The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

[ABED]

GT Goku is chronologically older than Super Goku.

Yes but despite his actual age, he's still a kid in GT. Which means he's prone to childish behavior. That's true even if the transformation were entirely physical, because the writers are more likely to depict Goku childishly when he's that size.

Such as? Goku as an adult is very childlike.

It's been a while since I've seen GT but wasn't there that bit where it looks like Trunks has disabled Baby's life support and Goku starts whining over not getting the chance to fight him and starts crawling all over his tube?

It's a mild scene, but one that still sticks out to me as being annoying.

Why does that annoy you?

[Shaddy]

The weak point of GT is that it's incredibly boring, and the weak point of Super is that it has no idea what it wants to be.

[super michael]

Because we don't see it but no way everyone got off the island.

Goku tried to prevent innocent people from getting killed and if evil does manage to kill, then he would want to revive those that were killed.

Why do I have to keep saying this - he doesn't pre-emptively stop evil from rising up. He is fine with it if it'll give him a good fight.

Goku saw Majin Buu as a greater threat, so him working with Vegeta was a smart decision. It is better not to underestimate his opponent.

There were far better ways to defeat Buu than the way he went about it - one on one without the Potara or Gohan.

We didn't see anyone mentioned that x character died in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament and no one suggested to use Shenron to revive anyone.

Goku may not stop evil from appearing, like the Cyborgs an example not wanting to use the Dragon Ball to find Dr Gero location. But he wouldn't allow evil to attack innocent people.

As for the part about Vegeta I misunderstood, the part that Vegeta killed Goku friend was on Namek. Goku read Krillin mind and saw that Vegeta saved both Gohan and Krillin life by defeating Guldo and teaming up with them. Teaming up with the enemy to defeat a stronger enemy is a smart move.

As for Majin Buu I don't know what Goku was thinking about Gohan, but we know Gohan was near Majin Buu. Goku bringing Vegeta to help in their battle against Majin Buu was a smart choice.
Keep in mind Goku, Gohan and Vegeta didn't know Majin Buu full power.

[ABED]

Because we don't see it but no way everyone got off the island.

Goku tried to prevent innocent people from getting killed and if evil does manage to kill, then he would want to revive those that were killed.

Why do I have to keep saying this - he doesn't pre-emptively stop evil from rising up. He is fine with it if it'll give him a good fight.

Goku saw Majin Buu as a greater threat, so him working with Vegeta was a smart decision. It is better not to underestimate his opponent.

There were far better ways to defeat Buu than the way he went about it - one on one without the Potara or Gohan.

We didn't see anyone mentioned that x character died in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament and no one suggested to use Shenron to revive anyone.

Goku may not stop evil from appearing, like the Cyborgs an example not wanting to use the Dragon Ball to find Dr Gero location. But he wouldn't allow evil to attack innocent people.

As for the part about Vegeta I misunderstood, the part that Vegeta killed Goku friend was on Namek. Goku read Krillin mind and saw that Vegeta saved both Gohan and Krillin life by defeating Guldo and teaming up with them. Teaming up with the enemy to defeat a stronger enemy is a smart move.

As for Majin Buu I don't know what Goku was thinking about Gohan, but we know Gohan was near Majin Buu. Goku bringing Vegeta to help in their battle against Majin Buu was a smart choice.
Keep in mind Goku, Gohan and Vegeta didn't know Majin Buu full power.

It's an inevitability that they would attack innocent people. Goku knows this. It's why he says that he knows letting Vegeta go isn't the right thing. Still it doesn't stop him from asking.

Sure, sometimes teaming up with an enemy is a smart move for survival but he doesn't always do the smart thing. No, Goku bringing Vegeta wasn't a smart move. There were better options and he chose the one that would allow him to fight as a Saiyan.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

And he appeared to not care that much when he destroyed the Potarra so he could "fight like a Saiyan". Whether you like it or not is NOT the issue. What matters is if it's in character.

Goku does grasp the gravity of these situations but I don't know how many times people have to hear this - he's not a superhero. Goku puts fights above the fate of the world(s). He cared more about winning the 23rd TB than taking down Piccolo as expediently as possible.

There's a big difference between taking an irresponsible risk and simply having no reaction to innocent people dying in front of you. He doesn't need to be a superhero, he just needs to feel like less of a soulless caricature.

