"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[UpFromTheSkies]

I wish this was the last new saiyan transformation ever. They were already out of hand by the Buu arc. This is ridiculous.

But I guess it's all about merchandise sales. I miss an emphasis on technique, which is what ultra instinct and destruction power should be. Omen almost nailed it.

It won't be the last, transformations have become a signature part of Dragon Ball. I'm glad they're finally giving them new abilities to go with their transformations, though, and they're not just stronger.

[FortuneSSJ]

I will say this. When SSG first was revealed, people hated it. When Golden Frieza was revealed, people hated it. When Mastered Ultra Instinct was revealed, people hated it. When Ikari Broly was revealed, People hated it.

Give people enough time, they'll like it. Just gotta get over the initial shock.

You can also add SSJ Rose to that list.

[Trouser]

So it is true. The worst Saiyan transformation ever. The concept of Hakaishin powerup is nice, but... Ugly, ugly, ugly. Now I'm hoping it's only one time thing and will be forgotten afterwards. Yuck.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Spoiler:

Great. Good for you. It doesn't make sense to me. Every mentor in Goku's entire life was pushing him toward UI.

This would be the bit I mentioned earlier about Ultra Instinct being the Ultimate Martial Arts Technique, and this being the culmination of Goku's self-definition as a Martial Artist, yes. That doesn't, however, mean he hasn't had to start again from the basics in order to achieve Ultra Instinct - it has been stated that he has (and several times prior to that, as well) - or, indeed, that it doesn't use totally different principles to his Super Saiyan and God Transformations - again, it quite obviously does, the specifics of which have been described at length in the series so far. There is no direct 'SSjB -> UI' pathway, like you were trying to assert earlier.

Goku starts again (and makes the culmination of his longstanding self-definition as a Martial Artist in a way that gives him incredible power), and Vegeta starts again (and makes the culmination of his longstanding self-definition as a Saiyan Warrior in a way that gives him incredible power). These are parallel, individual paths that have longstanding thematic significance for each character, but nevertheless required a new start to attain fully.

Beerus literally tells Vegeta to wield Destruction, he must STOP being trapped by the past and LET GO of stray thoughts and to no longer see his people's destruction as destiny and to just see it as a random event. He even tells Vegeta he must destroy and remake himself. The old Vegeta was obcessed about his Saiyan pride, heritage, and status. Those were his defining traits.

Vegeta still defines himself above all else as a Saiyan warrior - every time he's diverged from Goku in Super to date, he's foregrounded his Saiyan-ness in so doing (e.g., against Jiren, when he attains SSjB^e, and when he splits from Goku and co. to go to Yardrat). This hasn't changed. The things Beerus told him to drop were the guilt and doubts of that association that were inhibiting him from becoming truly powerful.

It's clear he hasn't abandoned the idea of being a Saiyan as the core of who he is as a person, since he references that "The blood of the Saiyan warrior race boils in my veins" when he activates the new transformation, and the fact that he notes that the form runs on an instinct, which makes its power limitless, no doubt also references both Beerus's statement about his own power and what Vegeta needs to do to get it, and also the Saiyan primal instinct for battle and destruction (which fits in Beerus's linkage of learning the power of Destruction and the past of the Saiyans). These things aren't going away just because he's started again in his training.

Being a Saiyan is still central to who Vegeta is as a character, and is still inextricably bound with the themes of the arc we've seen so far, including being trapped by the past - right now, Granolah is inhibited by what he can't let go of, and has hit his limit, while people like Goku and Vegeta continue to draw strength from their respective pasts and paths in life. You don't have to like the design, but it makes perfect sense that the design should reflect these ideas, particularly given the content of the arc so far.

Finally you can talk about themes all you like,

Erm, you were the one who began by calling the form "a step backward thematically". So, yes, we've obviously been talking about themes. If you don't want to, you can always stop.

Broly LITERALLY channelled the great ape into his base form and his face didn't grow more ape like or change beyond his eyes aka his iris.

So you're saying that, because no particularly Saiyan primal traits were chosen for the Ikari form design, no other form should be allowed to have them? Given that SSj3 exists and also trades on ideas of primal, wild Saiyan-ness (earlier designs also had a tail), I can't say I think much of that argument.

[Kinokima]

I know this a joke but so many people expected Vegeta’s destruction to be the same as Toppo’s even though that was an anime only thing.

