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

TL3 - Lazy Cell Timeline - Made by TL1 Cell. IDENTICLE to TL1 with the exception of a Cell from the future. Trunks kills Cell after returning from TL4.

Huh? Wasn't that Cell the Cell that was growing under ground (which Trunks and Kuririn destroy in the series timeline)? Both of the future Trunk's timelines (including the unseen guy) were unaffected by any time travel, weren't they?

[Terra-jin]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGuHzVkLlno

For information on desirecampbell's theory, you should watch his video.

The order and nature of the timelines in his theory is rather different than Xyex's or my theories, because he assumes timelines to be created even when a traveller jumps to a future and that a newly created timeline does not have a 'past' - that is to say, they don't have any history up until the moment of its creation. Like myself, Xyex seems to assume the opposite to these two premises. Both views are valid, in my opinion, since there just isn't any tangible proof that can rule out or confirm anything as abstract as these matters.

[Onikage725]

Gero's no longer doing anything with Cell. He locked Cell up in the lower lab and left him entirely to the computer. The computer is filing, sorting, managing, adding, and discarding collected DNA all on its own. Gero doesn't know what DNA is or is not being collected or added and doesn't know what's going on outside of his lab as he's devoted the entirety of his time and focus to the creation of 17 and 18 (and 19 and 20).

I can buy that, IF it is actually said somewhere. Is it? I know we know the computer finished the job on its own after his death over the next near-two decades, but is their any evidence that says that while he was alive he didn't do anything? I don't even know how we could know that, since Gero himself never talks about Cell.

The basics of Desire's theory (minus extraneous 'extra' timelines) are this:

TL1 - Original Timeline - Trunks is killed by Cell, Cell goes back.
TL2 - Unseen Timeline - Made by TL1 Trunks.
TL3 - Lazy Cell Timeline - Made by TL1 Cell. IDENTICLE to TL1 with the exception of a Cell from the future. Trunks kills Cell after returning from TL4.
TL4 - Series Timeline - Made by TL3 Trunks. TL1 Cell surfaces here.

In that case, I would just have to say that the Lazy Cell timeline probably doesn't exist (unless I'm not understanding it properly). A quick rundown of my own theory, then, would be that TL1 Cell causes the series timeline, because he does nothing to alter the course of history until emerging during then-TL1 Trunks' second visit. That's what I meant about the paradox. Since the future isn't affected by the past, TL1 Trunks still went forward to his own timeline, creating the split when he himself slew Cell. Cell's alteration was basically to travel from the Original Timeline into the Unseen Timeline and make it into the Series Timeline, since the Unseen Timeline is really just a Cell-free version of the so-called "Android Saga." Again, sorry if that seems off. I'm in bed with a fever, so quantum physics is a bit that seems to make the most sense to me.

[Xyex]

Huh? Wasn't that Cell the Cell that was growing under ground (which Trunks and Kuririn destroy in the series timeline)? Both of the future Trunk's timelines (including the unseen guy) were unaffected by any time travel, weren't they?

No, no. Not in Desire's theory. With his Lazy Cell theory the Cell in TL1 kills Trunks, travels back in time, and creates TL3. But then he never does anything (at all or that's noticed) so TL3 proceeds on exactly the same as TL1. Trunks from this timeline then goes back and creates TL4. Now, in TL4, Cell decides this time that he's going to surface (or do stuff that gets noticed) and this is the series. So when the Trunks we see goes home he returns to TL3 and kills the Cell of that time (not the one from TL1 that now exists in TL3 AND TL4 because of TL3 Trunks going back).

I can buy that, IF it is actually said somewhere. Is it? I know we know the computer finished the job on its own after his death over the next near-two decades, but is their any evidence that says that while he was alive he didn't do anything? I don't even know how we could know that, since Gero himself never talks about Cell.

Gero and Cell both make statements that, together, add up to what I said. Gero comments that he stopped monitoring after they left for Namek. He doesn't recognize Trunks, either, who he would if he'd been watching. And then Cell comments that Gero realized he'd take too long so he left his computer in charge and then went to work on other models.

A quick rundown of my own theory, then, would be that TL1 Cell causes the series timeline, because he does nothing to alter the course of history until emerging during then-TL1 Trunks' second visit. That's what I meant about the paradox.

I've toyed with this idea before. I like it to some degree but at the same time I'm still not entirely set on it because there are some issues.

