How relevant is Barry Watson in any sense

[JulieYBM]

I used to complain about being called a weeaboo. Then I started getting called actual slurs and it made worrying about what I got called for liming Japanese media just seem silly.

Like, yeah, I'm a weeaboo faggot tranny. So what?

Anyway, there's more important things to care about. If people want to use dub fandom as a cathartic escape from the Hellish nightmare that is living our daily lives under capitalism why should I care? I've got a backlog to get through that's miles long as it is!

[Planetnamek]

Not trying to "downplay" anything, i'm just going by what i've personally witnessed, there's an ungodly amount of DBZ videos on Youtube so its impossible to get a truly accurate read on if the majority of dub fans really are "xenophobic" or whatever, all I can say is based on my own experiences that's not been the case. Being a dub fan does not automatically mean i'm wrong.

It doesn't, but it does indicate that you may have blind spots when it comes to which side of the fandom you sympathize with. Based on my experiences as a fan, it strains credibility to me that you've never ever come across or seen any hostility from dub fans towards sub fans. It reads to me like something you're not really looking to see to begin with and that's the vibe I get when you make statements like "it's not that bad subbies, settle down".

I honestly see the same level of discourse coming from both camps to varying degrees, so I don't think it's fair to call subbers or dubbers worse in that regard.

Like Planetnamek, I'm going by my personal experiences. Yes, sub fans can be just as rabid as dub fans, but in the past I've typically been met with varying degrees of ridicule and general dismissal when I mention that I prefer Japanese Dragon Ball.

Fair enough, though from what i've seen purists often have their own blind spots as well, I just get the sense that some of them love to stereotype ALL dub fans as immature xenophobes when that's not remotely true. I've seen some hostility from dub fans towards sub fans on here, but I can't say i've come across that on Reddit or Youtube(at least not nearly as often).

[Majin Buu]

I used to complain about being called a weeaboo. Then I started getting called actual slurs and it made worrying about what I got called for liming Japanese media just seem silly.

Like, yeah, I'm a weeaboo faggot tranny. So what?

Anyway, there's more important things to care about. If people want to use dub fandom as a cathartic escape from the Hellish nightmare that is living our daily lives under capitalism why should I care? I've got a backlog to get through that's miles long as it is!

You're right. Compared to real life bigotry this stuff is silly and doesn't matter. That's something I always strive to maintain perspective on.

It's just the thought that someone thinks my perspective deserves to be ridiculed and dismissed simply because I think the original foreign version of this show is better than the American "reversioning" that rubs me the wrong way. It makes me want to be just as arbitrarily dismissive. It doesn't help that sub fans are a minority in the general North American Dragon Ball fandom and that my personal social circle is either A. Dub fans. Or B. Don't like Dragon Ball to begin with; so I just avoid discussing Dragon Ball entirely unless I'm with a good friend that I know won't mock me for my preferences (Kanzenshuu is more or less the only place I talk Dragon Ball nowadays). Again, this is meaningless tripe compared to real life bigotry, but it's nonetheless how I feel as an American Dragon Ball fan.

To bring it back to the topic, I think the severity of this particular facture in the North American fandom is Barry Watson's legacy; and I believe this divide wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is had Funimation simply dubbed the show faithfully from the start.

[Shiningboltsurge]

This all great points but can we revisit how contained Barry Watson’s ordination really is when comes to the localization of the company he worked for because it’s really just a bubble of z and gt dragon ball anime tenures

[Shiningboltsurge]

It's such a funny little thing how Watson just stumbled into this gig, quickly became a dinosaur and then just fell out of it as a result despite the carbon footprint of his legacy still very much influencing the fandom today.

Wherever he is I hope he is well and happy.

Fun throwback: Barry and Byron Watson in an old college project by Adam Campetti! https://youtu.be/4dIW_IfhWgc

can you give more insight into this it would really help

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

To put it blunt he simply just didn’t have a prominent career in anglosphere audial trans linguisticization of anime at all. for the prevalent company he actually for his caveats of assertion regarding “localizing”are ridiculously scarce. with said practices only really being known back when it was just a holding cell for with no infrastructure of qualified specializational field staffing like translators and I Kidd you not a negotiation department , cobbling together scraps of episode footage and illiterate broken machine engrish. but regarding the person in subject whose actual output of majorial ordination in a anglosphere official English audio version of anime was really just the first 3 and some change years of meterial to theis series’s later portion tv anime adaption’s initial fillerized cut. then after that those influences got ghettoed into a failed filler extension run where in he made faux rap and try hard synthonica. but actually look at library of shows said company actually produced English audio localizations for and see what trends actually and moldings hold firm. For background if anything I grew up with nicktoons edited Kai but even then I was reading manga subs and watching uncut at the same time

