Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 88 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

Goku and Vegeta relieve this tension that's been building between them and finally get around to fucking fighting this week.

Previous thread: Week 87 (DBZ 223-227)
Next thread: Week 89 (DBZ 231-235)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 381 - Vegeta, the Prince of Destruction, is Revived!! Intrusion at the Tournament (DBZ episode 228)
Dub title: The Dark Prince Returns
Originally aired 25th of May 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 120 - A Wicked Heart is Revived and Episode 121 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 113 - A Wicked Heart is Revived — Vegeta, the Prince of Destruction! and Episode 114 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta
Written by: Masashi Kubota
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Babidi watches Vegeta have an argument with Goku, and confirms that his heart is indeed filled with evil. Using his magic, he succeeds in manipulating Vegeta, and then changes the stage to the Tenka’ichi Budōkai grounds. There Vegeta unleashed an amazing energy blast. Goku tries to stop the blast but is sent flying, and it explodes in the spectator seats. With the tournament grounds in panic, Goku and Vegeta square off.

Anime-only/filler content: Vegeta throwing a tantrum before Babidi tries to cast his spell on him, Mr. Satan showing off for the crowd and nerviously responding to 18's presence, Goku struggling against the ki beam Vegeta fired at him instead of it just barely clipping him on the way to hitting the stands.

Episode 382 - A Super Confrontation of Destiny!! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta (DBZ episode 229)
Dub title: Vegeta's Pride
Originally aired 15th of June 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 121 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 114 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta
Written by: Sumio Uetake
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Shingo Ishikawa

It turns out that Vegeta purposefully fell under Babidi’s magic in order to make Goku get serious. Learning of this, Goku announces that he will fight with Vegeta. Not even Kaiōshin can stop Goku and Vegeta’s battle. Babidi changes the stage to an uninhabited wasteland, like Goku requested. He then tries to manipulate Vegeta with his magic, but the prideful Vegeta brushes him aside. Gohan and Kaiōshin head into Bobbidi’s spaceship, and then Goku and Vegeta’s battle begins.

Anime-only/filler content: Some scenes with Goten and Trunks, Mr. Satan pathetically trying to persuade Vegeta to stop being evil and scary.

Episode 383 - Just You Wait, Babidi!! Your Aspirations Will Not be Allowed (DBZ episode 230)
Dub title: The Long Awaited Fight
Originally aired 22nd of June 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 121 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta and Episode 122 - The Countdown to Revival — Crush Babidi’s Ambitions!
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 114 - I’m the Strongest! The Clash of Goku vs Vegeta and Episode 115 - The Countdown to Revival — Crush Babidi’s Ambitions! One scene incorporated into Episode 116 - The Seal is Broken?! Gohan’s Kamehameha of Resistance
Written by: Sumio Uetake
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa

Goku and Vegeta’s battle has finally begun. The energy for Boo’s revival rapidly fills up from the damage the two take in their battle. Feeling humiliation by such things as having been saved by Goku in the past, Vegeta puts his hatred into ring-shaped ki. He fires these at Goku, binding him up, and then attacks. But Goku tears off the rings and counterattacks. Evenly matched, neither of them gives an inch. Meanwhile, Gohan and Kaiōshin finally reach Bobbidi.

Anime-only/filler content: Every scene at the tournament grounds, Gohan and Kaioshin fighting Babidi's soldiers, Goten and Trunks having a pit stop in a forest, significant extensions to Goku and Vegeta fighting, including the entire sequence inside the cave and Vegeta using solidified ki restraints on Goku.

DBZ movie 11 - Super-Warrior Defeat!! I’m the One Who’ll Win
Dub title: Bio-Broly
Originally released 9th of July 1994
Written by: Takao Koyama
Director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Tadayoshi Yamamuro

After being blackmailed, Mr. Satan and No. 18 travel to battle some bio-warriors. Fortunately, Goten and Trunks were hiding in their trunk, and along with No. 18, the three battle the bio-warriors. After the fight Goten and Trunks find a Bio-Broli, and they accidentally awaken him. Can the fearless duo stop this biological monster?!

-

Interesting trivia about Z episodes 228-230:

