Was Moro wasted potential? His introduction was really ominous.

[WittyUsername]

Neither of them have much to their characters beyond being evil. You say that his similarities to Cell are superficial, but I say the differences you’re referring to are pretty superficial. Dragon Ball villains in general aren’t exactly multi-faceted.

They don't need to be multifaceted to just be about different basic things - all that needs to happen is for Moro to be about certain things, and for Cell to not really be about those things. Moro is about theft and predation for its own sake, and Cell is about attaining perfection according to the plan that has been laid out for him by Gero, and simply enjoying the fact of it and making people die in terror because that's "the best fun". Those things aren't really similar, to me.

On which note, if you want an extensive treatment, here's what I wrote some time back about Moro's character and what he's about:

Spoiler:

• In short, Moro sees himself as the Apex Predator of creation, and thinks this makes him superior. However, as befits a Thief, which is all he is, he's really just (as Goku puts it) a "sneaky coward", and his Serpentine Cunning throws this into clear view:
  • Fundamentally, Moro believes he's the "supreme life-form" because he is capable of consuming everyone and everything, and compelled to do so. He's the Apex Predator of existence, and this makes him Insatiable. He'll even say that "I do not fear divine power!" (超 #64), because "The Gods' creations are mine to devour!!" This predatory aspect to Moro's character is such that it's not too much to say that he looks at everyone and everything as either a meal, or else as accessory to the creation of a meal - literally everything he does and says has to be parsed through this fact. He says the main reason he consumes energy is "to fill my stomach", which is "the primary goal", rather than becoming stronger or anything else (超 #59), and everything else he says reinforces this outlook: for instance, he notes Planet Namek has power remaining in 超 #49 and says "What a waste to leave food on my plate"; he also evaluates planets like Zoon on the basis of how good a meal it is (超 #51), and calls Goku and Vegeta "livestock" in 超 #51 (and tells Vegeta "You will make for my finest meal yet" in 超 #61); his interest in them expires as soon as he's eaten all of their energy in 超 #46 ("Those drained of their energy will perish on their own in short order. Their lives no longer concern me"). That this consideration overrides all others shows up when Moro merely concludes from the loss of some of his scouts that a planet that can do this is probably a good meal (超 #52), and declares Vegeta's defeat of Yuzun (and that Vegeta must have become stronger) as a "delightful development" (超 #55), and he says he's "in high spirits" to have chanced upon the high number of powerful individuals on Earth (超 #57). Even as his team gets defeated by Earth's warriors, he simply muses on who might be first on the menu (超 #56), and his followers play up to this single-mindedness: Saganbo, for instance, quite literally offers to "cook" Moro's foes "to your liking" in 超 #57. In this sense, this is pretty much all there is to Moro. It's very straightforward, and one might wish there were some other twist (or even a gag) to this aspect of the characterisation, but there really isn't; it's played totally straight, which is probably why Moro comes across as a 'generic Doomsday villain' to a lot of people, even when one puts aside his conceptual reliance on Piccolo Daimao - he says what he's about, he does stuff that reemphasises this...and that's about it.
  • Moro introduces himself by trying to eat Esca (超 #44), but says, "Worry not. This one is merely food", which indicates that he also thinks of consuming the lives of others as fairly natural and undramatic; in fact, he seems to regard it in a philosophical, detached manner - as he tells Tsuburi, "You are all fated to die in due time" (超 #46), and he thinks of the Galactic Patrol's opposition, and peace-keeping attempts, as "nonsense" and they should be "eradicated" (超 #50). Goku will throw all this back in his face in 超 #64, where he asks Moro if he can understand the pain of all those he killed, now the shoe is on the other foot. Clearly, this never really occurred to Moro - like a Shark (his namesake) devours its prey and keeps moving forward without any difficulty, hesitation, or regret, that's the way Moro is too.
  • Despite the compulsion to devour, there's not much in Moro's character that points towards any intention to husband and secure these resources, irreplaceable as they are (though Moro does not think so, as we'll see). The closest he gets to such a sentiment is in 超 #54, where he consents to wait until Goku and Vegeta have trained, so that he will get a better meal out of it, and in 超 #62, where he refrains from killing the heroes outright because "You people are my meal, you know". The only time he actually passes up the opportunity to consume energy is with Jaco - but only because it's "Such a small portion...and probably foul-tasting" (超 #62). Otherwise, his consumption of others appears always to be total and final - we never get the sense that Moro might take the view of securing his food sources for the long term (say, draining people like Earth's heroes to feed himself, allowing them to recover, and coming back to repeat the process) - it's always simply annihilatory, even though he admits that there aren't many planets "teeming with so many high-energy individuals" (超 #57); all it means is that he doesn't want to eat it all in one 'gulp', but to "prepare this dish" in a way that's to his liking. This cements the characterisation of Moro both as Apex Predator and as Thief, as he has no view of allowing what he steals to be restored to his victims, and he predates on them insatiably.
  • Being able to consume everything and anything has given Moro a misplaced sense of superiority, as a limitless being who should properly inhabit some sort of rulership function (albeit just one that sustains his habits) - he says his goal is "To create an ideal Galaxy where I am free to consume Planets as I wish" (超 #50); and later specifies that this means he will be "ruling over the Galaxy for all eternity" (超 #61). Even as his ambitions are limitless (in service of a base urge though they are), so is his self-conception: when he resolves to eat until he hits the limits of his power, he questions whether he even has such limits (超 #55), and later scoffs at the idea, even while Merus's Angelic power is destroying his body, on the basis of the Life Force he has consumed (超 #65); even self-improvement is unnecessary, as with training, which Moro despises as "a crutch for the weak" - hardly fitting for the limitless predator of all. He also refuses to receive judgement from others - as in 超 #64, where he tells Goku that to "presume to lecture me", he must "think yourself a God" - only the Gods might judge, and the greatest of them is Moro's hated enemy (超 #43, 48, 49); others aren't fit to do so.