Good job on fixing your grammar. Anyway, no one can tell exactly how much influence Watson had on any particular element or scene unless you were there. But, in a way he still has some miniscule influence over the newer Funimation dubs, even today. The biggest example is the pronunciation of "Saiyan." If we were to drop any Japanese honorifics for the English dub then It should be pronounced "Sai-Yan" not "Sae-Yin." (According to Sean Schemmel the pronunciation came from Watson himself during one of his first ADR sessions.) And, to this day Funimation still has yet to fix that. You think with the "ultimate uncut, true authentic experience" with the Kai dub that Funimation would have changed this, but no.
I guess you could try comparing the television Ocean/Saban/Funimation dub to that of the Pioneer/Ocean/Funimation dub for the first three non-canon movies. But, even then the lines still are hazy because we don't know how much of the specific examples of censorship or odd line changes are from Watson himself or the Saban higher ups.

[MyVisionity]

And, to this day Funimation still has yet to fix that.

Probably because they realize just how awkward it would sound if they did "fix" it. The way Funimation pronounces it sounds more natural.

You think with the "ultimate uncut, true authentic experience" with the Kai dub that Funimation would have changed this, but no.

There's nothing "true and authentic" about the "SAI-yan" pronunciation to begin with, as the term "Saiyan" is a made-up word that doesn't exist in the Japanese version.

[VegettoEX]

And, to this day Funimation still has yet to fix that.

Probably because they realize just how awkward it would sound if they did "fix" it. The way Funimation pronounces it sounds more natural.

You think with the "ultimate uncut, true authentic experience" with the Kai dub that Funimation would have changed this, but no.

There's nothing "true and authentic" about the "SAI-yan" pronunciation to begin with, as the term "Saiyan" is a made-up word that doesn't exist in the Japanese version.

"Saiyan" as a transliteration / Latin alphabet spelling used in Japanese merchandise and print collateral pre-dates FUNimation even existing as a company.

Their dub's pronunciation is no more or less "natural" than one that adheres more closely to the source intention; there's literally zero way for you to qualify or quantify that statement. If you happen to feel that way based on... I dunno, whatever your jaw structure is and the way that your own actual mouth is able to form sounds, that's totally fine, I guess...?

Separate from this, the lasting impact of Barry Watson on the actual production of FUNimation's specific English dubs of the Dragon Ball franchise have been pretty widely discussed already, so I'm not sure that I have anything to add in that regard, but that's absolutely the angle I would take. His Illumitoon company went nowhere and accomplished effectively nothing in the industry after his time at FUNimation.

[MasenkoHA]

If anything Funimation’s pronunciation is less natural. Even Schemmel said he questioned how Watson got Sayin out of Saiyan

[jjgp1112]

I've seen people who aren't familiar with Dragon Ball but see Super Saiyan memes and references on Twitter and such say it with the correct pronunciation, only to be corrected by fans - and then vindicated by more knowledgeable fans lol. So if the first inclination of Dragon Ball outsiders is to go "Sai-" and not "Say-" that destroys the "It doesn't sound natural" argument.

[VegettoEX]

I've seen people who aren't familiar with Dragon Ball but see Super Saiyan memes and references on Twitter and such say it with the correct pronunciation, only to be corrected by fans - and then vindicated by more knowledgeable fans lol. So if the first inclination of Dragon Ball outsiders is to go "Sai-" and not "Say-" that destroys the "It doesn't sound natural" argument.

Yep Yep. Three "major" (I guess "major" is debatable) examples I can think of:

- Game Trailers' Raging Blast 2 review; narrator pronounces "Saiyan" correctly (Brandon Jones was the global narrator, and not necessarily the person who actually played the game and wrote the text review for him to narrate for the video reviews)

- 2018 Thanksgiving Day Parade showcase; Al Roker pronounces "Saiyan" correctly

- All Systems Goku podcast; Jeff Gerstmann questions this in the podcast's very first episode (pronunciation notation here from our forthcoming wiki; let me know if I got any of that wrong):

There are multiple levels to Super... I thought it was Super "Saiyan" [saɪɑːn], but it is Super "Saiyan" [seɪɛn] which seems like, the way it's spelled seems like it would be "Saiyan" [saɪɑːn]...

[TheBlackPaladin]

- 2018 Thanksgiving Day Parade showcase; Al Roker pronounces "Saiyan" correctly

Aaaaahhhh man!!! I didn't watch the parade that year, so I missed that. Not only is it cool that Roker pronounced it correctly, but it brings such a great level of joy to me to know that an instrumental version of Chala Head Chala was blared on the streets of NYC and in TVs across the US!

[MyVisionity]

I meant that "Saiyan" does not exist within the manga and anime itself, I'm aware of the merchandising and marketing.