• At this point in time in the Manga, Shin and Kibito take Gohan to the Kaioshin World, Goku begins teaching Gotenks and Trunks the Fusion Dance, and Gohan removes the Z-Sword.
• Missed Trivia: Considering that we've had Earthlings named after rice, noodles, colours of the rainbow, and bad guys named after musical instruments and vegetables, it seems odd for the Announcer to take umbrage with 18 being named after a number!
• And now we come to a great point of confusion in Dragon Ball terminology: what to call Vegeta while under Babidi's spell. The common term for this is "Majin Vegeta", likely stemming from the name of the arc's villain, Majin Boo, and that the symbol on Vegeta's forehead looks like an M. However this isn't very appropriate: Majin translates to "Demon person" or perhaps "Evil person" (much like Saiyajin translates to "Saiya person"), but the word is often used to refer to djinns and genies, thus Viz's decision to call Boo "Djinn-Boo". The "Majin" name may be purely part of Boo's genie-like aesthetic and have no relevance to Babidi himself. Furthermore, Majin Boo isn't under Babidi's spell, and it'd be a redundant name for Dabra (who is also never called "Majin Dabra" by the fanbase).
  • As for the M emblem, it may in fact refer to Babidi's title; in English, we would call him the wizard Babidi, but the Japanese word they use for wizard is "Madoshi", which may be what the M refers to. But this is never clarified at any point, so for all we know, it could be for the English word "Magic". It's also never clarified if it actually is an M, or a shape that just looks like an M. (Edit: Toriyama clarified it refers to the Ma kanji, which is present in both Majin and Madoshi, so the jury is still out. However, he said it "probably" refers to Ma; so this is still somewhat uncertain...)
• One other visual difference with Babidi's spell is that the outlines of the eyes become thicker. This is likely a step forward from Toriyama's motif that bad characters have fully-outlined eyes. This visual difference would be revisited in the Baby arc of GT, to mark those Baby has under his influence
• Contrary to popular belief, there are a handful of redrawn/visually altered shots in the Boo arc of Kai. The first of these tones down the flashing imagery in Babidi's ship when he uses his magic on Vegeta. The scene wasn't actually redrawn for this; the original flashing effects were removed and replaced with newer ones, while the core imagery underneath was left intact. A total of three shots were altered this way, in this episode.
• Vegeta killing the Tournament crowd is his first kill since Android 19, and his first organic kill since Jheese.
• Vegeta's second blast at the Tournament falls meters away from the Dragon Team spectators, most notably Bulma. It would have made for an interesting outcome had Vegeta inadvertantly killed his own wife, but this is probably too heavy a topic for Dragon Ball.
  • Robo stands by his interpretation that Vegeta missing his family was deliberate on Vegeta's part, even if only subconsciously. KBABZ disagrees, though. Who's right? Debate in the replies.
• Vegeta remains in the Super Saiyan form the for the rest of his current lifespan, and the entire time he's under Babidi's spell. The latter is possibly a reflection that the Super Saiyan form is triggered by stress, as the form is triggered when Babidi casts his spell on Vegeta.
• Babidi notably transports Goku and co. to an environment very similar to Goku and Vegeta's previous battleground back in the Saiyan Arc.
• Vegeta is able to resist the commands given to him by Babidi, meaning his willpower is even stronger than that of Dabra, the king of the Demon Realm.
• As it turns out, the circular platform that follows the fighters around as Babidi teleports them is indeed the passage leading further into the ship. Which this does raise some extreme questions regarding spatial relativity, Babidi's spells are magic, so it's not too much of an issue.
• Before engaging Vegeta, Goku says that he'll fight him at full power. We'll later learn that this isn't the truth: Goku still has Super Saiyan 3 up his sleeve, and his undead status means that he has bottomless reserves of energy that counter-acts its incredibly high energy burn.
  • That said, there's another possible reason for this line: it's very likely that Toriyama hadn't devised Super Saiyan 3 yet, as the Chapter it appears in wouldn't debut for another four months.
  • In the manga, both Vegeta and Goku power up to Super Saiyan 2, as confirmed by their hair and the presence of lightning around them.
  • Goku and Vegeta's fight in Z episode 230 begins exactly 200 episodes after their first one, in Z episode 30.

Interesting trivia about Z movie 11:

