"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[capsulecorp]

The Bingo Moment was not Vegeta finally conquering his pride and that is an incorrect read of that moment. There was never a moment hesitation of Vegeta doing the Bingo dance because he can put his pride aside when there is a need. That doesn’t mean that he threw away his pride because he does a little dance. Gags have always been a large part of Dragon Ball and that is what that scene ultimately is not a culmination of Vegeta’s character arc.

Well I think there's a difference between "throwing away", as you said, and "conquering", as I said. Regardless, I disagree that Vegeta showing regret over his actions on Namek is more important than the bingo dance, though there's a sense in which we're just splitting hairs. Vegeta's "arc" (oh god I hate that word lmao) is about him healing from his traumatic upbringing and experiences with Frieza and the most significant and obvious aspect of this is his demented "Saiyan Pride", though he also builds relationships and connections on earth and so on, becoming more in touch with his emotions etc. His comments about Namek demonstrate this growth, though this is also demonstrated during his encounters with Buu... and, of course, he also succumbs to his pride in an especially damning way during that story.

[DiscountDabi]

So Something I wanted to do is Approximate how Powerful Granolah Was Before His Wish. We Only See A Couple Showing of his Skill and Power But The Best One For Scaling is Him Dispatching The OG-Soldiers On Goichi's Ship.

Now We Know that the OG Soldiers are All Comparable to 7-3 when he was on earth after the 2 months of training. OG7-3 On Earth Copied The Abilities Of Gohan and Piccolo before geting absorbed by Moro. We also know that he had Gotten a Powerboost from Moro like the Rest of Saganbo's Galactic Brigade. So for the sake of Scaling, lets say OG7-3 without Copying anyone's Abilities is Comparable to the Amped Saganbo on Namek who One Punched Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Spoiler:

We also Know The OG7-3 when he's not using an Ability it halts the 30 Minute Timer as we see where Piccolo's Abilities wear off after 30 minutes but he was able to use the Hedgehogs Ability to make portals even though he copied it first. Given this I think its fair to say that 7-3 would have still had the abilities of Gohan and Piccolo after 7-3 survied Moro since Moro Absorbing Him he could use those Abilities Forever (He was Seemingly Keeping him Suspended in His Body) and he didn't use any of them afterwards.

Now we get back to Goichi. We know that he copied all the Data from OG-73 into the other OG soldiers saying they All Have Equivalent Abilities to OG-73.

Spoiler:

Now. Granolah Beat them by smashing their Center Crystal which is their weakspot. However He should still scale to their speed since he shot one of them after it had gone to attack as seen here.

Spoiler:

And after this he snipes seven of them all at once, again after they attacked first.

Spoiler:

So Prewish Granolah, In terms of Reaction time and Firing Speed, Is Comparable to Gohan and Piccolo's Speed combined.

Lot more powerful than I first thought. I see how he's a trusted Bounty Hunter in this Universe. And Gas Still Took Him Down with Minimal Effort.

Spoiler:

Totally Shows me why Elec Thinks Gas could Surpass Frieza Given if it was Namek Frieza he probrably would have already.

[Yuji]

I think that's making too many assumptions. The only assumptions we can make is that all OG droids are around the same level of strength pre-copy since they were updated with 73's strength. 73 before copy was able to outspeed and get behind a weighted Piccolo, so that's his best feat when not using someone else's power.

[Nistarkail]

He cannot fly, use an aura, go beyond weapons and finger beams... Technically he was worse than Earthlings and only his sharp eye and his decent amount of ki managed him to go beyond this situation.

[MCDaveG]

Dragon Ball really is about power, strength, abilities, and above all, Goku’s and Vegeta’s evolution as fighters. Seeing their improvements and new abilities, while at the same time showing off the enemy’s abilities and power. There really is nothing more to it. If you’re looking for some kind of “deep” story, than there are countless other anime’s or show I could suggest to you. Dragon Ball ain’t the place for that. It’s about a warrior’s evolution and nothing more.

i actually completely disagree here. most of the longer dragon ball stories are about a lot more than simply "power" or "a warrior's evolution". namek for example is as much about gohan as it is goku, if not more. when people

admittedly, super has spent a lot of time on vegeta and that has probably been a mistake, since his story more or less ended after battle of gods. i enjoy super but when fans say that they feel like something is missing, maybe it's because the story has been reduced to something like "a warrior's evolution", or reduced to simply focusing on goku and vegeta... it's not true that this was always the case though.

