"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jack Bz]

Either way, we get Draft Pages in 2 days so we should see the fruits of Vegeta's Training. Given Beerus Taugh Vegeta this, I think its safe to assume that Vegeta's New Power is the reason why Beerus is still above the two saiyans despite being below Belmod who's below Jiren.

Beerus isn't below Belmod in the manga. The anime states that Beerus lost an arm wrestle to Belmod, but in the manga he lost an arm wrestle to Quitela instead

[Koitsukai]

Either way, we get Draft Pages in 2 days so we should see the fruits of Vegeta's Training. Given Beerus Taugh Vegeta this, I think its safe to assume that Vegeta's New Power is the reason why Beerus is still above the two saiyans despite being below Belmod who's below Jiren.

Beerus is THE hakaishin, alongside Quitela, in the manga. Vermouth isn't remarkable in the manga, you are thinking about the anime.

[HeroR]

Either way, we get Draft Pages in 2 days so we should see the fruits of Vegeta's Training. Given Beerus Taugh Vegeta this, I think its safe to assume that Vegeta's New Power is the reason why Beerus is still above the two saiyans despite being below Belmod who's below Jiren.

Beerus is THE hakaishin, alongside Quitela, in the manga. Vermouth isn't remarkable in the manga, you are thinking about the anime.

Not sure how Quitela is remarkable when we didn’t see him do anything. Just that he was still standing while being just as black and blue as Beerus. Belmond actually trapped all the gods at one point. And if Beerus was so remarkable stronger than the other gods, who exactly beat him to the point that he covered in blood? Same with Quitela.

[Koitsukai]

Either way, we get Draft Pages in 2 days so we should see the fruits of Vegeta's Training. Given Beerus Taugh Vegeta this, I think its safe to assume that Vegeta's New Power is the reason why Beerus is still above the two saiyans despite being below Belmod who's below Jiren.

Beerus is THE hakaishin, alongside Quitela, in the manga. Vermouth isn't remarkable in the manga, you are thinking about the anime.

Not sure how Quitela is remarkable when we didn’t see him do anything. Just that he was still standing while being just as black and blue as Beerus. Belmond actually trapped all the gods at one point. And if Beerus was so remarkable stronger than the other gods, who exactly beat him to the point that he covered in blood? Same with Quitela.

Nobody actually beat them, lol that's the point. Being the final two still standing amongst 12 hakaishin is remarkable enough. He also defeated Beerus in a strenght contest, so...

[HeroR]

Beerus is THE hakaishin, alongside Quitela, in the manga. Vermouth isn't remarkable in the manga, you are thinking about the anime.

Not sure how Quitela is remarkable when we didn’t see him do anything. Just that he was still standing while being just as black and blue as Beerus. Belmond actually trapped all the gods at one point. And if Beerus was so remarkable stronger than the other gods, who exactly beat him to the point that he covered in blood? Same with Quitela.

Nobody actually beat them, lol that's the point. Being the final two still standing amongst 12 hakaishin is remarkable enough. He also defeated Beerus in a strenght contest, so...

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

[Xeogran]

Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

Yeah but as you said it's only because Belmod played dirty. We don't know if he could take either of them in an actual fight.

[Koitsukai]

Not sure how Quitela is remarkable when we didn’t see him do anything. Just that he was still standing while being just as black and blue as Beerus. Belmond actually trapped all the gods at one point. And if Beerus was so remarkable stronger than the other gods, who exactly beat him to the point that he covered in blood? Same with Quitela.

Nobody actually beat them, lol that's the point. Being the final two still standing amongst 12 hakaishin is remarkable enough. He also defeated Beerus in a strenght contest, so...

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

You just proved my point. Vermouth can only beat them by hiding and kicking them when they are down... actually that outcome is just your headcanon, we have yet to see that happen. And even so, how would that put him above Beerus and Quitela is beyond me.

Meanwhile, Quitela beat Beerus in a strenght contest, punched the lights out of, at least, Iwen and nobody was strong enough to put him down.

[Thani]

Nobody actually beat them, lol that's the point. Being the final two still standing amongst 12 hakaishin is remarkable enough. He also defeated Beerus in a strenght contest, so...

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

You just proved my point. Vermouth can only beat them by hiding and kicking them when they are down... actually that outcome is just your headcanon, we have yet to see that happen. And even so, how would that put him above Beerus and Quitela is beyond me.

Meanwhile, Quitela beat Beerus in a strenght contest, punched the lights out of, at least, Iwen and nobody was strong enough to put him down.

But a Battle Royale is a horrible way to judge strength. Belmod did trap every single GoD in his bubbles and did hurt every one of them with his cards. Quitela put down Iwen but we also don't know how tired and hurt Iwen was before that point, nor if he was fighting Quitela the whole time.

Meanwhile Belmod took a direct hit by Liquur, who break free of the bubble trap through sheer power, and was uninjured. Meanwhile Heles' arrow was strong enough to pierce Liquur's skin. And they were all stunned by Rumuush's roar. And Beerus clowned them all with his proto-UI.