• At the time this movie debuted, in the manga Boo begins killing time now that Babidi is dead as Goku returns to Other World, while in the anime Boo finally emerged from his shell.
• As we've noted before, while Broly isn't the first movie villain to have a sequel (that goes to Cooler), he is the first and only movie villain to take up both slots in that year's two Toei Festivals, specifically in March and July 1994.
• As well, both Broly sequels focus on Trunks and Goten as the main characters being paired with one of Dragon Ball's female fighters and a second male combatant (one of which is a member of the Satan family). Considering how close the premiere of both movies are, this may not be a coincidence.
  • In Robo's opinion, the attempt at making Goten and Trunks the main characters didn't work. 18 and Mr. Satan are the two who really drive this story, and they're the main reason to watch this movie. Goten and Trunks end up coming off as just comic relief who can also fight the giant monster who definitely isn't really Broly.
• The biggest point of contradiction this movie has with the manga storyline is that an important storyline is 18 getting her money from Mr. Satan for throwing the Battle Royale final of the Tenkaichi Budokai (the movie even using clips from the scene in the anime).
  • If the movie occurs during the Boo Arc, then at this time Goku isn't in Other World as he is at the end of the movie, Kuririn has been turned to stone, Trunks and Goten should be too busy travelling to Babidi's ship, and 18 doesn't leave the Tournament grounds before she travels with the Dragon Team to Capsule Corp. and then God's Lookout.
  • That means the more logical place to put the movie is after the Boo Arc, however there Goku is again not in Other World, and Goten and Trunks should at least discuss using the Fusion Dance to turn into Gotenks (which had not been invented by the time the movie premiered).
  • As well, similar to Broly 2, it ignores the presence of Vegeta entirely, who is just as capable of defeating Broly by this point as Goku is.
• This is one of only three Dragon Ball Z movies to have a stereo mix. It was released as an audio drama CD some time after the movie's theatrical run, and mostly uses the original mono mix; the only difference is all the music is presented in stereo. Interestingly, one of the episodes this week (Z episode 229) was also released as an audio drama CD, albeit only in mono. Z episodes 2 and 237 would also be released in a similar format, though episode 2 would only be released on cassette. These are the only episodes whose original non-optical (that is to say, non-shitty) audio would be officially released by Toei outside of the original broadcasts.
• 18's hoop earrings are coloured red in this movie, which is odd considering that Trunks went out of his way to describe them as golden back when warning Goku about them.
• Goten asks if Kuririn is going to give him and Trunks whatever they want to eat. Assuming they both eat the same amount as Goku did at their age, this means that Kuririn and 18 would be left with about 19,060,000 Zeni, since Goku ate through 470,000 Zeni worth of dinner after the 21st Tournament entirely on his own.
• A subjective entry: Bio-Broly is the first film that KBABZ noticed took much more advantage of the 4:3 frame's height, with the widescreen releases using Funimation Blu-Ray-style cropping that is vertically shifted to best fit the shorter frame. This is in contrast to earlier movies which were designed around "Orange Brick" style widescreen crops that focused on the middle of the frame.
  • Interestingly, the Funimation release of this movie handles the 16:9 cropping a lot better than the Japanese HD release, though none of the cropped versions are ideal. This image illustrates the situation; red indicates what it would look like to crop one of the 4:3 releases to 16:9, the blue indicates the Japanese HD version, and the green indicates the Funimation widescreen/HD version.
• Goten complains about yet again being the one on the bottom to lift Trunks, just as he did in the Mighty Mask disguise. Given his Saiyan physique it's unlikely that holding Trunks is any burden; he's probably more upset at not being at the window. This also ignores that the two can fly, which they do in this very movie!
• The imaginary newspaper that pops up has a headline that doesn't have much to do with the picture. It reads "Mr. Satan World Champion", and doesn't refer to the picture of Mr. Satan standing next to his wet bedsheets hanging on the washing line.
• The imaginary news article about Mr. Satan wetting the bed is the first time we see him without a moustache.
• Mr. Satan checks with Menmen that his tournament doesn't have anyone with yellow spiky hair, and Menmen mocks him for such a ridiculous notion. Even if Broly powered up, the Legendary Super Saiyan form technically has spiky green hair!
• The car that Menmen uses has a disco ball inside, complete with four dedicated spotlights.
• Ironically, Kuririn whines that it's more fun being single, after all that time pining for a girlfriend.
• Jaga's island is the first instance of a private island the characters can fight on unimpeded. This idea would be revisited in the next Broly movie, where Bulma has a private island with clear waters that allow Goku and Vegeta to train as they wish.
• As Trunks points out, Goten is very used to being around more threatening beasts like Kei thanks to living up on Mount Paoz, while he is more sheltered in Capsule Corp. In the next scene however, Trunks shows his smarts by explaining what biotechnology is (sorta), thanks to being around his mum and grandfather.
• Jaga's Battle Stage follows the series tradition of having official Tournaments like the Tenkaichi Budokai, Other World Tournament and Cell Games use square rings, while unofficial or private events like Baba's Palace and the Mifan Tournament use circular ones.
• Strangely, Mr. Satan refers to 18 as "No. 18", when her given name at the Tournament was just "18".
• Jaga ironically accuses Mr. Satan's own "students" of using light shows and magic tricks.
• Jaga has a similar flaw to Biff Tannen from Back to the Future in that he mis-quotes figures of speech, such as "Make like a tree and get out of here".
• Like many of the other movies, this one intentionally copies facets of the manga storyline at that time. In this case, Mr. Satan and Android 18 participate in a Battle Royale that has the surprise introduction of Goten and Trunks as competitors. As well, the opponents are all bald and covered with high-pressure blood veins, much like Spopovitch was.
• Appropriately, Broly is contained in tank 1-13, considered to be an unlucky number. Coincidentally, it's also the number of movies spawned by DBZ prior to 2013.
• While Broly has been seen naked as a baby many times, this is the first time we see him naked as an adult.
• Trunks says that "we" wiped out Broly with a Kamehameha, despite not participating in it himself.
• We never see Mr. Satan and Jaga move from the Battle Stage to the catwalk.
• Jaga's computer that brings Broly back to life shows pictures of Broly as a baby, a child, a teenager and finally an adult. To date it's the only time his child and teenage appearances have been depicted, unless the flashback to him scarring Paragus was during his teenage years.
• Like his alternate future self, Trunks is much more pragmatic about defeating villains than his father is.
• Trunks and Goten charging their Kamehamehas shows electricity sparking in their palms, the first time the move is shown to do so. As well, Trunks yet again demonstrates knowledge of using the move.
• The Japanese Blu-ray release of this movie features a censored version of the scene where Trunks gives Bio-Broly the middle finger; it's digitally edited to be him making a fist instead. Surprisingly, this is not the first time Toei censored their own work on Dragon Ball post-release; they changed a line of dialogue in the Boo arc after the first airing after it was decided the original line (something like Vegetto calling Boo mentally handicapped) was insensitive. Ironically, since this dialogue change was only made for re-airings and other distribution, the only high-quality copy of the audio of that scene we have, taken from a tape of the episode's first airing, contains the original line.
• It isn't explained exactly why Broly gets consumed by the cultivation goo and turns hinto his infamous Bio-Broly form. Presumably this is because he's assimilating with the cultivation goo.
• This is the second Dragon Ball Z movie where the villain is codenamed "Number 13".
• This is the last Z movie in which the villain speaks. He says "Kakarot!" once.
• The head scientist appears to react to a screen turning on to the left of his monitor, despite not being able to see it from his perspective.
• As he's being consumed by the goo, the village prayerman says the chant from the previous movie.
• Unlike Thor, Kuririn goes for the head with his Kienzan.
• This is the second time Trunks has spanked his exposed right buttock to mock Broly.
• The backpack of the man on the ship looking abck at the island has "Yoshi" written on it.
• The goo solidifying once it touches water is very similar to lava erupting from an island volcano.
• Mr. Satan would indeed have owed 100 million Zeni to 18: 20m for throwing the Tournament, 20m for fighting in the Battle Stage, 20m for fighting Bio-Broly, and 40m for saving him from the ocean.
• Goku is wise to not fight Broly on an empty stomach, as it did in fact cost him the victory against Yamcha and Tambourine.

