Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

From Alakazam [Kanzenshuu]...

I'll just be paraphrasing most things. Basically, what I think is important/interesting enough.

Shigeru Nakahara reprises his role as #17 (apparently, he was married to Zen'ou's Satomi Koorogi ).

I think it says #18 is the youngest sibling (did we knew this already?) but the kanji is really small so I can't be sure.

The article describes #17: an artificial human created by Gero to kill Goku but ended up killing his creator. Around 10 years have passed since then (timeline guys, where does this put Super at?). Dende will tell Goku #17 is in a big southern island and he'll be shown riding a jeep and watching the sunset. He's now calmer than before and a gentleman (most likely just a way of saying he's a nice guy now). Is #17 married and with a family now?

Goku and #17 know eachother's face and name (ok, magazine, if you say so) but this is the first time they meet. Will #17 remain composed when Goku comes scouting him? Yeah, pretty sure he will.


Producer Hiroyuki Sakurada's interview:

- What is #17's appeal?
He's cool, handsome and has a youthful heart. Even when trying to kill Goku, he acted like it was a game.

- In what way is #17 a gentleman?
He's a gentleman towards Nature all around. Since, unlike humans, plants and animals' needs are very simple, he just wants to live in peace surrounded by that natural order of things. His values are peculiar, so he won't be giving his ok to Goku that easily because he's the kind of guy that, even if told the Earth will get destroyed, he'd probably think "Well, that's just the way things are". Better yet, I have the feeling he'd just say "so what?" if he found out the truth.

- If so, what reason do you think he'd have were he to accept to participate?
He'd think it would be fun. But he probably wouldn't accept if it wasn't Goku scouting him.

- As a fan, I'm looking forward to Goku and #17's first battle.
#17 didn't have many fights in the original story nor in the anime up until now. Apparently, Akira Toriyama didn't have the opportunity to display his strengthbut he is also giving his approval, saying #17 has great potential.

viewtopic.php?p=1289806#p1289806

https://mantan-web.jp/article/20170414d ... 2000c.html

Notice that it says Toriyama gave TOEI his approval of 17's strength.Hence why the manga outright says that 17 is just as strong as Goku and Vegeta.

People can deny the facts that 17 is blue level all they want. They will never be able to get rid of the truth.

[ZombieVito]

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kefla, that's it.

17 and Dyspo with his speed are CSSB tier. Just on the low end of it.

[Aizamasu]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kefla, that's it.

17 and Dyspo with his speed are CSSB tier. Just on the low end of it.

17 is weaker than Kefla who is even with Gohan who is weaker than CSSB Goku. So how can 17 be CSSB tier when he is weaker than Gohan who is weaker than Goku? CSSB Vegeta also beat Dyspo with one hit so I have a hard time believing that Dyspo is CSSB tier.

[ZombieVito]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kefla, that's it.

17 and Dyspo with his speed are CSSB tier. Just on the low end of it.

17 is weaker than Kefla who is even with Gohan who is weaker than CSSB Goku. So how can 17 be CSSB tier when he is weaker than Gohan who is weaker than Goku? CSSB Vegeta also beat Dyspo with one hit so I have a hard time believing that Dyspo is CSSB tier.

Because they are on the lower end of the tier. Seriously why is this so hard to understand?

Was Vegeta pre Majin boost not SS2 tier in the Boo arc because he was weaker than Goku?

[Aizamasu]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kefla, that's it.

17 and Dyspo with his speed are CSSB tier. Just on the low end of it.

17 is weaker than Kefla who is even with Gohan who is weaker than CSSB Goku. So how can 17 be CSSB tier when he is weaker than Gohan who is weaker than Goku? CSSB Vegeta also beat Dyspo with one hit so I have a hard time believing that Dyspo is CSSB tier.

Because they are on the lower end of the tier. Seriously why is this so hard to understand?

Was Vegeta pre Majin boost not SS2 tier in the Boo arc because he was weaker than Goku?

I guess it just depends on your definition of CSSB tier. I don’t think CSSB Vegeta and Dyspo are on the same tier since Vegeta can oneshot Dyspo. Or maybe it’s because I’ve never really believed in the Super saiyan multipliers since they have never been used in the manga so I don’t think the jumps in power levels between the different forms are so huge. But do you think that 17 could beat Merged Zamasu? Because if 17 is CSSB tier he should be the same level as Merged Zamasu.

