Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

While the power displayed on the movie was officially surpassed by Moro73, when Broly comes back he will definitely be strong enough to reclaim the first place.
That's DB, Freeza and 17 are living proof that you get a huge boost when you get to comeback, in Broly's case, his boost will make more sense considering his zenkai and that he might have been training with Goku or on his own, or under Freeza.

I guess Goku should surpass Beerus after this arc is done, but if hakai does provide a limitless power well, then maybe he'll never surpass Beerus. But I would like Goku to do so by the time the movie takes place.

[Berserker1921]

After seeing the interview. I had a thought that maybe Beerus had been secretly training from the ToP to now. I mean it would make sense. And won’t mess up people’s old power scalings. I mean he’s known to lie. And Whis does cover for him. And the saiyans aren’t always there on his planet. So when he is “sleeping”, he could training. For my list.

1. Beerus
2. Granolah
3. Goku/Vegeta
4. SsjB Gogeta
5. Moro7-3/Jiren (ToP)
6. Broly

If and when Broly or Jiren return. They will probably be up higher on the list.

[AtlasFlame18]

Do you all think what was meant was that Broly is stronger than them but Toyotaro is saying that Granolah, Goku and Vegeta are the top 3 for the arc because Broly most likely isn't showing up? The editors of the video went out of their way to put Broly in the video and that definitely needed some sort of approval. I think what was intended was that Broly is stronger than them but for this arc the top is our trio.

[LightBing]

After seeing the interview. I had a thought that maybe Beerus had been secretly training from the ToP to now.

That might be one of the excuses if they bother justifying anything.

It would be incredibly out-of-character. The character is literally a lazy cat who sleeps for thousands of years at a time.

[Koitsukai]

Do you all think what was meant was that Broly is stronger than them but Toyotaro is saying that Granolah, Goku and Vegeta are the top 3 for the arc because Broly most likely isn't showing up? The editors of the video went out of their way to put Broly in the video and that definitely needed some sort of approval. I think what was intended was that Broly is stronger than them but for this arc the top is our trio.

Nah, Broly was surpassed officially by Moro73. Besides, even if that weren't true, the dragon clearly stated that he could make Granola the strongest bar the gods, so the power he received is above everybody else's.

If anything, it might imply that Broly actually will show up and surpass Granolah, but the power he displayed in the movie still being above current Goku is not possible, he surpassed that by a big margin in the previous arc.

[Skar]

It would be incredibly out-of-character. The character is literally a lazy cat who sleeps for thousands of years at a time.

He did have to train to become a God of Destruction. He could've grown bored over time because there isn't anyone close to his power and Whis might be too far out of his reach as an Angel. Goku could've been the first person in his universe since Beerus was chosen for the role that encouraged him to train.

[LightBing]

It would be incredibly out-of-character. The character is literally a lazy cat who sleeps for thousands of years at a time.

He did have to train to become a God of Destruction. He could've grown bored over time because there isn't anyone close to his power and Whis might be too far out of his reach as an Angel. Goku could've been the first person in his universe since Beerus was chosen for the role that encouraged him to train.

I also assume he had to train, it's mentioned he hasn't mastered UI(Goku should have surpassed him then but alas).

Unfortunately we don't know the process of becoming an Hakaishin, I think Beerus did and does the bare minimum.
All that gets a raise from him is if someone might replace him. Since he's training Vegeta just to spite Goku, currently neither of the Saiyans should be close to him at all.

Going by Beerus is a prodigy and training for 4 months will get him duper strong might also be an excuse. Champa is also strong, they might just be another family of mutants like Cold and Freeza.

[Skar]

Going by Beerus is a prodigy and training for 4 months will get him duper strong might also be an excuse. Champa is also strong, they might just be another family of mutants like Cold and Freeza.

That's possible. Beerus is at least 75 million years old since he sealed Old Kai so for all we know he could've trained for tens of millions of years then grew bored and slacked off for the last few million years. Beerus not training for a few million years could be equivalent to a decade or so for a regular human.

[Koitsukai]

I think it's definitely possible that Goku's progress was a wake up call for Beerus. In just a couple of months (FT arc, ToP, Moro arc) Goku accomplished stuff that deserved his respect and he even showed it.
Goku attaining UI is something Beerus isn't too comfortable with, to the point he chose to take a student. Resuming training or not, he already has gotten off his lazy ass due to Goku.

It could also be possible that he no longer needs to train(aside of mastering UI) because hakai provides limitless power, so he can always rely on that to augment his power.
If his regular power was a car, then it might not be the greatest car (on par with Broly's) compared to Goku's but he does have a turbocharger that wins him the race. Vegeta now has one too but it isn't as good.

[Berserker1921]

It would be incredibly out-of-character. The character is literally a lazy cat who sleeps for thousands of years at a time.

He did have to train to become a God of Destruction. He could've grown bored over time because there isn't anyone close to his power and Whis might be too far out of his reach as an Angel. Goku could've been the first person in his universe since Beerus was chosen for the role that encouraged him to train.

I also assume he had to train, it's mentioned he hasn't mastered UI(Goku should have surpassed him then but alas).

Unfortunately we don't know the process of becoming an Hakaishin, I think Beerus did and does the bare minimum.
All that gets a raise from him is if someone might replace him. Since he's training Vegeta just to spite Goku, currently neither of the Saiyans should be close to him at all.

