Toyotaro discusses his design of Granola (CBR link)

[DragonBallFoodie]

https://www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-super-origins-granolah/
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/movie/02_362.html



"I was focusing on the fact that he is a survivor," Toyotarou said, "But Toriyama reminded us that this isn't a warrior race, right? But that they do like to fight... I didn't really know what to make of that."


"I kind of had the goal of turning him into a sniper," Toyotarou said, explaining Granolah's unique eyewear. "And with that, I could imagine that this was a race of sharpshooters, and so Granolah could have these goggles for locking on to targets, which just seemed really cool."

The artist also revealed that it was Toriyama's idea to have the goggles talk to Granolah. "Toriyama used to say that "If there aren't two characters moving together, we never know what they're thinking," Toyotarou said, adding that this idea is why the Supreme Kai is paired with Kibito and Beerus is with Whis.


"Since this race went extinct 50 years ago, even though they're aliens, I wanted a slightly old fashioned feel," Toyotarou said while describing the process of designing Granolah's clothing. "I also wanted some steampunk elements. That's how the clothing was designed... I wanted the race to feel kind-of old timey."

[Grimlock]

So Toyotaro himself says their race was attacked fifty years ago, huh?

I mean, there wouldn't be any problem... if he hadn't established that Vegeta was a kid. In AGE 731, Vegeta wasn't even born or he was in the incubator. He would only learn about what happened a few years later, if somebody told him, that is.

I don"t know why they keep using Vegeta for most of the Saiyan lore they come up with. It's not like Vegeta is an ancient Saiyan or reads books about his race. He's just a few years older than Goku.

[BWri]

So Toyotaro himself says their race was attacked fifty years ago, huh?

I mean, there wouldn't be any problem... if he hadn't established that Vegeta was a kid. In AGE 731, Vegeta wasn't even born or he was in the incubator. He would only learn about what happened a few years later, if somebody told him, that is.

I don"t know why they keep using Vegeta for most of the Saiyan lore they come up with. It's not like Vegeta is an ancient Saiyan or reads books about his race. He's just a few years older than Goku.

He was likely taught military history to some degree, even early on since he would be eventually groomed to be the leader of the Saiyans. It'd be nice if the story told us this, but Vegeta's position in society would typically denote some level of knowledge about his culture.

Or maybe his dad just told him about various battles.

[Grimlock]

Like you said, it would be better if the series actually told us this. Otherwise I'm having a bit of hard time buying that, even though I agree with you. Remember, this is the franchise in which the characters barely speak about relatives. So I doubt someone would simply say "by the way, Vegeta, there was this race we assaulted a while ago...".

[Koitsukai]

The only reason to tell a kid about an extinct race is to boast about having killed them.

It isn't unreasonable to think that the king or his mother told him about the saiyan's greatest hits. I don't think we need to be told this, it is a common thing, fathers tell their kids all about their sports team history, even when nor the father or the child play sports. Among warriors, seems like a must to tell them about the wars that they've won.

[Grimlock]

Yeah, I remembered a while ago that Vegeta knows that the Saiyans come from Sadala, somehow it slipped my mind when I submitted my previous post. That means Vegeta and probably other Saiyans may have some sort of "History class", or just someone to keep telling them about stuff.

But that raises a question: how and why the hell didn't Vegeta know about Super Saiyan God? Legendary Super Saiyan seems to be a well known topic, they seem to share info about the past, so Vegeta should know about Super Saiyan God too.


Anyway, one other issue: Granola also wants to take down Freeza, right? If so, why?

Movie 1 establishes that Freeza's alliance with the Saiyans occurred in AGE 734, the attack on Granola's race was three years before that. Freeza has nothing to do here. If anything, Granola should want revenge on King Cold instead. Did he learn that King Cold retired and that Freeza took over?

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I remembered a while ago that Vegeta knows that the Saiyans come from Sadala, somehow it slipped my mind when I submitted my previous post. That means Vegeta and probably other Saiyans may have some sort of "History class", or just someone to keep telling them about stuff.

But that raises a question: how and why the hell didn't Vegeta know about Super Saiyan God? Legendary Super Saiyan seems to be a well known topic, they seem to share info about the past, so Vegeta should know about Super Saiyan God too.


Anyway, one other issue: Granola also wants to take down Freeza, right? If so, why?

Movie 1 establishes that Freeza's alliance with the Saiyans occurred in AGE 734, the attack on Granola's race was three years before that. Freeza has nothing to do here. If anything, Granola should want revenge on King Cold instead. Did he learn that King Cold retired and that Freeza took over?