  • Conversely, in keeping with this conviction of superiority, Moro regards other beings as lower life-forms. That's not particularly unique to Moro; most Dragon Ball villains have a similar outlook (See: Piccolo Daimao, DB #159; Vegeta, DB# 237; Freeza, DB #291; Cell, DB #388); however, Moro's seems drawn specifically from his position as a predator. Moro has no difficulty in killing his own men (Cranberry, 超 #48; Saganbo, 超 #58 - he calls him "pathetic" for dying, into the bargain, and his death comes from Moro's insatiability, as his curiosity essentially drives him to kill Saganbo; Shimorekka, 超 #61), and disavows the notion that he might have "friends", as while his followers might die, "I can always collect more". He also calls Goku a "lowly life-form" (超 #59), Earth's fighters "worms" (超 #60, #64), and generally acts in a condescending manner to those he encounters (see, for instance, the way he toys with the "insect" Vegeta in 超 #45, or that he kills the Namekian "saviour" without bothering to look at him in 超 #46, or that he declines battle in 超 #48 because he doesn't see the need, or when he condescendingly says to Goku "consider me shocked that you amassed such power" in 超 #60). He also doesn't accept that other beings might have goals that don't align with his own; even if they don't necessarily work against him, it is likewise unacceptable - as with his order to kill the Macarenis, on the grounds that "Traitors acting on their own are dispensable" (超 #53). Only Moro's goals matter.
  • Moro always seems intent on having some sort of back-up plan or cautious, hidden approach (artistically pointed up by his serpentine eyes), despite the very straightforward goals he has - or, as Goku puts it in 超 #65, he's "a sneaky coward". He hides his "true intent" of devouring Vegeta and Goku's power in the first battle, slowly whittling their power away in 超 #45; he also keeps the fact he has another wish secret until his first is granted, and doesn't reveal its contents until it's too late and his convict allies have arrived (超 #48-50). He lets his pawns do the fighting in 超 #50, siphoning energy from Vegeta and Goku and gifting it to his goons, and he uses the abilities of one particular goon (OG73-I) to "create a complete back-up" of himself in case things go wrong (as they do, in 超 #61), which enables him to gain the upper hand once again. But in battle, his approach is rarely straightforward: He waits for Goku to wear himself out in the first phase of their battle (超 #59), and then when he sees the full extent of Goku's power, says simply he "approached you too cautiously" (超 #60). Even though he is confident Dende poses no threat, he makes sure by sealing off the battlefield with a barrier (超 #62). Once Goku attains True Ultra Instinct, however, there aren't any obvious ploys left - only fear (超 #64) - and begging for his life, which he tries to use to provide one last opening to kill Goku, which fails (超 #65); and his final, improvised move, stealing Merus's Angelic power, proves his undoing because he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams: the power of the technique begins to destroy him, and he tries a last-minute manoeuvre to merge with Earth to contain it - it's not planned, simply desperate: Goku backs him into a corner and he throws caution to the wind, as the cunning that has served him so well eventually proves to be his undoing in 超 #66 - his eyes are too big for his belly.
  • For anyone with eyes to see, Moro is ultimately just a Thief, whatever his grandiose self-conception - and he is Incorrigible. He's the main villain in an arc that deals strongly in the theme of Stealing, and it's stated at the outset (超 #44) that his power is an aggregation of souls, which have been slaughtered and stolen by his magic. He steals the Dragon Balls from the Namekians (超 #46-48), and liberates his fellow-convicts - bandits all - to engage in an orgy of rapine across the Galaxy; his goons steal tangible treasures, and Moro steals the very life-force of the planets once they're finished. Ironically, when he "gifts" what he has stolen (Giving and Earning being two major related themes), it kills his henchman Saganbo, who has not earned the wherewithal to handle Moro's stolen gifts. And, of course, he thieves one of his own thieves: he consumes OG73-I to regain his own stolen power (once Vegeta has given that back to its true owners), and gains his "Copy Ability", which (as Jaco describes it) "steals" the abilities of others, and he uses it with abandon. In fact, all the underhanded ploys mentioned above are pressed into service to allow Moro to do what he does best - "stealing lives". Goku puts his finger on this in 超 #65, where he calls what Moro does just that. Goku also points out that this makes Moro much less than he might be otherwise; but he's an incorrigible scumbag - he resists even a token gesture of reformation when Goku offers the chance, and spurns it in favour of stealing anew, using the stolen Copy Ability to steal Merus's abilities. But he is undone by his own compulsion to steal, as he cannot handle the power either, and tries, in his most audacious (and desperate) caper, to steal the whole Earth so he can hang on to his ill-gotten gains. Even then, he doesn't stop stealing, consuming the energy of all on Earth - he even steals energy quicker than Vegeta can take it back, even though it is driving him insane and killing him.
  So, that's what I get of Moro's character. He's a thief to the end, and that (his incorrigibility), mixed with his compulsion to devour and predate on others (his insatiableness), overrides his natural serpentine caution and cunning to steal things he can't handle, hastening his own end. While the inspirations drawn from Piccolo Daimao are many and obvious, I think there's enough here to say that Moro has his own, relatively satisfying and well-constructed arc that make his vices both the centre of his strength and yet the key to his undoing.