Anyways personally I think he is meant to resemble a caveman/Ape man which does harken back to his Saiyan heritage.

Though I have seen some people say he is meant to look Beerus. That doesn’t entirely make sense to me since it’s not like all Destructions Gods look the same. But that could also be what Toyo was going for.


Edit: As for people saying this is for merchandise sales nothing in the manga has been merchandised.

[The Accountant]

So, Vegeta loses his eyebrows in his destruction form... Ok... Does that mean Beerus once had eyebrows?

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I feel like I can only truly judge this new transformation after I've seen it in colour. Every transformation after the manga's serialisation (at least the Saiyan ones) relies on what kind of colour it is. Being a black and white manga, the Saiyan transformations were distinguished by hair shapes and other distinct features. Super Saiyan God, Blue, Rose, UI and some others were all colour alterations, and I really do like some of those forms.

If a transformation like Super Saiyan God was revealed in a black and white manga panel then I would've found it way less impressive. It would literally just be base Goku but with bigger pupils and a little thinner. If fucking Golden Freeza was revealed in a black and white manga then I would've been pissed off.

I feel like a lot of people are being a little too quick to judge... Unless if you've hated pretty much every Saiyan transformation post Z, in which case, rage as much as you want.

The aura already looks cool as fuck in the manga, so I would love to see this in animation, or at least in a coloured artwork. I'm not too crazy on the muscle eyebrows, though. It worked with Super Saiyan 3 because it's supposed to be an Oozaru similarity. But with this Destruction form, I'm assuming it has nothing to do with Saiyan transformations, so it kinda feels weird having those muscle eyebrows.

[SupremeKai25]

I just love by the way how Vegeta "embracing his Saiyan roots" means that he turns into a caveman, it's so funny to me how Saiyan culture and identity can be summed up as "filthy cavemen"

I guess Frieza was right all along.

[pepd]

I thought I preferred the technique without transformation, but the destructor aspect of the saiyajins being linked to the Oozaru does merit (or at least justifies) one.
Themes apart, it has sense that, to achieve a technique that is based on bringing out and acting on instinct (battle and destruction, respectively), and there being transformations related to such instinct, a transformation emerges (that essentially occur when/for bringing out something that is sleeping).
Gokuu first achieved this divine-level of fighting instinct with a transformation that changed his hair color, a characteristic of the SS (an opposite of the brute saiyajins, for whom it became a mere legend) and the SSG (divine, like the level of martial arts of the MnG); now, when Vegeta uses this destructive instinct, a transformation with Oozaru characteristics emerges.


As for the appearance, it's weird, I don't love it or hate it. I hope the hair is black, the flames blue, and the eyes not-yellow

[TKA]

Toei, Shueisha and all parties involved sure know how to make this fanbase come alive: just give characters new forms.

This is why they'll never stop getting new forms. You people talked about this for over 10 pages with less than 1 full page released.

They never have to particularly aim high with story, themes, or artistry when all it takes to galvanize people is... a slightly new design. I'm not judging, I just found it amusing.

When someone linked me this image a few days ago, my response was "Lol, super saiyan 4," and that was the end of the thought. Amazed and amused that so much conversation came from this.

[BWri]

@amartbee on Twitter drew a thing and I think it looks cool. It's a combo of the chaotic hair I recommended and the eyeliner from Yuji's mockup a few pages back. The tongue expression doesn't exactly fit in this case but I like the others.

This is why they'll never stop getting new forms. You people talked about this for over 10 pages with less than 1 full page released.

I mostly despise Saiyan transformations at this point but I like art. It's just something new to talk about. For them, it's for sure an easy way to get people talking and buying new merch with little to n effort.

[Kinokima]

It’s something completely new of course people are going to talk about it whether their feelings are positive or negative. And it’s a manga so visuals are an important part of that. This is not just with Dragonball but with all popular manga franchises. And there is more than one page of the form out.

Anyways Amartbee is one of my favorite Dragon Ball artists. Her art is so unique, creative and fun.

[Cipher]

Getting people talking with a shocking visual and cliffhanger?

In my DB?!

It’s more likely than you think!

(DBS has been notably week on the cliffhanger placement front—there are a few good ones scattered throughout, but for example, not even Frost ringing out Goku or UI Moro land on chapter endings—and more often than not it’s had a tendency to even leave the content of the following chapter fairly telegraphed. So I’m happy to see this on those grounds. People are already buzzing about the chapter following this one.