And I don’t think the difference in strenght between SS2 Goku and Vegeta was as large as CSSB Goku and Gohan since Goku easily beat Saganbo who easily beat Gohan even though Gohan had also gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. And 17 was weaker than Gohan so he should be much weaker than Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.


17 is weaker than Kefla who is even with Gohan who is weaker than CSSB Goku. So how can 17 be CSSB tier when he is weaker than Gohan who is weaker than Goku? CSSB Vegeta also beat Dyspo with one hit so I have a hard time believing that Dyspo is CSSB tier.

Because they are on the lower end of the tier. Seriously why is this so hard to understand?

Was Vegeta pre Majin boost not SS2 tier in the Boo arc because he was weaker than Goku?

I guess it just depends on your definition of CSSB tier. I don’t think CSSB Vegeta and Dyspo are on the same tier since Vegeta can oneshot Dyspo. Or maybe it’s because I’ve never really believed in the Super saiyan multipliers since they have never been used in the manga so I don’t think the jumps in power levels between the different forms are so huge. But do you think that 17 could beat Merged Zamasu? Because if 17 is CSSB tier he should be the same level as Merged Zamasu.

And I don’t think the difference in strenght between SS2 Goku and Vegeta was as large as CSSB Goku and Gohan since Goku easily beat Saganbo who easily beat Gohan even though Gohan had also gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. And 17 was weaker than Gohan so he should be much weaker than Goku.

Fused Zamasu will destroy 17! The only reason why Goku was able to even injure Fused Zamasu was the Hakai technique that he learned while watching Beerus and which was potent enough to seemingly pulverize Zamasu. 17 has no such technique so he's completely helpless here.

[ZombieVito]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.


17 is weaker than Kefla who is even with Gohan who is weaker than CSSB Goku. So how can 17 be CSSB tier when he is weaker than Gohan who is weaker than Goku? CSSB Vegeta also beat Dyspo with one hit so I have a hard time believing that Dyspo is CSSB tier.

Because they are on the lower end of the tier. Seriously why is this so hard to understand?

Was Vegeta pre Majin boost not SS2 tier in the Boo arc because he was weaker than Goku?

I guess it just depends on your definition of CSSB tier. I don’t think CSSB Vegeta and Dyspo are on the same tier since Vegeta can oneshot Dyspo. Or maybe it’s because I’ve never really believed in the Super saiyan multipliers since they have never been used in the manga so I don’t think the jumps in power levels between the different forms are so huge. But do you think that 17 could beat Merged Zamasu? Because if 17 is CSSB tier he should be the same level as Merged Zamasu.

And I don’t think the difference in strenght between SS2 Goku and Vegeta was as large as CSSB Goku and Gohan since Goku easily beat Saganbo who easily beat Gohan even though Gohan had also gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. And 17 was weaker than Gohan so he should be much weaker than Goku.

Dyspo is only able to match a CSSB character thanks to his speed. Strength wise he gets pulverized.

If Zamasu wasn't immortal then yes, 17 should be able to do it if he's careful since he has infinite enegry.

[dragonball0900]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

Yeah, basically this.

Just because Toriyama said 17 has great potential doesn't mean he is supposed to be Blue tier in both mediums. 17 being above SSJ3 already shows how big 17's potential is.

We also know that 17 trained in the anime, while he didn't train in the manga. It's logical to assume that Manga 17 therefore should be far weaker than his anime counterpart, but would still be strong enough to show his big potential.

[Sikat]

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kafla, that's it.

Not really. I wouldn’t consider Dyspo a Blue-tier fighter like Toppo, Gohan, Freeza, etc, at all.

Here are his feats (or anti-feats):

- Overwhelmed SS2 Goku with his speed, yet also thought SS2 Goku was Goku at his max
- Got tossed aside with one blow by SSB Vegeta as he went to fight Toppo
- Defeated SS1 Cabbe
- Got restrained by SS1 Caulifla
- Got tossed aside by Kafla
- Fought Android 17 to a standstill

Nothing at all suggests he’s a greater than SSG tier fighter, and instead it looks more like he’s SS3 tier fighter at best.
Which isn’t to say he or 17 are weak, SS3 is still greater than the majority.. just nowhere near the top.

[ZombieVito]

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kafla, that's it.

Not really. I wouldn’t consider Dyspo a Blue-tier fighter like Toppo, Gohan, Freeza, etc, at all.

