"Live Action Dragon Ball Z Movie"

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, the Nolan trilogy is so boring IMO. What makes the Burton films so much more fun is how we see what makes Bruce tick in how he combats and relates to his enemies.

Also, Selina being so goddamned awesome in Batman Returns really helps.

The set designs and color grading are also so fucking bonkers. Love them!

[WittyUsername]

BB was well received by both critics and audiences and was praised specifically for focusing more on what makes Batman tick, while the Tim Burton films had him play second fiddle to the villains. You can say the movie isn’t for you, but it’s pretty distinct from the films that came before.

It’s not about Begins being distinct it’s about it covering ground that didn’t need to be covered.

I don’t care about it’s critical appraisal. Critics acting like they couldn’t figure out Batman was traumatized from his parents murder by watching Batman 89 or Batman Forever (which also had a way more interesting angle for Batman’s origin before the final product cut it to shreds! ) or the 90s cartoon or that one Super Friends episode….that’s on them.


Also Batman is way less interesting than his villains so there’s that.

If you personally don’t care for the ground the movie covered, that’s fine. Everyone has their own opinions. I just thought it was weird how you seemed to imply that it was some kind of failure that people didn’t care for, even though general audiences responded well to it, and it managed to become a sleeper hit that did well on DVD. People would not have been as hyped as they were for TDK if they didn’t like BB.

To steer things back to Dragon Ball, one other thing I’ll say is that I don’t think it’s entirely fair to single out FUNimation for treating everything before the Saiyans as a prequel. Toei and Bandai do that as well.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, the Nolan trilogy is so boring IMO. What makes the Burton films so much more fun is how we see what makes Bruce tick in how he combats and relates to his enemies.

Yes. I love that the villains in Returns are all dark mirror images of Batman. The wealthy philanthropist with a dark secret, the orphan, and the vigilante with a dual identity.

Batman 89 isn’t great to me either. It’s the poster child for the sum of it’s parts are better than the whole but Batman Returns, in a sea of interchangeable and homogeneous super hero flicks Batman Returns is still incredibly unique.

Also, Selina being so goddamned awesome in Batman Returns really helps.

The set designs and color grading are also so fucking bonkers. Love them!

Also this. Other than, maybe, Andrea Beaumont from Mask of the Phantom, Selina is bar none the most interesting leading lady in a Batman film.

. I just thought it was weird how you seemed to imply that it was some kind of failure that people didn’t care for, even though general audiences responded well to it, and it managed to become a sleeper hit that did well on DVD.

I said it was tedious. I implied no such thing about it being some kind of audience failure and I’m at a loss of how you could even make a reach that bad.

[jjgp1112]

To steer things back to Dragon Ball, one other thing I’ll say is that I don’t think it’s entirely fair to single out FUNimation for treating everything before the Saiyans as a prequel. Toei and Bandai do that as well.

I agree; I pointed out as much in another thread recently. But that material did become popular on its own, it just the later material came to define the series much more prominently.

[ABED]

Both series has them, but Nolan at least tells compelling stories for 2 out of 3 of them. It's clear that Burton has no interest in the hero. I say this as someone who loves the first Batman.

I don't mind the exposition in Begins as generally speaking, Nolan is able to make it work dramatically.

Nolan and Burton were good choices for Batman but neither of their aesthetics are good for DB.

Yes. I love that the villains in Returns are all dark mirror images of Batman. The wealthy philanthropist with a dark secret, the orphan, and the vigilante with a dual identity.

Batman 89 isn’t great to me either. It’s the poster child for the sum of it’s parts are better than the whole but Batman Returns, in a sea of interchangeable and homogeneous super hero flicks Batman Returns is still incredibly unique.

It's cliche to make them dark mirrors of the hero. What makes it work is when it's done well and Burton isn't talented enough of a storyteller to do it well. And I'll take a homogeneous superhero flick with its heart in the right place over that god awful Returns. Truly goddamn horrible. It's about the story, not the artist.

Anyway, I don't know it anyone has brought this up, but it would be smart of any adapter that if they did start with DB, not make the film under the DBZ banner. That way it doesn't build those expectations into the film and marketing.

[WittyUsername]

I said it was tedious. I implied no such thing about it being some kind of audience failure and I’m at a loss of how you could even make a reach that bad.

Your exact quote was “ It’s why Batman Begins was so tedious because even in 2005 people knew of Batman’s dead parents.” That made it sound like you were saying that people in general found the ground the movie covered to be tedious, rather than you personally.

Anyway, I don’t want to steer this thread off the topic of Dragon Ball, so that’s the last I’ll say on that.