Trivia primarily written by KBABZ. Summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.

[MasenkoHA]

The M on Vegeta and Dabra’s foreheads match the M on Boo’s belt. I don’t think Majin Vegeta is a stretch. He gave his heart to darkness so he did effectively become a demon person.

Pretty sure Kuririn voiced his concern about Bobbodi’s magic over Piccolo because Piccolo used to be a demon clansman

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

If the movie occurs during the Boo Arc, then at this time Goku isn't in Other World as he is at the end of the movie, Kuririn has been turned to stone, Trunks and Goten should be too busy travelling to Babidi's ship, and 18 doesn't leave the Tournament grounds before she travels with the Dragon Team to Capsule Corp. and then God's Lookout.
That means the more logical place to put the movie is after the Boo Arc, however there Goku is again not in Other World, and Goten and Trunks should at least discuss using the Fusion Dance to turn into Gotenks (which had not been invented by the time the movie premiered).

That seems to be a thing with most though not all of the movies, as they vaguely bear some resemblance to the respective story arcs in which they accompany more or less but have some of a lot of continuity oddities (characters alive or dead which should be the opposite, in a different place than where they should be.etc) that cannot be reconciled with the series proper from a timeline standpoint. Bojack Unbound and Wrath of the Dragon seem to be the ones out of the lot which actually work in continuity with the anime, given the former you could say clearly goes after the Cell Games and Goku's sacrifice with the latter set after evil Buu's defeat but before the final time skip to the end of the manga's storyline. The others though, most of them really can't given all the little things which clearly make them unable to be placed in there.

At least that can be said about the Z movies, the OG DB ones are a different thing given they mostly just take parts of the manga and anime's story and turns them into original stories with lots of changes.

[Grimlock]

Well, that's why movies officially take place in another dimension. Probably the events of the anime in there even occurred differently, to accommodate the movies.

Also this "free pass" people give to Movie 13 shouldn't come without a note if we take Dragon Ball Super events into consideration. Future Trunks saga directly contradicts that movie. But like I said, different dimension.


And as for Goku and Vegeta, I'm pretty sure Goku did fight against Vegeta using his full power. They both fought using all of the power Super Saiyan 2 provided. In a way, Goku didn't lie.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Well, that's why movies officially take place in another dimension. Probably the events of the anime in there even occurred differently, to accommodate the movies.

Also this "free pass" people give to Movie 13 shouldn't come without a note if we take Dragon Ball Super events into consideration. Future Trunks saga directly contradicts that movie. But like I said, different dimension.


And as for Goku and Vegeta, I'm pretty sure Goku did fight against Vegeta using his full power. They both fought using all of the power Super Saiyan 2 provided. In a way, Goku didn't lie.

Yeah that is true, it can be reasoned that the majority of them can be seen as what ifs (sort of) like Dead Zone being if Raditz hadn't come to Earth like the canon or alternate realities where things happened differently from the manga and anime's respective timelines.

[Grimlock]

But to be clear, the only "what-if" thing here would be that in this other dimension, the anime events happened bit different to allow the movies occur smoothly. However, the movies themselves aren't what-if events, they're as legit as the events in the series.

[Robo4900]

Added an extra trivia entry:

• The imaginary newspaper that pops up has a headline that doesn't have much to do with the picture. It reads "Mr. Satan World Champion", and doesn't refer to the picture of Mr. Satan standing next to his wet bedsheets hanging on the washing line.

Also this "free pass" people give to Movie 13 shouldn't come without a note if we take Dragon Ball Super events into consideration. Future Trunks saga directly contradicts that movie. But like I said, different dimension.

As you note, there's no contradiction if you don't consider Super part of the main continuity (just like many fans do with GT). To me personally, the only "main" continuity of Dragon Ball is the original manga. The original anime (including GT) is another, and there's another one that contains the Super anime (and probably Kai). Z movie 13 could easily fit into the original anime timeline, but many of the other movies really have to fit into their own.

The M on Vegeta and Dabra’s foreheads match the M on Boo’s belt. I don’t think Majin Vegeta is a stretch. He gave his heart to darkness so he did effectively become a demon person.

Pretty sure Kuririn voiced his concern about Bobbodi’s magic over Piccolo because Piccolo used to be a demon clansman

Yeah, but again, Majin is very frequently translated as djinn, since it's the word that's used to refer to djinns and genies. And also once again, there are several other things the M could mean. So it's not exactly a stretch, but it's not concrete either.

I seem to recall Kei17 at one point saying something about a lot of Japanese fans referring to Vegeta at this point as the Prince of Destruction (as per the episode title), which is another worthy name for his status here.

[KBABZ]

Probably the events of the anime in there even occurred differently, to accommodate the movies.

I've actually been building a document that postulates what the anime would have looked like in order to make sure the movies happen as we see them!

[MasenkoHA]

Both movie 10 and 11 seemingly take place after the tournament likely in an AU where Boo’s awakening was prevented.

[MyVisionity]

Toriyama mentioned that the M-looking symbol comes from 魔 (ma) in an interview. 魔 of course means "evil" or "demons", and is also used to refer to magic, such as in madoushi/"sorcerer".