Since the future isn't affected by the past, TL1 Trunks still went forward to his own timeline, creating the split when he himself slew Cell.

This I don't consider possible, though. The Trunks who killed Cell was different than the one that was killed by Cell. Different powers and knowledge. The Knowledge would lead to different actions which would diverge from what the original Trunks did, even right from the start. So to me the split for that had to be when Trunks entered the timeline.

[Onikage725]

Entered which timeline? If you mean by returning to the future, that is more or less what I meant. I basically don't see a seperate Trunks from, say, the History of Trunks, until Cell splinters the Unseen Timeline into the main series. Basically, the minute Cell devourers a city and challenges Piccolo, he alters the events of the Unseen Timeline. So now we have two Trunks'. Trunks then splinters his own timeline by displaying greater knowledge and power (as well as being two years older than he should have been) and by taking down Cell.

TL1- Original - 17 and 18 (arguably 19 and 20, 16 possible but doubtful) emerge, slay Z Senshi aside from Gohan. Gohan goes SSJ, trains Trunks, dies in combat. Trunks goes SSJ (using anime timeline), fails to destroy 17 and 18, travels back in time to save Goku. Travels back once more to help fight past versions of 17 and 18. Is killed by Cell, who jacks his machine.
TL2- Unseen Timeline - The version of the past described above, in which Trunks assists with 17 and 18, but Cell doesn't appear. This timeline's Cell is presumably destroyed by Trunks and Kuririn when they destroy Gero's lab.
TL3- Main Series - The above timeline as altered by Future Cell from TL1's emergence during TL1 Trunks' second trip.
TL4- Alternate Future - The split caused in the future due to Trunks' Cell-caused growth while in the past.

So, I apologize for being snippy earlier and if I'm missing points here (still sick, head hurts, bleh). But does that work, or can you see anything wrong there?

EDIT: Heh, looking back at page one, I guess my theory is more or less in line with Xyex's. I swear I wasn't looking at that when I wrote this. So I guess what I need to do is wrap my head around Desire's. Fucking time travel.

[caejones]

I keep getting confused and don't see where any of the problems are coming up...
... Are we using consistent labeling of each timeline? TL# and Cell# all over the place is hard to follow...
... Not that I'm contributing to the discussion. I'm just trying to keep up and lose track of things like

No, no. Not in Desire's theory. With his Lazy Cell theory the Cell in TL1 kills Trunks, travels back in time, and creates TL3. But then he never does anything
(at all or that's noticed) so TL3 proceeds on exactly the same as TL1. Trunks from this timeline then goes back and creates TL4. Now, in TL4, Cell decides
this time that he's going to surface (or do stuff that gets noticed) and this is the series. So when the Trunks we see goes home he returns to TL3 and
kills the Cell of that time (not the one from TL1 that now exists in TL3 AND TL4 because of TL3 Trunks going back).

Are we using the same numbering as Onikage's list, here? (Essentially, the order in which the timelines were created?). I think that's what I get from the jumps mentioned... (though now I'm confused as to TL2... oh, right... TL1 Trunks created that one before the Cell stuff ... ).

Gaaah!

*glues head back together*

So, uh, is the problem figuring out where the timeline Super Surviver Trunks goes to came from?

[Onikage725]

Ah you know what? I think for my own theory, I would borrow a note from Desire and split the Unseen Timeline into two. Basically, in one timeline Trunks saves Goku and warns everyone. This would then progress... who knows how. Probably with Goku surviving the heart attack and hopefully defeating 17 and 18. Or maybe they were the non-bloodlust types, everyone makes peace, and Kuririn gets lucky. Or maybe the climatic final battle is Goku vs 16. Cell either is destroyed with Gero's lab (someone else going with Kuririn) or rises up later in a world full of relatively strong Z Senshi and is destroyed. or hell, maybe he isn't, but there is no time machine built. Whatever.

Then, upon Trunks' second trip, we get the Unseen Timeline where Trunks assists with 17 and 18's destruction.

Etc, etc.

[Coola Yagami]

You know what really sucks...? The timeline where Cell killed Trunks and left to wreak havoc elsewhere... I mean, think of poor Bulma. She lost all her friends and family, and now she also lost her only son??? Stuck in a wasteland of a timeline? The only benefit she has is that at least the androids were killed off and Cell never came back.

I wonder how Trunks felt knowing another timeline version of himself was killed off...