[MasenkoHA]

To steer things back to Dragon Ball, one other thing I’ll say is that I don’t think it’s entirely fair to single out FUNimation for treating everything before the Saiyans as a prequel. Toei and Bandai do that as well.

I agree; I pointed out as much in another thread recently. But that material did become popular on its own, it just the later material came to define the series much more prominently.

And I’m going to add even with most Dragon Ball fans and Toei and Bandai not caring about Dragon Ball until it got sponsored by the letter Z it doesn’t change that Dragon Ball is still part of Z. It’s viewers own decision to skip straight to Z. (I mean it’s been their own decision since 2003 and beyond)


But to start with a live action movie adaptation right at the Saiyan saga? Yeah that’s bad.

I said it was tedious. I implied no such thing about it being some kind of audience failure and I’m at a loss of how you could even make a reach that bad.

Your exact quote was “ It’s why Batman Begins was so tedious because even in 2005 people knew of Batman’s dead parents.” That made it sound like you were saying that people in general found the ground the movie covered to be tedious, rather than you personally.

I said it was tedious to me and explained why it was tedious.

I didn’t say “Audiences found Begins tedious” me calling it tedious and then explaining why should be pretty straightforward as to why it was my opinion?

[ABED]

DB is a story about growth. Starting when Goku is already a champion is not the best choice.

[WittyUsername]

Anyway, I don't know it anyone has brought this up, but it would be smart of any adapter that if they did start with DB, not make the film under the DBZ banner. That way it doesn't build those expectations into the film and marketing.

I think Dragon Ball is at the point where it doesn’t need the Z label to do well in places like the United States. Actually, to Fox’s credit, they didn’t market DBE under the DBZ banner.

I said it was tedious to me and explained why it was tedious. I didn’t say “Audiences found Begins tedious” me calling it tedious and then explaining why should be pretty straightforward as to why it was my opinion?

It’s fine. You don’t need to keep explaining. I got the idea. Your initial wording just seemed weird to me.

[MasenkoHA]

Nolan and Burton were good choices for Batman but neither of their aesthetics are good for DB.

They would both be horrible choices for Dragon Ball actually. Hopefully that went without saying :p Burton peaked in the mid 90s and has long since been a parody of himself. And Nolan’s style is just really boring and generic imo. I don’t think Nolan could handle the inherent campiness in Dragon Ball. I’d rather see a director who has experience directing martial arts movies.

It's cliche to make them dark mirrors of the hero

A lot of things are cliche. It doesn’t make them bad.

Truly goddamn horrible. It's about the story, not the artist.

And to be fair Batman Returns is one of those movies I one hundred percent understand why people hate it. It’s an absolute cluster fuck from a storytelling perspective. But the movie as a whole works for me. I like the bleak atmosphere, I like how cynical and mean spirited it is. Selina Kyle is great and Pfieffer is wonderful and I like her relationship with Bruce.

But it is definitely one of those movies where when people say they hate it I can’t really say “You’re wrong because…” because their reasoning is probably correct.

Anyway, I don't know it anyone has brought this up, but it would be smart of any adapter that if they did start with DB, not make the film under the DBZ banner. That way it doesn't build those expectations into the film and marketing.

This is something else I hope would be a given but given that we’re arguing if they should start with the Saiyan arc or not….

[JulieYBM]

Returns is so good, though! Yeah, it's Batshit bonkers from beginning to end but it works, especially because of how well written Selina is. We women are brow-beaten our whole lives by men but one day we finally rise up and take back our power after our last piece of dignity has been stolen from us. Max Shreck pushing Selina put the window is a rape moment. It's filthy and disgusting and humiliating. To see Catwoman emerge from it and act as a reclamation of power from men is incredibly powerful stuff. There's also a bit of a bisexual trans allegory there. Selina accepting herself as a woman and also having to struggle with her attraction to a man--Bruce--is something I get very much considering how I realized I was bi and trans in the same weekend. Catwoman represents a sexual awakening and acceptance and as a late-twenties woman who learned to accept herself seeing that happen on screen os immensely rewarding. Batman Returns is in nearly every respect a film that no modern Hollywood director would or can make again.

Anyway, yeah, I'd probably start a new Dragon Ball film at the origin and go from there.

[LoganForkHands73]

Just to chip in to join the Batman Returns defence brigade. The performances, the costuming, the atmosphere, ughhh... all so good. I would probably prefer Christian Bale in any other role, but Keaton simply blows him out of the water as Bruce Wayne. I honestly think Bale was badly miscast. And Pfeiffer's Catwoman is just... peerless, as Julie summarised (plus, the wild frizzy blonde look Selina rocks towards the end... ) Can't ignore DeVito's Penguin either. That one-liner he gives summarises Bruce's relationship with his Rogues better than any other: "You're just jealous, because I'm a real freak and you have to wear a mask."