It's likely supposed to be Bibbidi/Bobbidi's symbol, as it's on his spaceship and everything else they have. Placing the symbol on a person probably just means that they belong to Bobbidi, that's all.

"Majin Vegeta" was a popular fan term for the character pre-Funimation, and is likely why they chose to use the name for their official releases.

[Robo4900]

Toriyama mentioned that the M-looking symbol comes from 魔 (ma) in an interview. 魔 of course means "evil" or "demons", and is also used to refer to magic, such as in madoushi/"sorcerer".

Which interview did he say this in?

[MyVisionity]

Toriyama mentioned that the M-looking symbol comes from 魔 (ma) in an interview. 魔 of course means "evil" or "demons", and is also used to refer to magic, such as in madoushi/"sorcerer".

Which interview did he say this in?

It was in a Q&A section in one of the Dragon Ball Full Color volumes. Here is the link to the Kanzenshuu translation: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... uu-arc-05/

[Robo4900]

Toriyama mentioned that the M-looking symbol comes from 魔 (ma) in an interview. 魔 of course means "evil" or "demons", and is also used to refer to magic, such as in madoushi/"sorcerer".

Which interview did he say this in?

It was in a Q&A section in one of the Dragon Ball Full Color volumes. Here is the link to the Kanzenshuu translation: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... uu-arc-05/

I see.

So, on one hand, Majin does use that kanji, but on the other hand, Toriyama probably would have said Majin if that's what he meant. He said Ma (魔), which is in both Majin (魔神 - djinn/devil/demon person) and Madoshi (魔導師 - sorcerer/wizard).

So, "Majin Vegeta" remains dubious at best. Perhaps "Ma Vegeta" would be closer, though that calls to mind ideas of a motherly Vegeta. Not quite as evocative as "Prince of Destruction".

[KBABZ]

Now that I've seen all four Broly movies, I can give my ranking on them!

1. Broly Super. Obviously this is #1: Broly is characterized really well here, and while the story has to bend over backwards to get him through Super Saiyan and the Legendary state, the movie has the presence of mind to have a reduced cast for the main story rather than throwing in everybody like with BoG and RoF. The main downside is that much of the opening is self-indulgent and irrelevant: I loved seeing Gine and Goku's origin, but the core story is Broly and we didn't need to see that. Also, the animation is legitimately the best the franchise has ever seen in my opinion.
2. Second Coming. Yeah, this is my #2! It's a classic Z movie so the stories are all excuse plots, but as far as excuse plots go Second Coming had a better one than most. I loved the interactions between Videl, Goten and Trunks and they make for a very nice trio. And Videl actually gets some fighting in!
3. Bio-Broly. Now we're getting to a hot take! I like this better than the original. Broly is barely himself in this one, but that's fine because practically all of the villains have been so tangentially related to the heroes anyways. 18 being a grump and fighting is great fun, and Trunks and Goten get more time to fight together here now that they carry the fighting all on their own as opposed to being backed up by Gohan. I also liked how the end solution was nature, felt like a classic Dragon Ball/Z moral to add.
4. The Legendary Super Saiyan. Yup, the original is at the bottom of the list. In many ways it is better than Bio-Broly: there's more story density, a lot of the classic Z Fighters are present, and the feeling of Broly being an inpenetrable wall of utter doom is executed well. But I can't get over the first 20 minutes, which present us with two mystery storylines that is utterly meaningless despite it's desperate attempts to convince us otherwise, and I'm not okay with having my time wasted like that. I also felt that while Vegeta just giving up was an interesting idea, nothing was actually done with it and it makes him look like a wimp compared to everyone else. Oh and Piccolo rescues Gohan for like the billionth time.

[Grimlock]

Yeah that is true, it can be reasoned that the majority of them can be seen as what ifs (sort of) like Dead Zone being if Raditz hadn't come to Earth like the canon or alternate realities where things happened differently from the manga and anime's respective timelines.

I prefer things to be as "organic" as possible, so instead of what you said, I would say Movie 1 happens before the beginning of Saiyans saga/Raditz' arrival. With Kuririn having already met Gohan in the anime series of that dimension. So when Goku goes to Muten Roshi's house, they aren't surprised that Goku has a son.

The differences I'm talking about shouldn't be as drastic to the point that "Raditz hadn't come to Earth", it may (and most certainly does) bring a lot of problems if we assume certain events simply didn't happen.

I've actually been building a document that postulates what the anime would have looked like in order to make sure the movies happen as we see them!

And I would very much like to see that, if you don't mind!

Both movie 10 and 11 seemingly take place after the tournament likely in an AU where Boo’s awakening was prevented.

Movie 12 contradicts that. Majin Buu is referenced by Goku. Like I said above, assuming things simply didn't happen may also be a major issue. And now you're talking about the entire of Majin Buu saga having not happened. Impossible.

[MasenkoHA]

Now that I've seen all four Broly movies, I can give my ranking on them!