Re-reviewing it now, I still don't see there being any real points of contact between any of this stuff and what Cell is fundamentally about, except for the extremely general conviction of their own superiority (which is shared by almost all Dragon Ball villains). I don't see anything meaningfully "Cell-like" about what Moro is like as a character, or vice-versa.

Now, if you want to talk about Moro and his indebtedness to Piccolo Daimao, that's a whole other conversation.

I consider Moro in general to be an amalgamation of Piccolo Daimao and Cell, but by the time he absorbs 73, he just feels like he follows the same basic trend as Perfect Cell. For what it’s worth, I’d also say the same about Super Boo after he becomes intelligent. The bottom line is that Moro is just too derivative of past Dragon Ball villains for my taste.

[capsulecorp]

And you can always throw in your two penneth, and see who bites - what do you personally think of Moro?

Well, since you asked, I liked his story about as much as I liked any of Super, and a lot more than some of it! I especially enjoyed seeing Buu's fight, and the scenes with Uub were fantastic. I liked Merus, but his death fakeout was tacky and melodramatic in a way that felt very out of place.

As for Moro himself... there's not a lot to him, but I don't have a problem with that. He's similar to Cell in the sense that he's a very simple and "empty" character, but he's a perfect foil for the protagonists thematically.

[Peach]

I would love to actually SEE that though. Him eating his first planet or soul. And the insatiable hunger that followed.

SHOW, don't TELL.

We get 15 pages of backstory pretty directly showing us what Moro does and why he's so dangerous; what more is really needed? Surely the main story should be bearing the main weight of showing us what Moro is about, not the backstory. In my opinion, it does.

But insofar as you wanted to see the first feeding, I guess I'd ask why Moro's hunger is fundamentally different than the hunger of any other being? It's a basic instinct that doesn't necessarily admit of deeper psychological investigation. He's a magical monster operating on a higher (planetary) level of consumption, sure, but at base, Moro eats planets because he eats planets, just like you and I eat our food because we eat our food. One doesn't impute character-building significance to a baby's first meal; in that case, why would Moro's first meal necessarily be distinctly different from his three hundredth in trying to figure out what he's all about?