There are so many variables to a Battle Royale and, as Goku put it, we could keep track of so little of it, that it really doesn't matter for a point of comparison beyond "they roughly can kick each other's asses".

[Koitsukai]

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

You just proved my point. Vermouth can only beat them by hiding and kicking them when they are down... actually that outcome is just your headcanon, we have yet to see that happen. And even so, how would that put him above Beerus and Quitela is beyond me.

Meanwhile, Quitela beat Beerus in a strenght contest, punched the lights out of, at least, Iwen and nobody was strong enough to put him down.

But a Battle Royale is a horrible way to judge strength. Belmod did trap every single GoD in his bubbles and did hurt every one of them with his cards. Quitela put down Iwen but we also don't know how tired and hurt Iwen was before that point, nor if he was fighting Quitela the whole time.

Meanwhile Belmod took a direct hit by Liquur, who break free of the bubble trap through sheer power, and was uninjured. Meanwhile Heles' arrow was strong enough to pierce Liquur's skin. And they were all stunned by Rumuush's roar. And Beerus clowned them all with his proto-UI.

There are so many variables to a Battle Royale and, as Goku put it, we could keep track of so little of it, that it really doesn't matter for a point of comparison beyond "they roughly can kick each other's asses".

Granted, most of Beerus being above the rest of them by a large margin comes from the growth of the protagonists and still being behind the guy, not so much for the chaotic Battle Royale, and Quitela rides that train for being rivals with him, having been implied to be physically stronger, and well the outcome of the BR does not hurt his case, I guess.
Which is more than what Vermouth has going on for him, when even Jiren is below Goku now. My argument was never based on a panel-to-panel scrutiny.

[DiscountDabi]

Ok, Going off topic a Little Bit but...How have I never seen this Alternate Volume 5 Cover? I was just looking up Rage Trunks Pictures for a Project and Here it is:

Spoiler:

[Thani]

Granted, most of Beerus being above the rest of them by a large margin comes from the growth of the protagonists and still being behind the guy, not so much for the chaotic Battle Royale, and Quitela rides that train for being rivals with him, having been implied to be physically stronger, and well the outcome of the BR does not hurt his case, I guess.
Which is more than what Vermouth has going on for him, when even Jiren is below Goku now. My argument was never based on a panel-to-panel scrutiny.

This is fair, and I have to concede to it, despite not really appreciating the narrative implications of this creative decision on Toyo's/Tori's part.

[TKA]

But Toyotarou wouldn't be the hypothetical layman, he would be a different architect coming in, almost as equipped as the original one to take care of the building.

Yeah I’m not playing these word games. You can choose to understand or you can choose not to. In your reply you even said “almost”, which is the point I’ve been making. Nobody will ever be able to fill a creator’s shoes.

Also, Toyotaro is far from “almost as equipped” as Toriyama. It doesn’t help that the creator of Dragonball is one of the best storytellers of the past century.

[HeroR]

Nobody actually beat them, lol that's the point. Being the final two still standing amongst 12 hakaishin is remarkable enough. He also defeated Beerus in a strenght contest, so...

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

You just proved my point. Vermouth can only beat them by hiding and kicking them when they are down... actually that outcome is just your headcanon, we have yet to see that happen. And even so, how would that put him above Beerus and Quitela is beyond me.

Meanwhile, Quitela beat Beerus in a strenght contest, punched the lights out of, at least, Iwen and nobody was strong enough to put him down.

There is no real evidence of that. It only shows that Belmond read the room and played it smart. Namely, he didn't have to beat everyone in the arena. He just have to wait for everyone to beat the shit out of each other and then just take out what was left. Of course, Dragon Ball fans thinks anyone who goes the crafty route instead of going full meat head is naturally weak. It also doesn't put him above Beerus or Quitela power-wise, but he showed that of all the gods he was the smartest in that situation. So Belmond was impressive, just not in the way that everyone cares about because this is Dragon Ball, who cares if you're smarter than your opponent.

And you think Belmond is so weak that he can't even take out Beerus when he can barely run? That and arm wrestling isn't even a strength contest, at least not completely: https://www.coachmag.co.uk/exercises/sp ... mwrestling

And you still didn't answer how Beerus and Quitela can be so above everyone and yet still get beating to the point that they're bruised and bloody.

[Luso Saiyan]

The creator knows the ways in which to make changes without the world they made crumbling, and in fact enriching that world. It was their baby, born from a mind crafted by their specific life experiences; they have a relationship with the work that no other person can ever have. An architect knows what beams a house can do without, while a layman might take out the wrong one and have the whole thing crumble.

Very well-put.

[Koitsukai]

They were bruised and cover in blood, so if they were so much stronger than the others who hurt then to that extent. And Belmond was also in the ‘final’ since he played dead and was fresh. Meaning Beerus and Quitela could beat one another and Belmond can easily take out the last man standing. Meaning, Belmond could have easily punked both of them.

You just proved my point. Vermouth can only beat them by hiding and kicking them when they are down... actually that outcome is just your headcanon, we have yet to see that happen. And even so, how would that put him above Beerus and Quitela is beyond me.