1. Broly Super. Obviously this is #1: Broly is characterized really well here, and while the story has to bend over backwards to get him through Super Saiyan and the Legendary state, the movie has the presence of mind to have a reduced cast for the main story rather than throwing in everybody like with BoG and RoF. The main downside is that much of the opening is self-indulgent and irrelevant: I loved seeing Gine and Goku's origin, but the core story is Broly and we didn't need to see that. Also, the animation is legitimately the best the franchise has ever seen in my opinion.
2. Second Coming. Yeah, this is my #2! It's a classic Z movie so the stories are all excuse plots, but as far as excuse plots go Second Coming had a better one than most. I loved the interactions between Videl, Goten and Trunks and they make for a very nice trio. And Videl actually gets some fighting in!
3. Bio-Broly. Now we're getting to a hot take! I like this better than the original. Broly is barely himself in this one, but that's fine because practically all of the villains have been so tangentially related to the heroes anyways. 18 being a grump and fighting is great fun, and Trunks and Goten get more time to fight together here now that they carry the fighting all on their own as opposed to being backed up by Gohan. I also liked how the end solution was nature, felt like a classic Dragon Ball/Z moral to add.
4. The Legendary Super Saiyan. Yup, the original is at the bottom of the list. In many ways it is better than Bio-Broly: there's more story density, a lot of the classic Z Fighters are present, and the feeling of Broly being an inpenetrable wall of utter doom is executed well. But I can't get over the first 20 minutes, which present us with two mystery storylines that is utterly meaningless despite it's desperate attempts to convince us otherwise, and I'm not okay with having my time wasted like that. I also felt that while Vegeta just giving up was an interesting idea, nothing was actually done with it and it makes him look like a wimp compared to everyone else. Oh and Piccolo rescues Gohan for like the billionth time.

I like that other than agreeing with you on Super Broccoli I have the exact opposite views on Broli’s outings.

The Legendary Super Saiyan felt the most fleshed out to me. One of the few pre-revival Dragon Ball movies that almost felt like an actual movie. Broli’s motivation sucked (or his lack of motivation?) but the action was nifty, Kikuchi’s score was in top form, and New Vegeta and honestly after the snooze fest of Return of Coola and Super Android 13 this was refreshing. Second Coming when it wasn’t boring me to tears was making my smack my face in frustration and Bio Broli ended up being on the lower end of “enjoyable enough for what it is”

Neat that Dragon Ball fans can have such diverse taste.

Movie 12 contradicts that. Majin Buu is referenced by Goku. Like I said above, assuming things simply didn't happen may also be a major issue. And now you're talking about the entire of Majin Buu saga having not happened. Impossible.

No it doesn’t. I don’t know why you think all the movies exist in the same continuity. We know in fact that they don’t. Movie 2-4 take place “vaguely after Namek” and yet Goku can’t become a Super Saiyan. Movie 5 follows much closer to the series events where Goku became a Super Saiyan on Namek. Movie 12 cements the idea that Boo was defeated without Goku or Vegeta having to be brought back from the dead and that movie being the first time they fused ever. But movie 13 follows up on the direction the series went in with both of them being brought back.

Boo existing in movie 12’s continuity means jack squat in regards to movie 10 and 11 which at least suggest that Goten and Trunks never learned to fuse but it takes place after the tournament. Since 18 was runner up and threw the match for double the prize we know events at the tournament played at the same way with half the participants abandoning the tournament. Either Boo’s awakening was prevented or he was stopped almost as soon as he was released.

[Koitsukai]

Probably the events of the anime in there even occurred differently, to accommodate the movies.

I've actually been building a document that postulates what the anime would have looked like in order to make sure the movies happen as we see them!

I'm really interested in this! I've been meaning to start a thread about it, but I never find the time to do so, besides I need to re-watch all the movies before doing it.

But yeah, there's no ONE main continuity for the movies, some exist in the same continuity, others on their own. The Cooler movies, for instance, do not belong to the same one, IIRC. Or is it the Broly movies that aren't in-universe sequels? see, that's why I said I need to re-watch them before discussing them lol

[KBABZ]

I'm really interested in this! I've been meaning to start a thread about it, but I never find the time to do so, besides I need to re-watch all the movies before doing it.

But yeah, there's no ONE main continuity for the movies, some exist in the same continuity, others on their own. The Cooler movies, for instance, do not belong to the same one, IIRC. Or is it the Broly movies that aren't in-universe sequels? see, that's why I said I need to re-watch them before discussing them lol

It's Second Coming and Bio-Broly that can't work together. This is because the third one has 18 hound Mr. Satan for her bribe money from the Tournament, which Goku was alive and present for, yet he doesn't show up (but for that matter, neither does Vegeta, so...). The Cooler due can still work, you just have to place the second one during the Cell Games and ignore Trunks not showing up.

But as you'll see below, I've thought of that.

Yeah that is true, it can be reasoned that the majority of them can be seen as what ifs (sort of) like Dead Zone being if Raditz hadn't come to Earth like the canon or alternate realities where things happened differently from the manga and anime's respective timelines.

I prefer things to be as "organic" as possible, so instead of what you said, I would say Movie 1 happens before the beginning of Saiyans saga/Raditz' arrival. With Kuririn having already met Gohan in the anime series of that dimension. So when Goku goes to Muten Roshi's house, they aren't surprised that Goku has a son.

The differences I'm talking about shouldn't be as drastic to the point that "Raditz hadn't come to Earth", it may (and most certainly does) bring a lot of problems if we assume certain events simply didn't happen.

I've actually been building a document that postulates what the anime would have looked like in order to make sure the movies happen as we see them!

And I would very much like to see that, if you don't mind!

This is what I have so far. Similar to your outlook, my approach was not to have the movie over-write entire anime story arcs, but to adjust said story arcs so that the movies can still happen. As you'll see, the most drastic change I had to make was with Z Movie 2.