But wasn't the SSG legend a forgotten one? aside of being an asspull that craps all over the SS legend. The saiyans that knew about it might've died 300 years ago as far as we know.

About Granola, his intentions make no sense, being mad at the two remaining saiyans who weren't even born when they stormed his planet is just dumb, plus they killed Freeza, twice(but they keep withholding that information), the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I guess they'll retcon the dates in order to make his hatred towards Freeza justifiable.

[Grimlock]

But wasn't the SSG legend a forgotten one? aside of being an asspull that craps all over the SS legend. The saiyans that knew about it might've died 300 years ago as far as we know.

If it was forgotten, it wasn't so forgotten to the point that even Freeza came to know of it. And I'll say this aloud just so we see how weird the situation is: Freeza knew about Super Saiyan God but not Vegeta, the prince of all Saiyans.

About Granola, his intentions make no sense, being mad at the two remaining saiyans who weren't even born when they stormed his planet is just dumb, plus they killed Freeza, twice(but they keep withholding that information), the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I guess they'll retcon the dates in order to make his hatred towards Freeza justifiable.

You can't retcon the dates here without affecting something else. If they change the year Freeza took over to a point in time before AGE 731, it would also change Vegeta's birth year, he would be older than he's supposed to be. That would fix the issue of Vegeta being a kid when the Saiyans assaulted that race, sure, but it would also create a problem with the five-year timeskip seen in the movie, when Dragon Ball Minus starts. And Dragon Ball Minus can't take place in any year other than AGE 739.

[Koitsukai]

But wasn't the SSG legend a forgotten one? aside of being an asspull that craps all over the SS legend. The saiyans that knew about it might've died 300 years ago as far as we know.

If it was forgotten, it wasn't so forgotten to the point that even Freeza came to know of it. And I'll say this aloud just so we see how weird the situation is: Freeza knew about Super Saiyan God but not Vegeta, the prince of all Saiyans.

About Granola, his intentions make no sense, being mad at the two remaining saiyans who weren't even born when they stormed his planet is just dumb, plus they killed Freeza, twice(but they keep withholding that information), the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I guess they'll retcon the dates in order to make his hatred towards Freeza justifiable.

You can't retcon the dates here without affecting something else. If they change the year Freeza took over to a point in time before AGE 731, it would also change Vegeta's birth year, he would be older than he's supposed to be. That would fix the issue of Vegeta being a kid when the Saiyans assaulted that race, sure, but it would also create a problem with the five-year timeskip seen in the movie, when Dragon Ball Minus starts. And Dragon Ball Minus can't take place in any year other than AGE 739.

Oh then my bad, the problem comes from RoF, not from BoG. Freeza has no business knowing that legend... and no business being worried about a SS when he should be worrying about a SS GOD!!! Sometimes Toriyama just writes himself into a corner.

There was no need for Freeza to mention the SSG legend... damn.

[BWri]

This makes me sad. I hope there's no more retconning. Too many teeth have been pulled from the franchise already. I always said that the SSG should've been one and the same as the legendary SSJ. Years ago, I wanted the retcon to be that the SSJ forms we've seen since Namek were just lesser variants of the original legenday SSJ.

Damn, that was 2015: http://belartscorner.blogspot.com/2015/ ... -your.html
"Missed Opportunity 8: Super Saiyan God as a concept literally comes out of nowhere. There has never been any mention of this in the show and it's not even blended into the existing lore smoothly in the movie. Beerus literally wakes up screaming random nonsense. Hell, even Vegeta, Saiyan lore master, doesn't know about it. It would have been cool if they just retconned the Super Saiyan of Legend to be the Super Saiyan God and made all the other forms of Super Saiyan be inferior offshoots, but it seems us fans are far more creative and imaginative than Toriyama and Toei nowadays."

[Koitsukai]

I think we should count our blessings, such as DB Minus Bardock or Broly movie Bardock not saying something like "Freeza is afraid of the SSG legend" or "good luck, son, you grow up and make that SSG legend come true, we have faith in you, Kal-El, sorry, Kakarotto".

I don't have a problem with the legend of the SSG, but with the stupid idea to retroactively include it in past interactions, when one of its greatest asset was being some sort of lost secret. That's just shoving stuff where it doesn't belong only for the sake of it. Childish. Like the Beerus, Freeza and planet Vegeta connection, a plot point that went nowhere and only served to diminish Freeza's actions.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Yeah, I remembered a while ago that Vegeta knows that the Saiyans come from Sadala, somehow it slipped my mind when I submitted my previous post. That means Vegeta and probably other Saiyans may have some sort of "History class", or just someone to keep telling them about stuff.