[SSj_Rambo]

...I mean, think of poor Bulma. She lost all her friends and family, and now she also lost her only son??? Stuck in a wasteland of a timeline?

For her own sake I hope she flew over to New Namek and wished everyone back, it would fix everything. I sleep well at night pretending that's what she did.

[Xyex]

...I mean, think of poor Bulma. She lost all her friends and family, and now she also lost her only son??? Stuck in a wasteland of a timeline?

For her own sake I hope she flew over to New Namek and wished everyone back, it would fix everything. I sleep well at night pretending that's what she did.

She doesn't know where New Namek is and has no way of locating it. Goku had to teleport to King Kai's to find it.

[Coola Yagami]

So poor alt-timeline Bulma started life as a cheery 16-year old lookin for dragonballs and adventure... and ended with all her friends and family and only son dead in a barren wasteland of a planet.....

[Terra-jin]

Yeah, it's really sad... the last Saiyans, who overcame such odds to survive and build a new existence on Earth, gone. It's really a wasteland of a timeline. If Trunks knew this, I can imagine that he feels sorry for alternate Future Bulma. However, if he fixes up Cell's old time-machine, it would be able to travel to that timeline, which means that Trunks can visit Bulma to bring her some comfort in knowing that there's peace somewhere, at least...

[SSj_Rambo]

...I mean, think of poor Bulma. She lost all her friends and family, and now she also lost her only son??? Stuck in a wasteland of a timeline?

For her own sake I hope she flew over to New Namek and wished everyone back, it would fix everything. I sleep well at night pretending that's what she did.

She doesn't know where New Namek is and has no way of locating it. Goku had to teleport to King Kai's to find it.

Goku has displayed the ability to communicate with the living telepathically after he is dead (like how he did after sacrificing himself to Cell) and I'm sure he was watching the earth the whole time he was dead and also would have been able to tell King Kiao to communicate with Bulma and tell her where New Namek was. I'm sure everyone has a different theory on what happened in this time line and I am just saying that finding New Namek was possible for Bulma, so don't go into bashing mode.

[Xyex]

Goku has displayed the ability to communicate with the living telepathically after he is dead (like how he did after sacrificing himself to Cell) and I'm sure he was watching the earth the whole time he was dead and also would have been able to tell King Kiao to communicate with Bulma and tell her where New Namek was. I'm sure everyone has a different theory on what happened in this time line and I am just saying that finding New Namek was possible for Bulma, so don't go into bashing mode.

No, it's not. Not in the slightest. Why do people always asume that the Kais are going to just drop everything to give the Earth a hand? They wont. Goku can beg and plead with King Kai all he wants to help out or let him help in some way and it'll not happen. The Kais do not interfere in mortal affairs. Never have.

King Kai trained a dead Goku who just happened to have a way back to Earth to battle the Saiyans. But while he was trained with the intent to fight the Saiyans that was only because he had a pre arranged means of getting back.

King Kai only revealed the location of Namek to Goku because Goku was his pupil. The fact that Goku was alive at the time is an odd and abnormal occurance. Most students of the Kais don't come back to life. This little bit of 'help' is only a slight bending of the rules.

During the Freeza battle King Kai only suggested a wish to individuals already intending to make a very similar wish as at was. And in this case his communication was with Kami who, himself, is part of the 'godly order' and thus not, exactly, a mortal. Another minor bending of the rules.

If you'll notice, in the 20+ years that the Androids were running around on the Earth the Kais never did anything. Goku didn't come back for a day, Bulma and Trunks weren't informed of New Namek's location, nothing. Because this was an entirely mortal affair. None of King Kai's students were involved, no Guardians, and no universal threats (ala Majin Buu).

So then, why would they intervene after the Androids are gone? Just because Bulma's depressed? What about the countless BILLIONS of people on other worlds all over the universe in similar situations? People who've lost everyone and everything? The Androids aren't unique. The situation has occured countless times, especially when Freeza was in power with his planet clearing operations going on.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree that Kaio didnt' do anything to help against the Androids because they were an threats to the planet earth, but could he have really done anyway? None of the warriors would've been able to be wished back after a certain amount of time, the Androids were far more powerful Goku ever was, so if he came to earth for a day, no difference would've been made.

To be honest, Kaio only really helped Goku against the Saiyans, and offered no help against Freeza, because he told everyone to not oppose him. Kaio also wouldn't have a good understanding of the Androids, because they have no chi for him to sense, so he wouldn't know how to attack the problem at all.