For those wondering, here's how I've organized things so far (I haven't done anything past Movie 11 because I haven't watched them yet):

Spoiler:

• The Dragon Ball Movie trio replaces the Pilaf, 21st TB and Red Ribbon Arcs.
• In the "while" between DBM1 and 2, Goku meets Chi-Chi and Ox-King at Fire Mountain while looking for the Four-Star Ball (since they appear in Dead Zone with the expected backstory). Unable to find it, he travels to Roshi to take him up on his training offer.
• After Mystical Adventure, Chiaotzu disbands the Mifan Empire's Red Ribbon Army, which Dr. Gero blames on Goku so that the Android Arc and Super Android 13 can happen. Chaiotzu resigns as Emperor and travels the world with Tien, allowing for the Worldly Training Filler to transpire as normal.
• The two Safety Specials happen in the gap after Mystical Adventure. Goku would also have to meet Suno before these. The Worldly Training Filler occurs here as normal too.
• Because the Pilaf Gang were killed in Mystical Adventure, Piccolo is freed by Garlic Jr. instead, and suffers the same fate as he isn't backed up by his normal cronies.
• The story resumes with the 22nd TB, which does still exist as a poster for it is visible in Mystical Adventure and is referenced in The World's Strongest. Crane isn't present, having been disposed of in Mystical Adventure, and neither is Man-Wolf, as Roshi never went to the 21st Tournament and destroyed the moon.
• Daimao transpires with Garlic Jr. instead of the Pilaf Gang. They never meet any other characters, thus keeping him a secret for Dead Zone.
• The Heavenly Training Filler also occurs as normal, only Kami no longer has to restore the moon. Goku also doesn't discard Nyoi-bo, as it's present in several Z movies.
• In the 23rd TB, Shen's return with Cyborg Tao is now over his defeat in Mystical Adventure. The Wedding Dress Arc happens after, which is the first time Goku meets Baba since the RRA Arc doesn't happen here.
• Dead Zone transpires a year before the start of the Saiyan Arc, because the Dragon Balls are wished on but are also key to Goku finding where Gohan and Raditz are.
• Raditz occurs as before, only Bulma, Krillin and Roshi already know who Gohan is thanks to hearing about him in Dead Zone. As well, Piccolo already knows about Gohan's hidden strength thanks to Dead Zone, but the Saiyan threat forces his hand.
• The biggest change that I made is that instead of Vegeta and Nappa going together, Nappa goes to Earth ALONE. Without Vegeta to calm him down, he makes mistakes and are held off by Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu until Goku arrives and is forced to kill him. Goku still trains with Kaio to learn the Kaio-Ken and Genki-Dama techniques.
• With Nappa getting himself killed, Vegeta travels to Earth, unbeknownst to those on Earth, a journey that takes 11 months like with Nappa.
• Goku gives Nyoi-bo to Gohan for him to carry in World's Strongest.
• The World's Strongest transpires. After, Gohan returns Nyoi-bo to connect Korin's Tower and the Lookout, as he doesn't carry it in future movies.
• Vegeta arrives 11 months after Nappa's death and replicates the Saiyan Arc, killing Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Tien and Piccolo, and openly postulates about the Dragon Balls and kicking off the Namek Arc.
• In the Namek Arc, Goku DOESN'T acquire the full Super Saiyan form, and instead uses Super Saiyan Omen (aka False Super Saiyan), which is still enough to make Frieza desperate and destroy Namek (so that Return of Cooler still takes place on New Namek).
• Garlic Jr. Filler still occurs.
• When demonstrating Super Saiyan to Trunks, Goku uses Super Saiyan Omen instead. As well, the Androids are due to arrive in two years time, because a year was already spent waiting for Vegeta to show up (this also ensures Gohan and Videl can be in the same grade at Orange Star High).
• Tree of Might has been placed here because Goku uses the "Go" gi from Namek, and Yamcha has Kaio's symbol on his. Vegeta's absence is weird, but also happens with the two Broly sequels, so there.
• Goku and Piccolo take driving lessons, thus allowing Goku to legally drive the red car in Lord Slug's credits.
• Lord Slug occurs a year before the Android Arc, since a wish is made on the Dragon Balls and they're a story element before the Cell Games. Goku uses Super Saiyan Omen again.
• Cooler's Revenge: Goku achieves the "proper" Super Saiyan form he saw Trunks use. It's placed here again because of the "go" gi: by the Cell Games Goku has discarded it. Gohan also has a tail again for some reason.
• In the Android Arc, Krillin and Trunks don't initially destroy Dr. Gero's basement lab, allowing for Super Android 13 to happen.
• Since Gohan doesn't use Super Saiyan in Movies 6 and 7, he and Goku don't use the Room of Spirit and Time until after the Cell Games are closer to occur. As well, Trunks leaves the Room of Spirit and Time early out of frustration with his father, thus explaining why he has shorter hair in Super Android 13.
• The Return of Cooler now occurs. Trunks' absence is him going in the Room of Spirit and Time now that Vegeta is off to help deal with Metal Cooler. The Big Gete Star also blocks Goku from using Instant Transmission to go there, which he discovered before they left in the spaceship.
• Super Android 13 also occurs.
• Goku and Gohan now enter the Room of Spirit and Time and learn how to hold it as a natural state.
• The Legendary Super Saiyan now occurs. Goku and Gohan aren't persistently Super Saiyan in the movie, because it was during the middle three days of relaxation, and includes Gohan discarding the Piccolo pauldrons.
• Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans now transpires as seen on the two VHS tapes. It's placed here because Goku mentions that Hatchyiak is about as strong as Broly.
• The Cell Games now occurs. One difference is that Goku and Kaio do not immediately move on from the spot where they build his new home, as they're still there in...
• Bojack Unbound, which is where Vegeta briefly ignores his vow to never fight again in order to defend his son.
• The Other World Tournament also happens.
• The Great Saiyaman Arc occurs, except Goku does NOT pipe up about competing in the Tournament, and Vegeta doesn't challenge Gohan, knowing his true opponent should be Goku.
• Second Coming occurs in the lead-up to the Tournament. Presumably Vegeta doesn't appear due to fear of Broly and still adhering to his vow to never fight again.
• The next Tournament transpires VERY differently. Spopovich and Yamu don't appear yet (so neither do Kaioshin and Kibito), and it proceeds as normal without the Babidi interruption, so the Battle Royale format isn't required. 18 wins in the final against Gohan due to his training tardiness, and in the Championship Match she still blackmails Mr. Satan for 20,000,000 zeni.
• Bio-Broly now occurs after the Tournament because of 18 hounding Mr. Satan for her money. Vegeta is again not present due to the same reasons as in Second Coming.
• Goku returns to Earth to celebrate their performance at the Tournament, and Vegeta challenges him to a rematch during his one day on Earth. Spopovich, Yamu, Kaioshin and Kibito now appear, and the Buu Arc kicks off in earnest.
• When Vegeta is corrupted by Babidi, the wizard takes them back to Capsule Corp, so that Bulma can witness his atrocities.
• Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon cannot take place more than five years after the end of the Buu Arc. This is because EoZ occurs ten years after Buu, and Bulma complains she hasn't seen Goku since five years prior. As well, Goku and Vegeta are brought back to life with the Namekian Dragon Balls between each movie.
• Because the Pilaf Gang are killed in the opening of Mystical Adventure, Dragon Ball GT doesn't happen. A Hero's Journey can happen however due to how far in the future it is and how self-contained the story is.