Goku in the original run was irresponsible, but he always cared about people, and hated seeing innocents wronged when it happened in front of him. In Super he doesn't even show any sign of disliking Zeno despite him wiping out countless people on a whim.

Goku couldn't show any signs of disliking Zeno even if he wanted to, this is a guy who erased 6 universes on a whim simply because he was angry. If Goku can get in his good books, for the safety of billions of lives he's wise to do what he can to stay in them because if he expressed any disagreement with Zeno's actions he could risk universe 7, and possibly more also being erased on the spot too.

[SupremeKai25]

Because apparently this still needs to be explained in 2021, Yes Goku knows what kissing is. He was just surprised that Trunks gave Mai a Senzu bean by kissing her because Goku's never done that. He never gave a Senzu bean to, say, Krillin, by kissing him.

A better example would have been Goku acting like a mongoloid towards Zamasu, and btw Goku wasn't that smart in Z either.

For example, his "grand masterplan" to defeat Cell was essentially a complete gamble that would have easily failed if 16 didn't exist. Even Goku realized he messed up when Piccolo told him that Gohan just isn't a warrior, so he was pretty dumb, especially in the Cell saga.

[MasenkoHA]

Because apparently this still needs to be explained in 2021, Yes Goku knows what kissing is. He was just surprised that Trunks gave Mai a Senzu bean by kissing her because Goku's never done that. He never gave a Senzu bean to, say, Krillin, by kissing him.

No, they point blank have Goku saying he’s never kissed his wife. You’re blatantly ignoring the actual dialog

For example, his "grand masterplan" to defeat Cell was essentially a complete gamble that would have easily failed if 16 didn't exist. Even Goku realized he messed up when Piccolo told him that Gohan just isn't a warrior, so he was pretty dumb, especially in the Cell saga.

That’s more Goku being narrow minded than outright stupid.

[SupremeKai25]

Because apparently this still needs to be explained in 2021, Yes Goku knows what kissing is. He was just surprised that Trunks gave Mai a Senzu bean by kissing her because Goku's never done that. He never gave a Senzu bean to, say, Krillin, by kissing him.

No, they point blank have Goku saying he’s never kissed his wife. You’re blatantly ignoring the actual dialog

But of course Goku knows what kissing is, even if you ignore the fact that he has two children, he was also kissed by Chi Chi multiple times. So he already saw what it is. He was simply surprised that Trunks fed Mai the Senzu bean by kissing her because no one else ever did that before.

That’s more Goku being narrow minded than outright stupid.

Including when he gave Cell the Senzu bean?

Call it "narrow-minded", I call it stupid. He knew Cell was going to blow up the Earth if he won so he was just stupid to gamble the Earth like that. He played with fire too much and ended up burning himself. And you can say that the gamble paid off, but it certainly wasn't thanks to Goku, it was thanks to 16's speech. Before that Goku realized that he had indeed messed up and tried to get a Senzu bean before Cell took them away.

[MasenkoHA]

But of course Goku knows what kissing is, even if you ignore the fact that he has two children, he was also kissed by Chi Chi multiple times

He’s seen kissing Chi Chi once in anime only material from Z. Super pretty blatantly ignores stuff that didn’t come the original manga.

I’m about to blow your mind, kissing is not a requirement for sexual reproduction. Is it really weird that Goku and Chi Chi apparently didn’t kiss the two (confirmed) times they had sex? Yes but Goku is a bumpkin who probably didn’t understand what sex is even while having it and Chi Chi is a super conservative hillbilly.

He was simply surprised that Trunks fed Mai the Senzu bean by kissing her because no one else ever did that before.

Vegeta straight up ask if he’s never done that before and tells Goku that he’s married. The joke is in your face: Goku has never kissed Chi Chi before.

Including when he gave Cell the Senzu bean?

Call it "narrow-minded", I call it stupid. He knew Cell was going to blow up the Earth if he won so he was just stupid to gamble the Earth like that. He played with fire too much and ended up burning himself. And you can say that the gamble paid off, but it certainly wasn't thanks to Goku, it was thanks to 16's speech. Before that Goku realized that he had indeed messed up and tried to get a Senzu bean before Cell took them away.

Yes because Goku prioritized the safety of the earth just to showcase how strong Gohan was. He knew even at his full strength Cell wouldn’t be able to compare to Gohan. He just didn’t account for the fact that Gohan doesn’t actually like fighting. That’s him being myopic, not stupid.