Nolan's trilogy is rightfully iconic but TDK especially is pure "straight/white/middle-class amateur film buff starter pack" material, at this point. The sheer amount of incessant acclaim is enough to make anyone sick of them.

Anyway, I agree with the consensus that neither Burton or Nolan would cut it for a live-action DB movie. I don't think the prism of Western Hollywood directors is even worth considering, in all honesty. Only the Far East could conceivably do it justice (not just Japan).

[ABED]

Selina is the only good part of the movie. The rest is terrible. I'm gonna say that I disagree vehemently about the great set design. It feels like it was filmed in a cramped studio because it was. It doesn't have enough charm to get by. It's hollow and dumb and I learn more about Burton's sexual fetishes than I do about the characters. Being an allegory doesn't make it deep or good. I'm glad they don't make movies like this anymore because superhero movies should be fun just like DB should be fun.

Whoever would direct would need to make Toriyama's story. The more I watch the more familiar I get with "voice". Peter Jackson's voice is very apparent in the LOTR trilogy and while I like those movies a lot, those moments stick out a lot and not for a good reason.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone suggest that either Tim Burton or Christopher Nolan should direct a Dragon Ball movie. Were those ever popular fan casts?

[JulieYBM]

Literally zero point in only copying Toriyama's voice. I want to enjoy the humans making the film, not get some robotic MCU/Nolan bullshit.

Batman Returns is something a Dragon Ball film can and should look to for inspiration. It's an ode to set design, to German Expressionism, to creepiness, to sexuality, to eroticism and to the love of acting and music.

Worse part of the film is that fucking Bat suit that nobody can move in.

Goddamn, I love rewatching the scene where Selina makes her costume. Still scares the shit out of me.

[WittyUsername]

Now that I think about it, since this thread keeps bringing up people who have directed superhero movies, I’m a bit surprised that no one has suggested James Wan.

Also, how has Guillermo Del Toro never been a popular fan cast?

[MasenkoHA]

Literally zero point in only copying Toriyama's voice. I want to enjoy the humans making the film, not get some robotic MCU/Nolan bullshit.

I definitely don’t want it to be another generic super hero film. But I would rather it lean toward the kitschy kung fu ness.

Batman Returns is something a Dragon Ball film can and should look to for inspiration. It's an ode to set design, to German Expressionism, to creepiness, to sexuality, to eroticism and to the love of acting and music.

I will say as much as people bitch about Batman Returns not being accurate or faithful the source material lends itself to all that. It’s a valid take on the characters world. I don’t think Dragon Ball lends itself to that.

Goddamn, I love rewatching the scene where Selina makes her costume. Still scares the shit out of me.

Oh Selina’s entire mental breakdown and transformation is fucking awesome. And that score

[JulieYBM]

Girl was fucking shattered! Like a full on breakdown as her world shattered and reformed around her. It's a big egg hatching moment, to use another trans comparison.

I really love matte paintings. There's a warmth and an organic feeling to them that I think would be right at home in a live action Dragon Ball film. I'd definitely also want to use puppets and anamitronics for Pu-erh and Oolong. Stop-motion and CG for giant foes would be awesome, too. The approach to CG in Shin Gojira would be perfect fpr the Oozaru, too!

[MyVisionity]

You know what I like from my comic book movies? To be based on the fucking comic books. Tim Burton's films have fuck all to do with Batman. As artistic and erotic and powerful or whatever else they may be, it has next to nothing to do with Batman. Batman's rogues are not "freaks" or "dark mirrors" of Batman. The villains don't have dual identities. Gotham City is not bleak and rotting or weird-looking or whatever the fuck.

There's a lot going for Batman Returns and Tim Burton's work I admit, and I get why fans love it. But let's not confuse that for making a good Batman film.

If a Dragon Ball film were made, I would hope the director's vision would align with Toriyama's work somehow without overtaking it completely. Generic would be the worst thing possible for DB, I agree.

I don't have much hope for the perverted humor though. It would be a shame to do without it, which is why I think television might be better for live action DB.

I think characters like Oolong, Puerh and maybe Chiaotzu could be CGI with motion capture or whatever.

I would also like to see full scale Oozaru battles. Imagine it on IMAX.

[WittyUsername]

I might as well ask: does anyone legitimately believe there will be another live action Dragon Ball movie, at least from Hollywood? I’m not convinced that Hollywood adaptations of manga and anime will ever truly take off (as far as I know, the closest we’ve gotten was Alita).