A backstory is only meaningful if it's shown, not exposed. With Majin Buu we actually saw him laying waste to the universe and kill the various Supreme Kais. No one cares about 2 lines of exposition.

Not in the manga, we weren't. We were told everything about Majin Buu's origins and backstory by Shin in passing, and shown almost literally nothing (2 panels, I believe - one depicting some dead people from his rampages across the galaxy while Shin is expositing on the subject, and later one showing Buu after he'd absorbed the Dai Kaioshin, thus explaining how Kid Buu is prior to Fat Buu and why they are different - again, more exposition), and that absence caused his character depiction in the arc basically no issues whatever. Cell's origins and reason for being, by contrast, are basically all there is to the character, and he's seriously uncompelling (just to use a random villain example).

Origin stories and backstories are seriously overrated, in my opinion. They mean nothing next to the thoroughgoing depiction of the character as depicted in the main context of the story being told.

Even Granolah already has more backstory than Moro since at least there was a flashback to the invasion of Planet Cereal, so let that sink in.

This simply isn't accurate - Moro has 15 pages of depicted backstory in Chapter 43, and currently Granolah has about 3 pages in Chapter 69, plus snippets of exposition here and there relating him to Monaito and the Heeters.

What we got is awful and less than the bare minimum. I wanted a chapter at least. Hell, multiple chapters would have been fantastic. We barely got any character interactions with Moro and any of his minions either, besides Cranberry.

In the end, he was a cheap knockoff of Perfect Cell. Who happened to be a planet eater. Right down to the design and the senzu bean.

[pepd]

One important problem with his magic is the way it's presented. As mentioned, his magic is mainly focused on consuming others, thing that goes well with its character and themes; and in retrospective it does reads that way, but as initially presented, it can (and for many did) create the expectation of more variety and focus on magic.
--

About backstory. Show don't tell.. what exactly? Because you simply cant show (or tell) everything. You have to choose what is worth showing.

They show fourteen pages of Moro's past fighting, eating planets and being imprisoned by Dai Kaioshin; that is way more than any other DB character, and IMO more than was needed.

One thing is Zamasu, whose path is part of the story; and other Moro, who (like Freeza) is pretty much established as a character and whose past does not serve the story and is just backstory; there it can be better "told" (quotations because the "tell" of "Show, don't tell" usually refer to the author telling) by other characters to focus on what is important or show other things like its impact on others.

[Magnificent Ponta]

What we got is awful and less than the bare minimum. I wanted a chapter at least. Hell, multiple chapters would have been fantastic.

Do any of the established Dragon Ball villains have even one Chapter of exclusive backstory depiction to themselves (even in 'old money', where a Chapter is just 15 pages long), let alone multiple chapters? I can't think of one (except perhaps Zamas, but I'd call that just 'story' rather than 'backstory' - at most, it's backstory by proxy by showing us how Zamas will turn out when we meet him in the future), so it hardly seems fair to call what we got "less than the bare minimum" - because, compared to what? I get that you may personally have liked it, but I question whether it would have served the story to spend literally several months on something that doesn't necessarily advance the plot or Moro's character depiction or current goals.

In the end, he was a cheap knockoff of Perfect Cell. Who happened to be a planet eater.

What planets does Cell (particularly Perfect Cell) eat? This seems like a real stretch of figurative language, to try to map Moro onto Cell where it really isn't appropriate.

We barely got any character interactions with Moro and any of his minions either, besides Cranberry.

I must agree with this, though - this is certainly a marked shortcoming in the story - while I like the interaction between Moro and Saganbo in Chapter 58 in particular, there isn't nearly enough of it, and the story could certainly have spared some of its ample space to characterise Moro and his mooks further.

by the time he absorbs 73, he just feels like he follows the same basic trend as Perfect Cell.

I liked Merus, but his death fakeout was tacky and melodramatic in a way that felt very out of place.

I think both of these observations are interesting, and in my opinion they are linked in a certain fashion - I think that, rather than Moro cribbing from Cell as a character at this point, as such, I feel that the plot runs 'meta-beats' that advance through the original plot of Dragon Ball, which is why we get echoes that are reminiscent of these things.