Here are his feats (or anti-feats):

- Overwhelmed SS2 Goku with his speed, yet also thought SS2 Goku was Goku at his max
- Got tossed aside with one blow by SSB Vegeta as he went to fight Toppo
- Defeated SS1 Cabbe
- Got restrained by SS1 Caulifla
- Got tossed aside by Kafla
- Fought Android 17 to a standstill

Nothing at all suggests he’s a greater than SSG tier fighter, and instead it looks more like he’s SS3 tier fighter at best.
Which isn’t to say he or 17 are weak, SS3 is still greater than the majority.. just nowhere near the top.

Dyspo is only able to match Blue tier thanks to his speed. Physically he is weak.

[Thani]

I thought Dyspo in the manga wasn't stated to be particularly fast, only stronger than the rest of the Pride Troopers sans Toppo and Jiren.

[Miracles]

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

Doesn’t that only say that 17 has great potential? Toriyama approved 17’s strenght in the anime but that doesn’t have anything to do with 17’s strenght in the manga. Toriyama also clearly approved 17’s strenght to be the level that it is in the manga which also shows he has great potential since he is stronger than SS3 Goku.

Yeah, basically this.

Just because Toriyama said 17 has great potential doesn't mean he is supposed to be Blue tier in both mediums. 17 being above SSJ3 already shows how big 17's potential is.

We also know that 17 trained in the anime, while he didn't train in the manga. It's logical to assume that Manga 17 therefore should be far weaker than his anime counterpart, but would still be strong enough to show his big potential.

If you read the interview carefully. The producer is talking about the upcoming strength display of 17 in his fight with Goku. Which Toriyama himself, "gave his approval" for. So 17 fighting Blue Goku evenly is OK'D by the creator himself. The manga acquiesces, having 17 be "just about as strong" as Goku and Vegeta.

[Sikat]

The only thing 17 vs Dyspo proves is that 17 is weaker than Kafla, that's it.

Not really. I wouldn’t consider Dyspo a Blue-tier fighter like Toppo, Gohan, Freeza, etc, at all.

Here are his feats (or anti-feats):

- Overwhelmed SS2 Goku with his speed, yet also thought SS2 Goku was Goku at his max
- Got tossed aside with one blow by SSB Vegeta as he went to fight Toppo
- Defeated SS1 Cabbe
- Got restrained by SS1 Caulifla
- Got tossed aside by Kafla
- Fought Android 17 to a standstill

Nothing at all suggests he’s a greater than SSG tier fighter, and instead it looks more like he’s SS3 tier fighter at best.
Which isn’t to say he or 17 are weak, SS3 is still greater than the majority.. just nowhere near the top.

Dyspo is only able to match Blue tier thanks to his speed. Physically he is weak.

Nothing really suggests that.

The manga shows the following:

Toppo (a SSB-tier fighter) was able to block SSB Vegeta’s attack, yet Dyspo (not a SSB-tier fighter) couldn’t react and was sent flying with one blow.



We also have the fact that he was fodderized by Kafla.

If his speeds allowed for him to contend with SSB tier fighters, then neither of these two scenarios would have happened and he would have put up a better fight.

[Thani]

Not really. I wouldn’t consider Dyspo a Blue-tier fighter like Toppo, Gohan, Freeza, etc, at all.

Here are his feats (or anti-feats):

- Overwhelmed SS2 Goku with his speed, yet also thought SS2 Goku was Goku at his max
- Got tossed aside with one blow by SSB Vegeta as he went to fight Toppo
- Defeated SS1 Cabbe
- Got restrained by SS1 Caulifla
- Got tossed aside by Kafla
- Fought Android 17 to a standstill

Nothing at all suggests he’s a greater than SSG tier fighter, and instead it looks more like he’s SS3 tier fighter at best.
Which isn’t to say he or 17 are weak, SS3 is still greater than the majority.. just nowhere near the top.

Dyspo is only able to match Blue tier thanks to his speed. Physically he is weak.

Nothing really suggests that.

The manga shows the following:

Toppo (a SSB-tier fighter) was able to block SSB Vegeta’s attack, yet Dyspo (not a SSB-tier fighter) couldn’t react and was sent flying with one blow.



We also have the fact that he was fodderized by Kafla.

If his speeds allowed for him to contend with SSB tier fighters, then neither of these two scenarios would have happened and he would have put up a better fight.

Not even a fight would be needed, just him managing to dodge their attacks at least once or twice.

[ZombieVito]

Dyspo is only able to match Blue tier thanks to his speed. Physically he is weak.

Nothing really suggests that.

The manga shows the following:

Toppo (a SSB-tier fighter) was able to block SSB Vegeta’s attack, yet Dyspo (not a SSB-tier fighter) couldn’t react and was sent flying with one blow.