As opposed to the whole Monaka thing fooling him in Super.

[Skar]

A better example would have been Goku acting like a mongoloid towards Zamasu, and btw Goku wasn't that smart in Z either.

That was still an anime only scene. Goku was respectful towards Beerus in BoG and in both versions when he met the Grand Priest so I doubt Toriyama would write that scene with Zamasu. I think a good example of how different writers could depict Goku is Goku vs Bergamo and Toppo in the anime and vs Broly in the movie. Bergamo and Toppo called him evil and he didn't seem to register what was happening and only thought about fighting them while he tried ending the fight with Broly when he realized it wasn't Broly's choice. I think Toriyama writes him as a more rounded character while some writers could exaggerate certain character traits more than others.

[Myk]

That was still an anime only scene. Goku was respectful towards Beerus in BoG and in both versions when he met the Grand Priest so I doubt Toriyama would write that scene with Zamasu. I think a good example of how different writers could depict Goku is Goku vs Bergamo and Toppo in the anime and vs Broly in the movie. Bergamo and Toppo called him evil and he didn't seem to register what was happening and only thought about fighting them while he tried ending the fight with Broly when he realized it wasn't Broly's choice. I think Toriyama writes him as a more rounded character while some writers could exaggerate certain character traits more than others.

Are those situations really comparable though?
It’s not like Bergamo and Toppo didn’t want to fight him. And it’s not like he could just tell them to stop fighting. I think Goku definitely knew what was happening and chose to enjoy the competition he was asking for knowing that he couldn’t just throw the match.

[Skar]

Are those situations really comparable though?
It’s not like Bergamo and Toppo didn’t want to fight him. And it’s not like he could just tell them to stop fighting. I think Goku definitely knew what was happening and chose to enjoy the competition he was asking for knowing that he couldn’t just throw the match.

Goku still told off Raditz and he also acknowledged that the Saiyans were evil and got what they deserved when he fought Freeza so I really don't think Toriyama would've wrote those scenes like that. Goku vs Bergamo wasn't in the manga so likely not part of the outline and Goku had a more respectful exchange with Toppo.

[TheMikado]

Ok so I’m going to point out some stand out issues from the very first episode of each series.

Super:
In the first episode Goku kicks back and let’s Goten drive the tractor and of course is incredible irresponsible and borderline lazy.
In a later scene we see Goku struggling to understand the amount of money that was being given to him and and Goten has to break it down for him. This isn’t even counting whatever issues Goku was struggling with when calculating how many people they needed for the SSG ritual.

Total idiot.

For context in DB Goku is easily able to comprehend the length of Snake way and also able to quick math calculations like knowing how much time he has before a match. Meaning he can both tell time and mathematically calculate time.

GT:
Goku has been training Uub, he sees emperor Pilaf and barely kinda remembers him since it’s been at least 20/30 years ( I forget the exact timeline). They aren’t even a threat but Goku deals with they relatively quickly.

Gets shrunk down to a child. Realizes the gravity of the situation but does fret over it. Informs the rest of everyone and gets a very grave face when explaining what needs to be done. Also acknowledges its best for someone to stay home and protect earth.
Does childish thing like getting kidnapped, but was never in real danger and getting free meals.

Not an idiot, still a big kid at heart but actually takes things seriously and more consistent with Buu arc Goku.

[ABED]

That's not stupid. Time is something that has great effect on his everyday life. Money doesn't. He has no need for it. If he gets 1 million zeni, knowing what that means would mean he understands relative prices but since he doesn't want for anything he can't get on his own, that carries no weight for him.

Goten is super strong. How is him driving around in a tractor unsupervised irresponsible? What danger does it pose?

[TheMikado]

That's not stupid. Time is something that has great effect on his everyday life. Money doesn't. He has no need for it. If he gets 1 million zeni, knowing what that means would mean he understands relative prices but since he doesn't want for anything he can't get on his own, that carries no weight for him.

Goten is super strong. How is him driving around in a tractor unsupervised irresponsible? What danger does it pose?

Goku is literally working a job as a farmer with a full on tractor in the very first episode of Super. There’s no way he doesn’t understand the concept of money. The tractor didn’t just build itself and he knew enough that he needed to get it fixed to do his job. He was immature, irresponsible, and lazy to let Goten drive the tractor NOT because it was a danger to Goten, but because it was a danger to the tractor and his entire livelihood.