Merus's death might seem out of place and Moro may seem a bit Cell-y at this same point (transformed following an 'absorption' of an artificial life form, with some of the main cast's moves), but I guess if you consider the shared drama as linked to the general plot of the Cell arc at that point (as opposed to specifically any one character) then Merus's plea to Goku becomes directly intelligible, as a riff on #16 pleading something very similar to Gohan, followed in both instances (in their own ways) by a foretold transformation that is the final revelation of what was worked on earlier in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Similarly, later on with the instance of Uub gifting energy to a Genki Dama-like attack that contributes directly to the killing of a Moro who has degenerated into an insane giggling monster as an unintended consequence of trying to use a forgotten piece of himself to try to win the day (and Goku being gifted enough energy to win, to boot), the beats have moved on to make these things look more like the final battle with Kid Buu.

I don't think Moro settles on a 'Cell-esque' pattern as such throughout, because I think the 'meta-beats' of the plot move on to use and allude to new things about Dragon Ball's story in the resolution of the Moro arc's own plot (and consequently, Moro then ends up seeming more like Buu in that moment - he always maintains a Piccolo Daimao linkage as a character concept, though). Y'all don't have to agree on that, obviously; it's just my reading of it, and I hope the suggestion is of some interest.

As for Moro himself... there's not a lot to him, but I don't have a problem with that. He's similar to Cell in the sense that he's a very simple and "empty" character, but he's a perfect foil for the protagonists thematically.

The bottom line is that Moro is just too derivative of past Dragon Ball villains for my taste.

And both of these observations, to be sure, are certainly fair takes on him.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't think it was necessarily Cell's backstory itself that was flawed, but the presentation of it. Toriyama built up a seriously enticing mystery surrounding the character but botched it completely by having him give a long detailed summary of his entire backstory and motivation shortly after his iconic introduction. What I wouldn't give to see an alternate reality where Toriyama didn't feel the need to splurge out all his ideas in one go (seemingly more for his own retention in an already convoluted storyline) and we got a slow, well-done unravelling of Cell's character. It's a shame because conceptually, Cell's origin is quite interesting and served his arc well in my view, at least until his main motivation of absorbing the Androids was spent, then he just kinda... declines. Trunks' messing with time travel comes back to bite him again, Gero's overarching revenge plot spans multiple timelines, and each transformation parallels the protagonists in different ways. For an absolute last-minute addition to the plot, there's no denying Toriyama still pulled off something decent there.

Would Moro benefit from the same kind of hamfisted origin? Eh, probably not. We get a decent understanding of his character early on, though I would've liked to have seen more insight about his placement in the cosmic hierarchy. He was a big enough deal in his prime to threaten the Kaioshin Realm, yet his relationship with the gods doesn't feel very fleshed out. No interaction with Beerus was a waste. As it stands, he's kind of an anomaly, but not a hugely compelling one. I think what was more necessary was a better dynamic between Moro and the protagonists. He makes for a great thematic opposition to them in many ways, but his actual chemistry with them was lacking at best. I was always surprised that he cared enough to remember Vegeta's name, for example. I expected him to repeat Jiren's "nameless warrior" diss.

Not to dredge it up again, but I think Moro shares some similarities to both Cell and Buu in his predation. I would agree that Moro's appetite is more central to his character than them, but there was perhaps some inspiration from his predecessors. Cell was, after all, introduced as having consumed entire cities full of people one by one, and his M.O. was to effectively devour his two 'siblings'. Buu was an absolute pig with three settings: kill, eat and Satan worship. And doggo.

[WittyUsername]

Honestly, my personal ideal for a new Dragon Ball villain would be someone who’s essentially the polar opposite of Zamasu. In other words, a human/mortal who opposes the gods because they views the gods as a bunch of tyrannical murderers who have too much power. Unfortunately, Heroes already wasted that concept with Hearts.

[Majin Buu]

While Cell really gets by on his engaging gimmick/origin and design (deservedly iconic), I would ... kind of offer that Moro might actually be more compelling on the page.

Cell really lives and dies on Wakamoto’s gleefully hammy voice work.

Both are probably my least favorite main antagonists of their respective series though.

Agreed on all counts. Out of the primary Z villains, Cell is the most style over substance.

And it sounds like Moro is similar: Concept over substance, so the Cell comparisons seem apt to me. Cell is lacking in interesting characterization but gets by on his cool design and an a iconic performance in the anime. Moro sounds like he operates on a similar dynamic in that he's interesting in concept: An evil wizard with fighting ability (Babidi mk II) that defeats the heroes through intelligence and cunning more than raw power. Not an original trait, Cell and Buu pulled that off in their own ways, but Moro seems to provide a somewhat new take as he does it in a way that forces the heroes to switch up how they typically approach these arc villains.