Going by Beerus is a prodigy and training for 4 months will get him duper strong might also be an excuse. Champa is also strong, they might just be another family of mutants like Cold and Freeza.

I mean it’s not crazy to assume that he had been secretly training from after ToP arc till now. I mean it can fit. I mean Broly takes place a couple weeks to a couple months after ToP. From Broly to Moro is about the same timeframe. Then add the 2 months for training against Moro. Another month or so after that, the Granolah arc started. And another 2-4 months of training to lead to where we are now. Best case scenario, Beerus had been training for close to a year. It could explain this power gain and not mess with the old scaling. He saw Goku and Vegeta reaching close to his level or maybe surpassed it as MUI. That motivated him to train, to keep him at the top.

[BWri]

It could also be possible that he no longer needs to train(aside of mastering UI) because hakai provides limitless power, so he can always rely on that to augment his power.
If his regular power was a car, then it might not be the greatest car (on par with Broly's) compared to Goku's but he does have a turbocharger that wins him the race. Vegeta now has one too but it isn't as good.

There might be something to this. I think Toppo says as much when he says that Jiren is stronger than Belmod "Based on combat skill alone ..." Leaves some wiggle room for Belmod to be stronger while using his GoD powers.

[DiscountDabi]

Can somebody Calc This?

Spoiler:

We got a similar feat from Yuzun in the Moro arc, but this one should be easier to calc since it appears to be made of Brick and he got a better astablishing shot to gauge its size.

[Koitsukai]

Broly must be really strong, if he is still above limit breaker Granola that beat Megainstinct Vegeta.

[LightBing]

Well Vegeta is stronger than Goku that much is true.

Compared to Granolah it's hard to say without knowing how his Ultra Ego actually works.
He was pretty much even but most of the hits Vegeta took were on purpose; it doesn't seem like his power increased that much from them?

The damage probably bleed out much of the power increase, if it follows basic Dragon Ball rules where damage weakens people.

[HeroR]

Well Vegeta is stronger than Goku that much is true.

Compared to Granolah it's hard to say without knowing how his Ultra Ego actually works.
He was pretty much even but most of the hits Vegeta took were on purpose; it doesn't seem like his power increased that much from them?

The damage probably bleed out much of the power increase, if it follows basic Dragon Ball rules where damage weakens people.

Not sure how you can say Vegeta is stronger when Granolah purposely waited for Goku to get weaker before he attacked him with his true body and knocked him out by hitting his pressure point which is pretty much what anime Hit does.

[LightBing]

Not sure how you can say Vegeta is stronger when Granolah purposely waited for Goku to get weaker before he attacked him with his true body and knocked him out by hitting his pressure point which is pretty much what anime Hit does.

Granolah attacked Vegeta with his pressure point as well and the latter withstood it, even kinda catching it. This before he went Ultra Ego.

But even ignoring that, narratively speaking the story tells us Vegeta did better.
For Goku he had to pull his full-power. For Vegeta he had to evolve during battle and unlock a second red eye.
Plus one fight clearly ended in one chapter and the other is still open.

Fortunately techniques seems to be the bread and butter of this arc. Power is becoming secondary, Granolah's sniper skills might give him an edge even if he's weaker, same for Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct.

[Jack Bz]

I don't think it's clear cut whether Goku or Vegeta are stronger than each other. What we do know is that Goku said that ultra instinct should have no weaknesses and that Granolah couldn't detect any vital points until Goku had been in the form for some time. We also know Granolah opted to wait for an opening instead of attacking Goku while he had no vital points, but Granolah has powered up considerably since then. Maybe with both red eyes he can detect vital points on even initial UI activation Goku.

The manga has seemed to paint the idea that for a short time Goku is basically untouchable but can't sustain that for very long at all (even while transformed) until he gets better at using the technique in his other forms. I interpret this as UI Goku being above Vegeta initially when transforming, but if Vegeta can last past a certain point then UI will quickly worsen. It's up in the air whether he could or couldn't, but I might be inching towards Vegeta coming out the victor in this scenario.

I think Granolah now is above them both for sure.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I'd say it's clear enough right now that if Goku's a 6, Vegeta's a 10 and Granolah's a 15.

...What do you mean, 'there are other power relationships'?

[LightBing]

I took it as UI circumventing Granolah sniper ability, which I predict won't work with the 2 eyes.

Goku can't be untouchable at this point. UI isn't perfect even at full throttle. Jiren held it off.

Plus it's clear Toyotarõ is nerfing it. He said so himself in the recent interview, he made it too perfect. That's why all this extra stuff has been introduced like different levels of UI, Goku using it in other forms, getting less effective as time goes by.

If Goku has a weakness with UI so does Vegeta with UE. The story presents Vegeta being more successful.

Let's not forget Toyotarõ didn't want to answer the question "who's stronger between the Saiyans" because of spoilers. Goku had UI at the time and Vegeta nothing.

[Koitsukai]

So, was Beerus growing stronger whenever he got hit in BoG? what about against the other GoDs?

I can see him not even using any hint of this limitless hakai power vs Goku, hardly an ant next to him, although who knows how is it with Beerus, but he should've used it in the Exhibition Match after his UI ran out, failed, or whatever you want to call it, right? he outlasted 10 hakaishin, after all.


What do you think about Beerus' past fights and his secret power having these characteristics?