But that raises a question: how and why the hell didn't Vegeta know about Super Saiyan God? Legendary Super Saiyan seems to be a well known topic, they seem to share info about the past, so Vegeta should know about Super Saiyan God too.

Maybe he cut class the day they taught about it.

[Marz]

I don"t know why they keep using Vegeta for most of the Saiyan lore they come up with. It's not like Vegeta is an ancient Saiyan or reads books about his race. He's just a few years older than Goku.

In this situation, Vegeta is the only one there able to provide exposition and recognize Granola's history. It would sound forced if Granola would simply spit out all the details about Cerealian massacre in front of them, and Goku obviously couldn't have known that. Yes, there is a risk of inconsistencies as Vegeta is not that old, in which case we have to make some assumptions (like the fact that they possibly taught or told Vegeta about these events)

Anyway, one other issue: Granola also wants to take down Freeza, right? If so, why?

Movie 1 establishes that Freeza's alliance with the Saiyans occurred in AGE 734, the attack on Granola's race was three years before that. Freeza has nothing to do here. If anything, Granola should want revenge on King Cold instead. Did he learn that King Cold retired and that Freeza took over?

Granola was just a child when his planet was attacked. He's lived his entire life with Monaito, so I don't think he's supposed to know these historical details. At the very least, he must have figured it out in a twisted way as it is also implied that the Hiita manipulated him into thinking that Frieza and the Saiyans were the ones responsible for the extinction of his race (when it was the Hiita who plotted it all), since apparently the group and Granola work together for some time.

[Grimlock]

I think we should count our blessings, such as DB Minus Bardock or Broly movie Bardock not saying something like "Freeza is afraid of the SSG legend" or "good luck, son, you grow up and make that SSG legend come true, we have faith in you, Kal-El, sorry, Kakarotto".

No, you leave "muh boy" Jor-El, I mean, Bardock out of this. He has no obligation to carry someone else's burden to explain stuff.

In this situation, Vegeta is the only one there able to provide exposition and recognize Granola's history. It would sound forced if Granola would simply spit out all the details about Cerealian massacre in front of them, and Goku obviously couldn't have known that. Yes, there is a risk of inconsistencies as Vegeta is not that old, in which case we have to make some assumptions (like the fact that they possibly taught or told Vegeta about these events)

An unnecessary and completely avoidable risk. As we already discussed, Toyotaro could simply make Vegeta say he heard of them. But he chose to make him saying he was a kid without doing the math beforehand.

[LoganForkHands73]

It was interesting to see the thought process behind Granola's design. Like Moro, he's very much Toyotaro's own character and it seems he's improved at thinking designs through in the concept stage. As he said about Moro back when that arc first started, he designed Moro's horns without thinking ahead about how much of a pain in the arse they would be to draw from multiple angles every month (though I guess that helped him think outside the box by using those little goat toys as reference points). A common Toriyama trap. Anyway, I didn't quite know what to make of Granola and his steampunk aesthetic when he first appeared, but he's one of those characters that feels far better when you have the colour scheme in mind. Something about that shade of green, man...

I find it funny how much Toyotaro applauds Toriyama's design of the Sugarians. Don't really see anything too special about them, they're kinda cute I guess, but I don't get the hype. Monaito has grown on me, mainly for what he represents in the setting, but you get a sense that he's more of a doddery old geezer than the other Namek Elders. The Heeters are still a mixed bag for me, Elec is undoubtedly the best, Macki's pretty charming, but Gas and Oil are both meh. Oil is just a generic fat brute guy, Gas has some intrigue surrounding him but his pants are weird. Too weird. Don't trust him.

Also, yeah, Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God before anyone else is lame.

[pepd]

The mention of SSG by Freeza in DB- is what I was going to go with in that retcons thread; I still don't quite like the way it was mentioned, but after thinking about it for a minute, I'm almost fine with the mention itself. After all, we know Beerus talked with Freeza about the saiyajins before going to sleep and setting up the alarms for when the SSG would appear, so is not crazy that he mentioned it in that conversation.

"But Toriyama reminded us that this isn't a warrior race, right? But that they do like to fight... I didn't really know what to make of that."

I love this lol
Guess I still wish it was more alien, but he definitely nailed it with the clothes