Meanwhile, Quitela beat Beerus in a strenght contest, punched the lights out of, at least, Iwen and nobody was strong enough to put him down.

There is no real evidence of that. It only shows that Belmond read the room and played it smart. Namely, he didn't have to beat everyone in the arena. He just have to wait for everyone to beat the shit out of each other and then just take out what was left. Of course, Dragon Ball fans thinks anyone who goes the crafty route instead of going full meat head is naturally weak. It also doesn't put him above Beerus or Quitela power-wise, but he showed that of all the gods he was the smartest in that situation. So Belmond was impressive, just not in the way that everyone cares about because this is Dragon Ball, who cares if you're smarter than your opponent.

And you think Belmond is so weak that he can't even take out Beerus when he can barely run? That and arm wrestling isn't even a strength contest, at least not completely: https://www.coachmag.co.uk/exercises/sp ... mwrestling

And you still didn't answer how Beerus and Quitela can be so above everyone and yet still get beating to the point that they're bruised and bloody.

I never said they were so above everyone based on the BR, I said in the manga Quitela is the one to have been implied to be stronger than Beerus, while in the anime it was Vermouth. And Beerus apparently is so above everyone because of still being above Goku who by the past arc was already head and shoulders above U11's strongest battle power.

And you do know they were fighting everybody, right? specially Beerus. And Quitela happens to have been implied to be stronger physically and considered to be his rival... and they happened to be the last men standing without playing dead.

But if you think not being the strongest in your universe and playing dead > fighting and making it to the end and defeating Beerus in an arm wrestling, then sure, why not? have it your way.

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, Vermoud’s approach is supposed to be a hint of what Freeza would do after Goku, Vegeta and Jiren got weaker. The difference is that Jiren still had a good deal of strength to spare, so Freeza had to give up on his plan.

[LoganForkHands73]

Regarding that interview, I don't blame Toyo for being reluctant to promote changes to the established lore without Toriyama's suggestion or consent. As much as I would like the story to take more risks, Toyotaro and Toriyama are working collaboratively on this and, considering Japan's worker culture, a relative rookie dismissing the opinions of an elder or superior in the workplace is classed as extreme disrespect. Plus, Toyotaro is still a fan at the end of the day, he practically worships the ground Toriyama-sensei walks on. Toyotaro's hesitancy about making a new set of Dragon Balls seems a bit arbitrary, but more drastic additions like retconning the Namekians' origins really ought to be the call of the original creator. While fans are guaranteed to fit and piss about retcons no matter what (real or imagined), it seems that the input of the original creator can help soften the blow, more so than when another person tries to force them in.

However, judging by the other comments made, it seems Toriyama is trying to nurture Toyotaro and get him to take more solo initiative with the story, so it's not like Toriyama is acting as some bureaucratic impediment. He's trying to help. I don't begrudge Toyo for designing the Granola arc as he did, because while a Saiyan revenge plot isn't exactly new, he at least had the personal desire to tell that kind of story with his own twists, which is more comforting than him being made to write something he isn't enthusiastic about (a sense I got from some of the earlier arcs, at times).

[emperior]

More than ever I realized just how important Toriyama is through his Heeters addition, who fit the DB world perfectly. Elec is already among my favorite characters among the new ones introduced in Super. Toriyama basically took what seemed like a quite uninspiring story (if it was just based on Granolah) and truly made it hundred of times better. It also seems like all the Heeters stuff was basically written by Toriyama which is also why they are the ones moving the plot forward.

Hopefully the next chapter will be more than just Vegeta vs Granolah and will start revealing something about Gas and the 10 questions the Heeters asked to Zuno.

[Koitsukai]

Hopefully the next chapter will be more than just Vegeta vs Granolah and will start revealing something about Gas and the 10 questions the Heeters asked to Zuno.

Oh, this. I really want the plot to move forward and see what's in store with all these people. The Heetas, Freeza, 7-3, Zuno... what's Granola going to do?

[picc]

Proposition: Would this arc be more powerful if the last time we saw Freeza was the Tournament of Power? This arc leans heavily on building up a mystery surrounding Freeza and his presumed eventual appearance, but considering that we've seen him and his fledgling empire already in Super: Broly and even a brief cameo in the Moro arc, we have a frame of reference that Freeza probably hasn't changed significantly since those arcs. Of course, there's every possibility that there is no build up for any significant change (whether that be some new transformation, his army growing in numbers or something different entirely), but it feels like the arc is withholding Freeza for some big reveal. Maybe if we didn't see Freeza at all after Zeno's toybox game, the suspense of wondering what Freeza's been up to since then would be more compelling.

It doesn't help that Freeza -- and this isn't necessarily a criticism -- was treated as a bit of a joke in Broly. Is it too late to rebuild his fearsome reputation?

You really think any of that is going to stop AT from making Freeza powerful enough to be a threat if it fits his story?

Finally someone who understands Toriyama's writing

I'm saying! Anyone who follows Dragonball Super knows that man doesn't give a single crap about what makes sense if he has a story he wants to tell. It is what it is.