Yeah, there is no real adventure linked to the growth and world building, really. I even like the crazy idea of pulling Goku’s tail by Kaioshin in GT.

[Thani]

My biggest complain is that the current enemies do work. They're just... Way out of time, honestly.

Moro is a dangerous wizard defeated and depowered by the Dai Kaioshin. He has no business being stronger than Majin Buu before absorbing the energy of so many planets to go beyond his prime. Instead, he starts out capable of overpowering Vegeta as a Super Saiyan God with the energy of one particularly robust planet. Said planet, mind you, being a child's play to destroy for him.

Granolah wished to be the strongest in the universe, with the dragon explicitly stating that "strongest besides the gods" was an implied limitation.

They both work as enemies showing up after Battle of Gods but before Resurrection of F, in a time frame where our characters are still getting used to the godly realm and are still pretty much powerful mortals. Even Broly would fit better in this time frame, honestly.

It honestly feels they are enemies more in line with the Z or the very early Super era than the moment in time we are now. Like Toyo wanted to make cool new enemies, but at the same time wanted to be way more grounded in the worldbuilding and lore department, at the expense of making the main characters, well, look and feel way less powerful than what they should be portrayed as by now.

[Yuji]

He cannot fly, use an aura, go beyond weapons and finger beams... Technically he was worse than Earthlings and only his sharp eye and his decent amount of ki managed him to go beyond this situation.

This is also making assumptions. Just because he never flew or spiked his aura doesn't mean he couldn't. He was/is a stealthy and crafty fighter. Him beating all the OG droids, who were updated with 73's physical capabilities, means at the very least he would also be able to contend with a weighted Piccolo.

My biggest complain is that the current enemies do work. They're just... Way out of time, honestly.

Moro is a dangerous wizard defeated and depowered by the Dai Kaioshin. He has no business being stronger than Majin Buu before absorbing the energy of so many planets to go beyond his prime. Instead, he starts out capable of overpowering Vegeta as a Super Saiyan God with the energy of one particularly robust planet. Said planet, mind you, being a child's play to destroy for him.

Granolah wished to be the strongest in the universe, with the dragon explicitly stating that "strongest besides the gods" was an implied limitation.

They both work as enemies showing up after Battle of Gods but before Resurrection of F, in a time frame where our characters are still getting used to the godly realm and are still pretty much powerful mortals. Even Broly would fit better in this time frame, honestly.

It honestly feels they are enemies more in line with the Z or the very early Super era than the moment in time we are now. Like Toyo wanted to make cool new enemies, but at the same time wanted to be way more grounded in the worldbuilding and lore department, at the expense of making the main characters, well, look and feel way less powerful than what they should be portrayed as by now.

Fantastic post. I agree, but also I'd like to point out that this seems to be a problem with even Toriyama's story arcs, which after expanding scope, scale and powercreep in one arc, go right back to a conservative approach the very next one. Battle of Gods opened up the multiverse, yet they go back to Freeza who becomes God tier through mere training; the Champa arc introduces a new universe, but the next arc goes back to universe 7 with the future timeline. Yes, Black was essentially a multiversal threat, but the action was condensed in universe 7. If we took the Black arc's premise to its logical conclusion, it would feel more like a DB Heroes arc with every universe getting a piece of the action. Afterwards, we expand the scope ridiculously with the universe survival, but go right back to a lone Saiyan prodigy in a backwater planet.

I think it is more noticeable with Toyotarou's arcs because Toriyama did still manage to inject some of the Super flair into even his more tightly scoped stories, whereas Toyotarou is clearly going for the Z movie vibe with his writing style.

At the very least, this problem with story structure was also present in the original series, what with the Cell arc seemingly being that one ugly half-step between the Namek arc and the Majin Boo arc. However, even there you could argue that the introduction of time travel functioned as a way to increase the scale (just as in the Black arc afterwards).

[TKA]

Regardless, I disagree that Vegeta showing regret over his actions on Namek is more important than the bingo dance

They're the same.

But Vegeta dancing like a fool to try to buy time for Goku to arrive is the far more effective way of showing to the viewers Vegeta's growth as a character. He fully accepts that they're all outmatched, and is willing to debase himself to protect the people he's come to think of as family.

At some point I need to make a lengthy analysis of Vegeta, because so many people have misreadings about this character. That comes with being the most complex character Toriyama's ever written, I suppose.