Generally speaking, I would indeed say that the Funimation pronunciation rolls off the tongue much easier, at least for many English speakers. I figured that was something that would be commonly understood. Could it be quantified? I think possibly, with the right amount of research. But none of that's particularly relevant here.

If anything Funimation’s pronunciation is less natural. Even Schemmel said he questioned how Watson got Sayin out of Saiyan

That's if you're looking at the spelling of the word, and not just hearing it through the television screen.

I've seen people who aren't familiar with Dragon Ball but see Super Saiyan memes and references on Twitter and such say it with the correct pronunciation, only to be corrected by fans - and then vindicated by more knowledgeable fans lol. So if the first inclination of Dragon Ball outsiders is to go "Sai-" and not "Say-" that destroys the "It doesn't sound natural" argument.

I wouldn't call that "vindication" at all. Those "more knowledgeable fans" apparently don't realize or don't care that "Saiyan" is a made-up term that has little to do with the Japanese version. And again, you're talking about reading the word's spelling and not just hearing it.


Roker and his team at NBC are fools and they should have had their people verify the pronunciation before he opened his mouth.


What you all are really getting at is that FUNimation's choice to use "Saiyan" is problematic because of its spelling. Which I agree with. That's what happens when you take a name like Saiyajin and turn it into "Saiyan". It was doomed to fail before it ever began.

[VegettoEX]

I meant that "Saiyan" does not exist within the manga and anime itself, I'm aware of the merchandising and marketing.

What you all are really getting at is that FUNimation's choice to use "Saiyan" is problematic because of its spelling. Which I agree with. That's what happens when you take a name like Saiyajin and turn it into "Saiyan". It was doomed to fail before it ever began.

With all due respect, I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying, and I'm not convinced you actually understand the conversation or the underlying topics.

There's nothing wrong with the "Saiyan" Latin alphabet spelling. It makes sense in a bubble, and it makes sense knowing the original etymology. There's nothing unnatural in its pronunciation that hinders, obstructs, or otherwise prevents anyone from saying it, nor anything about the spelling that inherently guides someone toward another, alternate pronunciation; see: various other words with the same syllables within our language and within the same show, including the same dub being discussed.

Barry Watson (is likely the one who) made a weird call/decision with the syllable (see also: Kaio-Ken) -- one that others demonstrably would not and continue to not make -- and it's had lasting repercussions. That's really all there is to it here.

[jjgp1112]

I meant that "Saiyan" does not exist within the manga and anime itself, I'm aware of the merchandising and marketing.

Generally speaking, I would indeed say that the Funimation pronunciation rolls off the tongue much easier, at least for many English speakers. I figured that was something that would be commonly understood. Could it be quantified? I think possibly, with the right amount of research. But none of that's particularly relevant here.

If anything Funimation’s pronunciation is less natural. Even Schemmel said he questioned how Watson got Sayin out of Saiyan

That's if you're looking at the spelling of the word, and not just hearing it through the television screen.

I've seen people who aren't familiar with Dragon Ball but see Super Saiyan memes and references on Twitter and such say it with the correct pronunciation, only to be corrected by fans - and then vindicated by more knowledgeable fans lol. So if the first inclination of Dragon Ball outsiders is to go "Sai-" and not "Say-" that destroys the "It doesn't sound natural" argument.

I wouldn't call that "vindication" at all. Those "more knowledgeable fans" apparently don't realize or don't care that "Saiyan" is a made-up term that has little to do with the Japanese version. And again, you're talking about reading the word's spelling and not just hearing it.


Roker and his team at NBC are fools and they should have had their people verify the pronunciation before he opened his mouth.


What you all are really getting at is that FUNimation's choice to use "Saiyan" is problematic because of its spelling. Which I agree with. That's what happens when you take a name like Saiyajin and turn it into "Saiyan". It was doomed to fail before it ever began.

....what are you talking about?

The root word that matters in all this is "Saiya-". Jin is a suffix that denotes a classification of people, and in the English nomenclature the most logical translation is turning jin into the letter n since Saiya ends with a vowel sound. And, as Mike showed, even Japan turns Saiya-jin into Saiyan when using latin rendering. The -jin part seems to be what you're harping on, but that's nonsensical because any competent translation would just localize that because it's not meant to be an actual word.

In America, nobody will call me an America-jin, they'll call me an American.

[Adamant]

The -jin part seems to be what you're harping on, but that's nonsensical because any competent translation would just localize that because it's not meant to be an actual word.

(most foreign translations that just kept it as "Saiya-jin" were far far more competently done than Funiball)

[jjgp1112]

The -jin part seems to be what you're harping on, but that's nonsensical because any competent translation would just localize that because it's not meant to be an actual word.