But from what I've read, that set up doesn't result in a particularly interesting character. Zamasu, and even Jiren at least represented new types of antagonists for Dragon Ball ("Well Intentioned" Extremist and Hero Antagonist respectively). Moro in contrast is an amalgamation of previous villain traits that ends up lacking an interesting personality, similar to Cell. But I think it's worth noting that compared to Zamasu and Jiren, the former's goals at least having a certain twisted logic and the latter at least having done genuine good as an actual superhero, Moro comes off as a "lowest of the low" type of character with no possible way to put any positive or sympathetic spin on his nature as a gluttonous planet eater. Perhaps Moro works as a character in that context.

[Cipher]

But from what I've read, that set up doesn't result in a particularly interesting character. Zamasu, and even Jiren at least represented new types of antagonists for Dragon Ball ("Well Intentioned" Extremist and Hero Antagonist respectively). Moro in contrast is an amalgamation of previous villain traits that ends up lacking an interesting personality, similar to Cell. But I think it's worth noting that compared to Zamasu and Jiren, the former's goals at least having a certain twisted logic and the latter at least having done genuine good as an actual superhero, Moro comes off as a "lowest of the low" type of character with no possible way to put any positive or sympathetic spin on his nature as a gluttonous planet eater. Perhaps Moro works as a character in that context.

It’s a little aside from the topic, but I wouldn’t necessarily say Jiren represents a new bent on antagonists for the series. Neither version really does anything with his nominal superhero status.

Rather, I think he’s the best take on the powerful, self-assured tournament antagonist who learns a lesson during the event itself that Tenshinhan and Hit both fall into—mostly by taking that to its logical extremes and also being, at least in the manga, part of a more thematically focused arc. (Not necessarily a better arc, as I hesitate to call any arc in Super better than any in the original series for a variety of reasons, but a more thematically focused one that probably helps Jiren feel like the best execution of the Tenshinhan archetype.)

[Majin Buu]

It’s a little aside from the topic, but I wouldn’t necessarily say Jiren represents a new bent on antagonists for the series. Neither version really does anything with his nominal superhero status.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that the execution of his character is flawed (I think an ideal version of him would mix elements from both his anime and manga versions), but I think that aspect of him is noteworthy enough. Not only is he a superhero that isn't a joke character like Suppaman or Great Saiyaman, but being a nominal antagonist as well makes him an interesting contrast to Goku and his nature as a nominal hero. Granted this is extrapolated from what's on the page, but even then, there's at least something interesting about his character there to chew on.

That being said, it doesn't say anything good about Moro's appeal as a character that Jiren, a character with a reputation for being a blank slate, could so easily sidetrack this discussion thread.

Rather, I think he’s the best take on the powerful, self-assured tournament antagonist who learns a lesson during the event itself that Tenshinhan and Hit both fall into—mostly by taking that to its logical extremes and also being, at least in the manga, part of a more thematically focused arc. (Not necessarily a better arc, as I hesitate to call any arc in Super better than any in the original series for a variety of reasons, but a more thematically focused one that probably helps Jiren feel like the best execution of the Tenshinhan archetype.)

Agreed.

[Cipher]

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that the execution of his character is flawed (I think an ideal version of him would mix elements from both his anime and manga versions), but I think that aspect of him is noteworthy enough. Not only is he a superhero that isn't a joke character like Suppaman or Great Saiyaman, but being a nominal antagonist as well makes him an interesting contrast to Goku and his nature as a nominal hero. Granted this is extrapolated from what's on the page, but even then, there's at least something interesting about his character there to chew on.

Oh, I like Jiren! I just mean the superhero premise isn't really a significant part of his characterization in either version. The fact that he's part of a team is used to set up and play off of other elements, but his being a do-gooder doesn't much come up, or need to.

I suppose it is at least a minor difference from Hit and Tenshinhan (who are both, like, objectively pretty bad people outside of the ring) that Jiren is at least acting in the interest of the public good, whatever his motivations might be.

[omaro34]

Honestly, my personal ideal for a new Dragon Ball villain would be someone who’s essentially the polar opposite of Zamasu. In other words, a human/mortal who opposes the gods because they views the gods as a bunch of tyrannical murderers who have too much power. Unfortunately, Heroes already wasted that concept with Hearts.