[DiscountDabi]

He cannot fly, use an aura, go beyond weapons and finger beams... Technically he was worse than Earthlings and only his sharp eye and his decent amount of ki managed him to go beyond this situation.

This is also making assumptions. Just because he never flew or spiked his aura doesn't mean he couldn't. He was/is a stealthy and crafty fighter. Him beating all the OG droids, who were updated with 73's physical capabilities, means at the very least he would also be able to contend with a weighted Piccolo.

This is Probrably the More Accurate Scaling. Mine was admittadly a High Ball. I think its also safe to assume he can Fly as he would kinda have to in order to get this vantage point here:

[Thani]

To be fair, he doesn't need to. Having a power level of 1.000 is already enough for him to jump there without no trouble whatsoever.

Still, it's very likely he can fly as well.

[capsulecorp]

willing to debase himself to protect the people he's come to think of as family

Exactly, well put. The bingo dance is more effective because it is humiliating. Stoically acknowledging he's done wrong and probably going to go to hell? That's progress but it doesn't demonstrate his emotional growth.

[BWri]

I think that's making too many assumptions. The only assumptions we can make is that all OG droids are around the same level of strength pre-copy since they were updated with 73's strength. 73 before copy was able to outspeed and get behind a weighted Piccolo, so that's his best feat when not using someone else's power.

I believe he used his teleport ability. There was a panel that showed one of the hedgehogs in his forehead jewel just before he crept up on Piccolo. And let's not forget all of Moro's men were amped by Moro. Each and every one of them. The 7-3 bots were likely none too impressive by current standards.

**forgot about the other bots being upgraded with 73's data. They'd only be as strong as Piccolo and Gohan if they were using their abilities, right? I don't remember the bots actively using their abilities when fighting Granolah.

[Yuji]

I think that's making too many assumptions. The only assumptions we can make is that all OG droids are around the same level of strength pre-copy since they were updated with 73's strength. 73 before copy was able to outspeed and get behind a weighted Piccolo, so that's his best feat when not using someone else's power.

I believe he used his teleport ability. There was a panel that showed one of the hedgehogs in his forehead jewel just before he crept up on Piccolo. And let's not forget all of Moro's men were amped by Moro. Each and every one of them. The 7-3 bots were likely none too impressive by current standards.

**forgot about the other bots being upgraded with 73's data. They'd only be as strong as Piccolo and Gohan if they were using their abilities, right? I don't remember the bots actively using their abilities when fighting Granolah.

The hedgehogs could create portals, not teleport. He was using his actual strength. Whether or not he was amped, the other robots were updated to the same standard as 73.

[DiscountDabi]

I think that's making too many assumptions. The only assumptions we can make is that all OG droids are around the same level of strength pre-copy since they were updated with 73's strength. 73 before copy was able to outspeed and get behind a weighted Piccolo, so that's his best feat when not using someone else's power.

I believe he used his teleport ability. There was a panel that showed one of the hedgehogs in his forehead jewel just before he crept up on Piccolo. And let's not forget all of Moro's men were amped by Moro. Each and every one of them. The 7-3 bots were likely none too impressive by current standards.

**forgot about the other bots being upgraded with 73's data. They'd only be as strong as Piccolo and Gohan if they were using their abilities, right? I don't remember the bots actively using their abilities when fighting Granolah.

The hedgehogs could create portals, not teleport. He was using his actual strength. Whether or not he was amped, the other robots were updated to the same standard as 73.

Something to note, He shot the 7-3's after they went to attack. So if they compare to Piccolo, He's actually far above them considering how casually he outsped them.

[BWri]

I think that's making too many assumptions. The only assumptions we can make is that all OG droids are around the same level of strength pre-copy since they were updated with 73's strength. 73 before copy was able to outspeed and get behind a weighted Piccolo, so that's his best feat when not using someone else's power.

I believe he used his teleport ability. There was a panel that showed one of the hedgehogs in his forehead jewel just before he crept up on Piccolo. And let's not forget all of Moro's men were amped by Moro. Each and every one of them. The 7-3 bots were likely none too impressive by current standards.

**forgot about the other bots being upgraded with 73's data. They'd only be as strong as Piccolo and Gohan if they were using their abilities, right? I don't remember the bots actively using their abilities when fighting Granolah.

The hedgehogs could create portals, not teleport. He was using his actual strength. Whether or not he was amped, the other robots were updated to the same standard as 73.