And yes, a shocking visual and cliffhanger is eternal, and matters even on reread, since you can either remember or imagine the thrill of having hit it blind.)

Spoiler:

Anyway, the transformation is the ending sting. Toyotaro wanted to get people buzzing.

[GodVegetto91]

So when will we see the full colored version of Vegeta’s new form?

I’m dying to see that!

I can not form a decisive opinion on this transformation until I have seen what color its hair, eyes, and flames are.

[TKA]

I don’t particularly care about new forms or whatever. Which is why it’s so amusing to me that so many people do.

Now with that said, people redrawing it because they think they can do it better is so passé. Ask yourself what the artist is going for and why those choices were made instead of “why it no look cool”. It’s about as insulting as the people who “rewrite” movies/tv shows to “make them better”.

Also worth noting that it’s infinitely harder to create something new than it is to change an already-existing product into a new form.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Funnily enough, I made a thread a while ago asking how people would feel if Vegeta got a new form, and most people agreed that for a black and white manga there weren't many options left if they intended to stick with a simple design (instead of the SSJ3/4 route), as the only combinations of hair color and eyes that Vegeta hadn't used were already used by Goku, and just a new aura wouldn't convey a sense of significant or noticeable change (and Toyo had already done that with SSBE). I guess they went with the most drastic changes route among the simple options possible then!

The aura already looks cool as fuck in the manga, so I would love to see this in animation, or at least in a coloured artwork. I'm not too crazy on the muscle eyebrows, though. It worked with Super Saiyan 3 because it's supposed to be an Oozaru similarity.

I've seen a lot of fanarts and edits popping up around and the color really improves the overall design of the transformation

One in particular that strayed a bit from the purple color trend was this (I'm not a fan of the golden eyes, but the color looks cool)

[Kinokima]

Getting people talking with a shocking visual and cliffhanger?

In my DB?!

It’s more likely than you think!

(DBS has been notably week on the cliffhanger placement front—there are a few good ones scattered throughout, but for example, not even Frost ringing out Goku or UI Moro land on chapter endings—and more often than not it’s had a tendency to even leave the content of the following chapter fairly telegraphed. So I’m happy to see this on those grounds. People are already buzzing about the chapter following this one.

And yes, a shocking visual and cliffhanger is eternal, and matters even on reread, since you can either remember or imagine the thrill of having hit it blind.)

Spoiler:

Anyway, the transformation is the ending sting. Toyotaro wanted to get people buzzing.

I guess the only problem is I don’t think the plan was to get people talking about the ending before the full chapter even comes out but that is the nature of spoilers. Seems impossible to find out things in the order they are intended anymore.

[Cipher]

I guess the only problem is I don’t think the plan was to get people talking about the ending before the full chapter even comes out but that is the nature of spoilers. Seems impossible to find out things in the order they are intended anymore.

No doubt, but there’s always the option to be less plugged-in than say, fans actively following the series on message boards and social media tend to be.

Regardless, the intent was to get people buzzing about it in exactly the same way, just a few days later.

Spoiler:

Given that it was likely designed for black and white, I definitely fall into the camp of thinking the hair’s just meant to be black right now. No guess as to the aura flecks, but simple flame colors really might be it. Unless dialogue indicates otherwise, I’m thinking the intent is probably supposed to be pretty what-you-see-is-what-you-get, as the first DBS transformation intended to debut in a black and white medium.

[Kinokima]

I guess the only problem is I don’t think the plan was to get people talking about the ending before the full chapter even comes out but that is the nature of spoilers. Seems impossible to find out things in the order they are intended anymore.

No doubt, but there’s always the option to be less plugged-in than say, fans actively following the series on message boards and social media tend to be.

Regardless, the intent was to get people buzzing about it in exactly the same way, just a few days later.

True but the fans who are plugged in and most likely to see Spoilers are also the ones most likely to talk about it

Casual fans may not see the spoilers but they may also not create the buzz around the new form either.

I suppose anything that gets the fandom talking like this even if it’s not at the right time is a positive thing.

I would say maybe negative if the overall responsive to the new form was bad. But that’s not the case and you got both supporters and detractors here. So it definitely got people interested.

[Xeogran]

I just hope this form won't runout when Vegeta is about to deal the final hit. It's such a common trope, especially in these kind of rage-fueled transformations.

Of course Granolah isn't dying here, but I'd rather have it end in other way.