We also have the fact that he was fodderized by Kafla.

If his speeds allowed for him to contend with SSB tier fighters, then neither of these two scenarios would have happened and he would have put up a better fight.

Not even a fight would be needed, just him managing to dodge their attacks at least once or twice.

Future Zamasu dodge SSB Goku's attacks in the manga.

Dyspo was clearly taken by surprise. 17 is almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he couldn't one shot Dyspo so his speed is the real deal.

[Sikat]

Not even a fight would be needed, just him managing to dodge their attacks at least once or twice.

Yeah, but instead Dyspo doesn’t even react or block because SSB is just that much better than him.

Dyspo was clearly taken by surprise.

As was Toppo, and he managed to block SSB Vegeta’s attack. Not to mention Kale took both Toppo/Vegeta by surprise, yet both of them managed to block her attack.

So this excuse doesn’t really hold weight. If Dyspo was SSB-tier he would have been able to react, especially with his speed which you claim makes him contend with SSB-tier fighters.

17 is almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he couldn't one shot Dyspo so his speed is the real deal.

17 is all scratched up after his stalemate with Dyspo, so your theory of Dyspo doing nothing but dodging is unfounded. They are equals, and both far weaker than SSB.

If you have something that points to Dyspo being anywhere near SSB tier feel free to post it.

[dragonball0900]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that 17 trained in the anime (he said so to Goku), while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc). Obviously 17 showed his potential more in the anime because of that handicap. In the manga, without even training, being able to surpass SSJ3 level is already a big feat that shows 17's potential.

Plus just because Toriyama approved something for the anime doesn't mean the same case should apply for the manga since the manga clearly shows 17 to be far below SSB, it's a whole different story from the anime here. And I'm not even using 17 vs SSJ3 Goku's feat here (as I believe 17 was not doing his all against SSJ3 Goku). Him being CSSB level contradicts what happens in the ToP clearly.

[Yuji]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that 17 trained in the anime (he said so to Goku), while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc). Obviously 17 showed his potential more in the anime because of that handicap. In the manga, without even training, being able to surpass SSJ3 level is already a big feat that shows 17's potential.

Plus just because Toriyama approved something for the anime doesn't mean the same case should apply for the manga since the manga clearly shows 17 to be far below SSB, it's a whole different story from the anime here. And I'm not even using 17 vs SSJ3 Goku's feat here (as I believe 17 was not doing his all against SSJ3 Goku). Him being CSSB level contradicts what happens in the ToP clearly.

The manga has implied in supplementary bonus pages that #17 has improved by sparring with the Cell Jrs.

[dragonball0900]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that 17 trained in the anime (he said so to Goku), while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc). Obviously 17 showed his potential more in the anime because of that handicap. In the manga, without even training, being able to surpass SSJ3 level is already a big feat that shows 17's potential.

Plus just because Toriyama approved something for the anime doesn't mean the same case should apply for the manga since the manga clearly shows 17 to be far below SSB, it's a whole different story from the anime here. And I'm not even using 17 vs SSJ3 Goku's feat here (as I believe 17 was not doing his all against SSJ3 Goku). Him being CSSB level contradicts what happens in the ToP clearly.

The manga has implied in supplementary bonus pages that #17 has improved by sparring with the Cell Jrs.

He only tamed the Cell Jrs, he didn't spar with them regularly for years until the ToP.

[Yuji]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that 17 trained in the anime (he said so to Goku), while in the manga he didn't (stated quite a few times during the arc). Obviously 17 showed his potential more in the anime because of that handicap. In the manga, without even training, being able to surpass SSJ3 level is already a big feat that shows 17's potential.

Plus just because Toriyama approved something for the anime doesn't mean the same case should apply for the manga since the manga clearly shows 17 to be far below SSB, it's a whole different story from the anime here. And I'm not even using 17 vs SSJ3 Goku's feat here (as I believe 17 was not doing his all against SSJ3 Goku). Him being CSSB level contradicts what happens in the ToP clearly.

The manga has implied in supplementary bonus pages that #17 has improved by sparring with the Cell Jrs.

He only tamed the Cell Jrs, he didn't spar with them regularly for years until the ToP.

I assume taming them wouldn't be a "one and done" process. He likely wouldn't be strong enough at first and would only be able to tame them all in conjunction after a repeated number of tries, no? At leas the implication is that part of his strength is due to being in close proximity to the Cell Jrs.