Again Goku understood the concept of extreme distances of snake way despite never experiencing them. Goku was always intelligent, just uninformed about the world around him. These are two different concepts. Goku has formulated plans on various occasions which shows he is intelligent enough to comprehend concepts he has no previous experience with.

[Myk]

Ok so I’m going to point out some stand out issues from the very first episode of each series.

Super:
In the first episode Goku kicks back and let’s Goten drive the tractor and of course is incredible irresponsible and borderline lazy.
In a later scene we see Goku struggling to understand the amount of money that was being given to him and and Goten has to break it down for him. This isn’t even counting whatever issues Goku was struggling with when calculating how many people they needed for the SSG ritual.

Total idiot.

For context in DB Goku is easily able to comprehend the length of Snake way and also able to quick math calculations like knowing how much time he has before a match. Meaning he can both tell time and mathematically calculate time.

GT:
Goku has been training Uub, he sees emperor Pilaf and barely kinda remembers him since it’s been at least 20/30 years ( I forget the exact timeline). They aren’t even a threat but Goku deals with they relatively quickly.

Gets shrunk down to a child. Realizes the gravity of the situation but does fret over it. Informs the rest of everyone and gets a very grave face when explaining what needs to be done. Also acknowledges its best for someone to stay home and protect earth.
Does childish thing like getting kidnapped, but was never in real danger and getting free meals.

Not an idiot, still a big kid at heart but actually takes things seriously and more consistent with Buu arc Goku.

Well dbs Goku also knew that A 100 million was a lot of money so at face value he shows the same level of understanding as z Goku did when he found out about snake way. Dbs Goku also takes things seriously like when goten falls off the cliff and Goku immediately saves him and the tractor and even gives goten a mature answer for why he has to train.

[ABED]

That's not stupid. Time is something that has great effect on his everyday life. Money doesn't. He has no need for it. If he gets 1 million zeni, knowing what that means would mean he understands relative prices but since he doesn't want for anything he can't get on his own, that carries no weight for him.

Goten is super strong. How is him driving around in a tractor unsupervised irresponsible? What danger does it pose?

Goku is literally working a job as a farmer with a full on tractor in the very first episode of Super. There’s no way he doesn’t understand the concept of money. The tractor didn’t just build itself and he knew enough that he needed to get it fixed to do his job. He was immature, irresponsible, and lazy to let Goten drive the tractor NOT because it was a danger to Goten, but because it was a danger to the tractor and his entire livelihood.

Again Goku understood the concept of extreme distances of snake way despite never experiencing them. Goku was always intelligent, just uninformed about the world around him. These are two different concepts. Goku has formulated plans on various occasions which shows he is intelligent enough to comprehend concepts he has no previous experience with.

Why are you assuming he was the one who bought it? What you are talking about are very concrete issues - using a tool to farm, and the need to fix it. And what livelihood? Goku and his family don't need the money. They are able live isolated from civilization because they can hunt and fish for themselves.

Goku ran and swam and walked around the world, literally, before the 22nd TB. He understands the concrete concept of distance.

Distance isn't the same as money, not even remotely. $1M sounds like a lot, but not if its purchasing power is low.

[TheMikado]

That's not stupid. Time is something that has great effect on his everyday life. Money doesn't. He has no need for it. If he gets 1 million zeni, knowing what that means would mean he understands relative prices but since he doesn't want for anything he can't get on his own, that carries no weight for him.

Goten is super strong. How is him driving around in a tractor unsupervised irresponsible? What danger does it pose?

Goku is literally working a job as a farmer with a full on tractor in the very first episode of Super. There’s no way he doesn’t understand the concept of money. The tractor didn’t just build itself and he knew enough that he needed to get it fixed to do his job. He was immature, irresponsible, and lazy to let Goten drive the tractor NOT because it was a danger to Goten, but because it was a danger to the tractor and his entire livelihood.

Again Goku understood the concept of extreme distances of snake way despite never experiencing them. Goku was always intelligent, just uninformed about the world around him. These are two different concepts. Goku has formulated plans on various occasions which shows he is intelligent enough to comprehend concepts he has no previous experience with.