(most foreign translations that just kept it as "Saiya-jin" were far far more competently done than Funiball)

Well, I didn't say that dub as a whole was competent, especially since this disucssion is revolving around one of its many errors. I'm just saying that in a vacuum, Saiyan is the most competent translation of Saiya-jin for English speaking audiences.

[MyVisionity]

I'm aware of the T-shirt, but I wouldn't use any of that kind of material as justification for a Latin spelling.

There's nothing wrong with the "Saiyan" Latin alphabet spelling. It makes sense in a bubble, and it makes sense knowing the original etymology. There's nothing unnatural in its pronunciation that hinders, obstructs, or otherwise prevents anyone from saying it, nor anything about the spelling that inherently guides someone toward another, alternate pronunciation; see: various other words with the same syllables within our language and within the same show, including the same dub being discussed.

That's a very small bubble then. The standards should be higher than simply "making sense in a bubble".

The unnatural part is that "N" sticking onto the end of it. Of course it doesn't prevent anyone from saying it, but it's going to sound awkward because of it.

If Funimation had wanted to pronounce it the way that Watson does, then they just should have changed the spelling entirely (from "SAI" to something else), then you wouldn't have the problem of reading the printed word differently.

If it's a matter of preserving the Japanese etymology, then they never should have stuck that "N" on there.

The root word that matters in all this is "Saiya-". Jin is a suffix that denotes a classification of people, and in the English nomenclature the most logical translation is turning jin into the letter n since Saiya ends with a vowel sound. And, as Mike showed, even Japan turns Saiya-jin into Saiyan when using latin rendering. The -jin part seems to be what you're harping on, but that's nonsensical because any competent translation would just localize that because it's not meant to be an actual word.

In America, nobody will call me an America-jin, they'll call me an American.

No, the "N" is no substitute for -jin. At least not in this case. The America example doesn't hold up, because America is a place. I'm not suggesting that they leave in the "jin" necessarily, but that doesn't mean you have to bother localizing it either.

[jjgp1112]

I'm aware of the T-shirt, but I wouldn't use any of that kind of material as justification for a Latin spelling.

There's nothing wrong with the "Saiyan" Latin alphabet spelling. It makes sense in a bubble, and it makes sense knowing the original etymology. There's nothing unnatural in its pronunciation that hinders, obstructs, or otherwise prevents anyone from saying it, nor anything about the spelling that inherently guides someone toward another, alternate pronunciation; see: various other words with the same syllables within our language and within the same show, including the same dub being discussed.

That's a very small bubble then. The standards should be higher than simply "making sense in a bubble".

The unnatural part is that "N" sticking onto the end of it. Of course it doesn't prevent anyone from saying it, but it's going to sound awkward because of it.

If Funimation had wanted to pronounce it the way that Watson does, then they just should have changed the spelling entirely (from "SAI" to something else), then you wouldn't have the problem of reading the printed word differently.

If it's a matter of preserving the Japanese etymology, then they never should have stuck that "N" on there.

The root word that matters in all this is "Saiya-". Jin is a suffix that denotes a classification of people, and in the English nomenclature the most logical translation is turning jin into the letter n since Saiya ends with a vowel sound. And, as Mike showed, even Japan turns Saiya-jin into Saiyan when using latin rendering. The -jin part seems to be what you're harping on, but that's nonsensical because any competent translation would just localize that because it's not meant to be an actual word.

In America, nobody will call me an America-jin, they'll call me an American.

No, the "N" is no substitute for -jin. At least not in this case. The America example doesn't hold up, because America is a place. I'm not suggesting that they leave in the "jin" necessarily, but that doesn't mean you have to bother localizing it either.

"-jin" simply means person. While it's most commonly used to denote somebody from a country, it's basic function is to indicate a person. Saiya-Jin = Saiya person. Saiya are clearly meant to be a collective of people, and "Saiya" and "Saiyan" are equally valid, though Saiya (which I'd imagine would be ambiguously plural and singular) is arguably clunkier. There was never a place called Maya but we still call the people of the Maya civilization Mayans, do we not?

(Speaking of which, we pronounce Mayan how Saiyan's supposed to be pronounced!)

[MyVisionity]

There was never a place called Maya but we still call the people of the Maya civilization Mayans, do we not?

There may be those that do, but I don't think that myself or that many others would call them that. It seems erroneous and a bit too "colonial" for my tastes.

Aside from that, I get your point, but in that case it would have probably made better sense to just call them the "Saiya". I don't think it's clunky or awkward sounding at all, as opposed to "SAI-yan". And with "Saiya", they could always still use "Saiyan" sometimes like an adjective, if they were describing some aspect of Saiya culture or something like that.