Good idea, but how in the world would he have the power to fight against someone like the Grand Priest? Or even Zeno? And why would Goku and Vegeta fight a battle that doesn't really concern them since this villain's hatred isn't about them?

[Alruneia]

Honestly, my personal ideal for a new Dragon Ball villain would be someone who’s essentially the polar opposite of Zamasu. In other words, a human/mortal who opposes the gods because they views the gods as a bunch of tyrannical murderers who have too much power. Unfortunately, Heroes already wasted that concept with Hearts.

Good idea, but how in the world would he have the power to fight against someone like the Grand Priest? Or even Zeno? And why would Goku and Vegeta fight a battle that doesn't really concern them since this villain's hatred isn't about them?

I don't know about the power part, since the sky's the limit, but as for why the villain would be against Goku and Vegeta, he could for example find it repulsive that the two are training with a GoD and an angel to grow stronger, even using their unique techniques as their aces-in-the-hole. Goku and Vegeta would probably also be pushed to the divine side of the conflict because of cast connections (Goku is even friends with Zeno after all), and there you go, an excuse for them to fight.

Also, I disagree with the idea that Super can't do something like that just because of SDBH's Hearts character. I think Super's Broly sets the precedent there, showing that they can override and overwrite whichever non-canon character they want.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know exactly how the execution for such a villain would work. All I know is that it’d be nice for the story to actually address how questionable and terrifying the deities of the Dragon Ball world are.

[The Golden God]

No, I wouldn't say Moro's potential is wasted. As an arc instrument, Moro is effective, and he relies a lot on his cribbing from Piccolo Daimao to work in that sense and to intersect effectively with Goku's character arc in particular (and the OP later rightly notes his reliance on Piccolo - I don't agree so much with equal claim being made for Cell; I think the comparisons are generally overdrawn). But as a character, Moro is "about" two main things - namely, predation and theft. I think the conflicted sense the OP has of Moro is at least partially down to the interaction between these two distinct character features.

As a predator, Moro is ominous, insatiable, and relentlessly focused. These character features run through the arc so prevalently that he doesn't appear to be interested in anything else, and it also sits at the root of a sense of malevolent grandiosity that he projects: he's supreme, because he predates on everything; he's top of the cosmic food chain. On the one hand, these aspects make him a consistently menacing and sinister presence, but they also make him a little bit 'one-note' at times.

But as a thief, Moro's grandiosity is undercut and he is revealed as a petty, incorrigible pretender who's just using the real power of others to make himself a threat. On the one hand, this interferes with his consistent sense of menace because it shows him to be much less than he appears to be when compared with Goku and Vegeta, but on the other hand, that is the whole point of him: strip away the predatory instinct and the superior bluster, and Moro is "just a sneaky coward" (as Goku puts it), using the stolen power of others to achieve what he can't do on his own (as Vegeta notes). He doesn't put in the work, and what he has isn't his own.

Moro, like many of Dragon Ball Super's antagonists, comes a cropper because of the flaws in his character, and his incorrigible thievery is the 'true face' of what appears to be intimidating predation, and it catches up with him once Goku surpasses him, as he compulsively relies on the character flaw that has served him so well in the earlier points of the arc - only 'thieving bigger', which is what causes his downfall. I think it works well, and I also think that those who wish his magical power was about something other than taking other people's ki miss this crucial point: this ability is both predation and mere theft in a single action, and as such stems fundamentally from, and is a key vehicle of, his characterisation overall.

So, I think the fanbase generally could stand to look a little more kindly on Moro as a character; he's got more going on than first appears, and I think his character is mostly well-used. However, the potential of the Saganbo Bandit Brigade definitely is wasted, and this necessarily has a knock-on effect for Moro, as he takes a backseat to them for the middle chunk of his own arc, only to really re-emerge as a presence and a force in the Third Act, after a pretty effective First Act - and for me, that really is a problem.

Interesting breakdown. But the fact Moro has to literally absorb energy from creatures and planets to achieve if full power reminds me a lot of Imperfect Cell, and the fact he eats some android dude and transforms into some ultimate form was a human face is also a dead ringer for Perfect Cell.

[The Golden God]

Absolutely.

Toyotaro should have stuck with the whole old goat wizard gimmick Moro initially and should have just gone all out with it. Like... full-blown psychedelic Dr Strange/John Constantine-esque cosmic horror shit. Or have a unique and quirky twist to his magic abilities, like Majin Boo. But beyond even Moro's gimmick, he was just boring to watch. He had no interesting dynamic or personal chemistry with anybody he interacted with. He's Dragon Ball Generic Doomsday Villain #371. A character that feels like he was ripped right our of the Toei Dragon Ball Z movies in the 90s. Been there, done that, seen better.