Why are you assuming he was the one who bought it? What you are talking about are very concrete issues - using a tool to farm, and the need to fix it. And what livelihood? Goku and his family don't need the money. They are able live isolated from civilization because they can hunt and fish for themselves.

Goku ran and swam and walked around the world, literally, before the 22nd TB. He understands the concrete concept of distance.

Distance isn't the same as money, not even remotely. $1M sounds like a lot, but not if its purchasing power is low.

Goku is a radish farmer. He’s not just eating radishes. He has to literally do business as part of his job. His family has modern clothing and supplies that has to come from somewhere since the Ox Kings money ran out.

Goku has demonstrated that he is aware of the value of money and what it does. Again Goku is not an idiot. He is very clearly able to grasp the concept of money and it’s value something 5 year olds can grasp. I’ll repeat this again.
Goku is not an idiot.

[TheMikado]

Ok so I’m going to point out some stand out issues from the very first episode of each series.

Super:
In the first episode Goku kicks back and let’s Goten drive the tractor and of course is incredible irresponsible and borderline lazy.
In a later scene we see Goku struggling to understand the amount of money that was being given to him and and Goten has to break it down for him. This isn’t even counting whatever issues Goku was struggling with when calculating how many people they needed for the SSG ritual.

Total idiot.

For context in DB Goku is easily able to comprehend the length of Snake way and also able to quick math calculations like knowing how much time he has before a match. Meaning he can both tell time and mathematically calculate time.

GT:
Goku has been training Uub, he sees emperor Pilaf and barely kinda remembers him since it’s been at least 20/30 years ( I forget the exact timeline). They aren’t even a threat but Goku deals with they relatively quickly.

Gets shrunk down to a child. Realizes the gravity of the situation but does fret over it. Informs the rest of everyone and gets a very grave face when explaining what needs to be done. Also acknowledges its best for someone to stay home and protect earth.
Does childish thing like getting kidnapped, but was never in real danger and getting free meals.

Not an idiot, still a big kid at heart but actually takes things seriously and more consistent with Buu arc Goku.

Well dbs Goku also knew that A 100 million was a lot of money so at face value he shows the same level of understanding as z Goku did when he found out about snake way. Dbs Goku also takes things seriously like when goten falls off the cliff and Goku immediately saves him and the tractor and even gives goten a mature answer for why he has to train.

He understand it being a lot, but as I recall Goku was able to do basic math and calculations in his head as well. Be it estimates or time or distance, Goku demonstrated basic math skills.

[ABED]

Goku is literally working a job as a farmer with a full on tractor in the very first episode of Super. There’s no way he doesn’t understand the concept of money. The tractor didn’t just build itself and he knew enough that he needed to get it fixed to do his job. He was immature, irresponsible, and lazy to let Goten drive the tractor NOT because it was a danger to Goten, but because it was a danger to the tractor and his entire livelihood.

Again Goku understood the concept of extreme distances of snake way despite never experiencing them. Goku was always intelligent, just uninformed about the world around him. These are two different concepts. Goku has formulated plans on various occasions which shows he is intelligent enough to comprehend concepts he has no previous experience with.

Why are you assuming he was the one who bought it? What you are talking about are very concrete issues - using a tool to farm, and the need to fix it. And what livelihood? Goku and his family don't need the money. They are able live isolated from civilization because they can hunt and fish for themselves.

Goku ran and swam and walked around the world, literally, before the 22nd TB. He understands the concrete concept of distance.

Distance isn't the same as money, not even remotely. $1M sounds like a lot, but not if its purchasing power is low.

Goku is a radish farmer. He’s not just eating radishes. He has to literally do business as part of his job. His family has modern clothing and supplies that has to come from somewhere since the Ox Kings money ran out.

Goku has demonstrated that he is aware of the value of money and what it does. Again Goku is not an idiot. He is very clearly able to grasp the concept of money and it’s value something 5 year olds can grasp. I’ll repeat this again.
Goku is not an idiot.

I'll repeat, not understanding money doesn't make you an idiot and he didn't need the income. Chichi pushed that on him. If he didn't make money he'd go back to living like he did when we first meet him. Goku doesn't need a job nor modern clothing.

The concept of money is more than basic math. You know why 5 year olds grasp money? because they are around it all the time. They see money and prices. You need to know what the relative price level is to understand the value of money, otherwise it's just a number.