That was my opinion too, but the way it was portrayed from panel to panel, the portal doubles as a teleportation technique. There'd be no other reason to show that 73 was using the hedgehog's power than to imply its what it allowed him to sneak past Piccolo in the next panel.

I'm not sure the bots inherited Moro's amp. If they did then the other prisoners would have it as well. 73 is implied to have had a history prior to meeting Moro. I had assumed that his updates were regarding whatever data and strength he'd acquired before he was arrested the first time. Also, combat data is rather nebulous. The prisoners filled him with the stuff apparently.


It's unclear if this is the same as his copy ability or his backup ability. If it's like his copy ability then it runs out and only has room for 3 slots. He has none by the time he's done with the hedgehogs. If its like his backup ability, doesn't that mean they'd all be as strong as Moro? I think it's something else, like battle EXP or something similar to the Moro backup where he permanently upgrades his combat skill. Maybe if he keeps the ability long enough he absorbs it, IDK but the story doesn't clarify.

Something to note, He shot the 7-3's after they went to attack. So if they compare to Piccolo, He's actually far above them considering how casually he outsped them.

If so, yeah his reflexes are beyond good. I thought that was his special skill anyway, reflexes and accuracy far above his power level. Perfect for a sniper/gunner. I think it'd be weird for him to start at Piccolo or Gohan's level and for it to take over a hundred years for him to reach UI Goku *3. Gohan is like 2-4 years from reaching that with serious training.

[Nistarkail]

This is also making assumptions. Just because he never flew or spiked his aura doesn't mean he couldn't. He was/is a stealthy and crafty fighter. Him beating all the OG droids, who were updated with 73's physical capabilities, means at the very least he would also be able to contend with a weighted Piccolo

It seems that below, the old guy was surprised that Granolah could sense ki (or worse, have mele ki's based abilities).

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Eejn7-zidcg/ ... 25/015.jpg

And here, Oil is surprised that Granolah got an Aura.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iihVSz_4lNw/ ... 25/039.jpg

Regarding OG-73 clones, the event was situational. First, Granolah at least had his innate ability so he could snipe clones after scanned weaknesses; second, these clones were not stronger than OG-73, so his reflexes and power were the ideal showcase to confirm that he wasn't so weak. It's not possible to make more precise assumptions about OG-73 but I imagine that one day they will come to Earth, and every warrior on the planet will have enough panels and glory.


Consider also that Yajirobei cut Vegeta's tail, with a gap of power level between 970 and 180.000 Jiren VS Roshi is another proof that sometimes exclusive techniques could go beyond ki and power levels.

The major treat is Elec, a cunning invididual that wanted to appear weaker than his family but that more probably is really strong once done strange things with Gas e co.

[DiscountDabi]

Spoiler:

Oh Boy. This Image is Low Quality but that is one CRISP Volume Cover. I love how Granolah has his stun gun holstered, reminds me of an old western stand off, which this whole arc kinda is at this point if you think about it.

[Krillin1994]

Spoiler:

Oh Boy. This Image is Low Quality but that is one CRISP Volume Cover. I love how Granolah has his stun gun holstered, reminds me of an old western stand off, which this whole arc kinda is at this point if you think about it.

Grey hair on Vegeta? UI omen omen Vegeta confirmed

[Aizamasu]

Spoiler:

Oh Boy. This Image is Low Quality but that is one CRISP Volume Cover. I love how Granolah has his stun gun holstered, reminds me of an old western stand off, which this whole arc kinda is at this point if you think about it.

Toyotaro’s covers never disappoint.

[kemuri07]

Regardless, I disagree that Vegeta showing regret over his actions on Namek is more important than the bingo dance

They're the same.

But Vegeta dancing like a fool to try to buy time for Goku to arrive is the far more effective way of showing to the viewers Vegeta's growth as a character. He fully accepts that they're all outmatched, and is willing to debase himself to protect the people he's come to think of as family.

At some point I need to make a lengthy analysis of Vegeta, because so many people have misreadings about this character. That comes with being the most complex character Toriyama's ever written, I suppose.

To Toriyama's credit, he doesn't do the thing that I think American creators have a habit of doing and "cuddlying" popular character. At least not with Vegeta. It takes a loooooooong time for Vegeta to get over his bullshit and become a somewhat decent person. Hell, he becomes objectively worse once he becomes a Super Saiyan and drops the cold calculating part of his character and becomes ALL EGO VEGETA.