This, his intro hinted at him being a cosmic horror type villain with psychological horror aspects to him but he just ended up being a guy who absorbs energy and uses telekinesis sometimes, both things we’ve seen and both things which aren’t necessarily creepy or unnerving. The mystery behind him and his powers quickly dissipated once he formally introduced himself and began his series of transformation.

[The Golden God]

Moro was initially built up as being this hellish-sorcerer who was to be feared by all; DB's(possible) journey into eldritch horror. Unfortunately, what we got descended back down into typical DB fashion by being just another strong guy who fought with his fists.
Very much so-wasted potential.

The Eldritch Horror stylings of, say, Lovecraft, is fine for what it is. But I must confess I can hardly think of a type of fiction less suited to Dragon Ball's tone and ethos than that brand of deranged nihilism, so I find it mystifying that it can count as a mark against Moro's depiction that it doesn't follow this route.

Dragon Ball Super is, for all its arc-specific trappings, a relatively straightforward battle comic in the style of its predecessor; it should be allowed to be true to itself without incurring negative judgements for not trying to be something else, in my opinion.

My one misgiving with Moro that I haven’t seen brought up in this thread is that the story has him lose his coherence prior to defeat. To his credit, he’s well-characterized enough to at least be genuinely dislikable and for the reader to want to see him get his comeuppance. And while we do get that with his loss to UI Goku, it feels like a slight shame he isn’t mentally present at the end to really process his defeat.

Quite aside from the Buu-inspired meta elements I believe are going on at that point in the arc, I think Dragon Ball Super is much more into the idea of the bad guy's flaws being what ruins them than original Dragon Ball was. So Moro tries obsessively to hold on to his ill-gotten gains, beyond his personal capacity to do so (and having 'eyes bigger than his stomach', continues to use it to try to gorge himself), and in so doing it robs him of even the things that are legitimately his own, like his own intellect and cunning. Just as much as Goku overcomes Moro by his virtues, Moro defeats himself by his own vices.

I think that the route chosen gives the reader a little more than we might lose from not having seen a point where the reality of defeat truly hits home for Moro.

Well they were approaching the cosmic horror lovecraft stuff with the Zamasu arc, especially with Zeno obliterating the entire universe in the end, only for it and all the life within it NOT being wished back. Pretty creepy stuff.

[Mac]

I loved the start of the Moro arc, but it went classic dragon ball with too many forms and making him buff and boring and it ruined the character. It doesn't help that his magic wasn't interesting either. They should've leaned in more with him being more horror/magic then fighting based.

[kemuri07]

Absolutely.

Toyotaro should have stuck with the whole old goat wizard gimmick Moro initially and should have just gone all out with it. Like... full-blown psychedelic Dr Strange/John Constantine-esque cosmic horror shit. Or have a unique and quirky twist to his magic abilities, like Majin Boo. But beyond even Moro's gimmick, he was just boring to watch. He had no interesting dynamic or personal chemistry with anybody he interacted with. He's Dragon Ball Generic Doomsday Villain #371. A character that feels like he was ripped right our of the Toei Dragon Ball Z movies in the 90s. Been there, done that, seen better.

This, his intro hinted at him being a cosmic horror type villain with psychological horror aspects to him but he just ended up being a guy who absorbs energy and uses telekinesis sometimes, both things we’ve seen and both things which aren’t necessarily creepy or unnerving. The mystery behind him and his powers quickly dissipated once he formally introduced himself and began his series of transformation.

This is ultimately the issue with DB at large--people expect a certain thing when they read a manga. So Toyo's hands are tied. I appreciate that he's clearly trying to play with expectations and, particularly with the latest arc, is drawing on contemporary shounen in order to tell this current arc. But at the end of the day--it's still Dragon Ball. And that's not going to change no matter how much we wish we did.

[ClutchBangstrip]

No. Considering Moro ranks higher than every major DB villain besides Black and Frieza in the most recent popularity polls, he obviously fulfilled whatever purpose he was designed for... In spades. Not to mention Moro was the 1st villain who was so amoral and ruthless, despite being immensely powerful, Goku lost all pleasure in fighting him.

Even Frieza "decently" maintained a "Code" in the midst of battle. Say what you want, but the goat was a game changer.