Bonus section: Here's how the movies would have happened in the original Future Trunks Timeline:

Spoiler:

• Because Goku died of the Heart Virus, Dr. Gero is much less motivated on the Androids project, thus never completing Androids 16, or 19 to convert himself into Android 20, and doesn't achieve breakthroughs that increase the strength of 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18. Thus he arrives at the island with 17 and 18, who then swiftly kill him before anyone sees him. Since the Dragon Team don't know they're coming, none of them know about Gero at all.
• The Return of Cooler still happens, but with the Dragon Team dead, Metal Cooler takes over New Namek without anyone knowing about it, enslaving the Namekian race.
• Super Android 13 occurs, but due to the lack of breakthroughs, he, 14 and 15 are weak enough that Gohan can kill them on his own. It's also possible they had a run-in with 17 and 18 and were killed that way.
• By the time Paragus wants to send the invitation for New Vegeta, there's only two half-bloods left: Trunks and Gohan, so Paragus decides it's not worth his time. This also affects Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans: Dr. Raichi instead sends Hatchyiak to New Vegeta (since Paragus and Broly are the only full-blooded Saiyans left), and since he and Broly are about the same strength, they kill each other in a lethal draw.
• Bojack Unbound never happens because Kaio's world is never destroyed by Goku and Cell, so he and his cohorts are still stuck inside it.
• Since Broly doesn't happen, neither do Second Coming or Bio-Broly. The Biowarriors from the latter could still be created, but they can be killed by anyone else on the planet like Gohan or 17+18.
• A version of Fusion Reborn can still happen because it takes place almost entirely in Other World.
• Since Piccolo is dead and the Dragon balls turned to stone, Wrath of the Dragon doesn't happen.
• As for the Buu Arc, I propose a more interesting solution than Daizenshuu 6's: Babidi does appear, but tries to gain power from the strongest beings left on the planet: 17 and 18. Since they're Androids they're unaffected by the both ki extractor AND the "Majin" spell, and they kill him and blow up his spaceship (with Buu inside) for wasting their time.

[Koitsukai]

snip

Amazing, fantastic work. Even though I prefer to have them as part of different continuities, you actually found a way to make them all be part of one big story, that's awesome. Vegeta sending a scout was great, Goku using Omen SS on Namek is fun and it sets up the SS legend, it also re-tells Slug's place in the power hierarchy, IIRC, Kaio says he might be stronger than Freeza.

One little thing about the 9 days prior to the Cell Games, though, the Super 13 movie happens in a happy, carefree world, everybody is shopping and having lunch when they were running for their lifes in the anime in those days before the Cell Games. This, too, happens in the Broly movie, people are enrolling their kids in school, there's no sense of inminent danger or apocalypse vibe.
So, maybe Cell wasn't as vocal as in the anime about the event, or hadn't even shown his face yet, being a complete stranger up until the day the Cell Games started and he died.

Maybe Future Trunks didn't die at the Cell Games, that's why he stayed around for a while (and left his hair as it was). A two-armed Gohan defeated Cell on sight.

Anyway, that was a fun read, thanks.

[KBABZ]

Amazing, fantastic work. Even though I prefer to have them as part of different continuities, you actually found a way to make them all be part of one big story, that's awesome. Vegeta sending a scout was great, Goku using Omen SS on Namek is fun and it sets up the SS legend, it also re-tells Slug's place in the power hierarchy, IIRC, Kaio says he might be stronger than Freeza.

Thank you!! I'm glad you liked it! : )

One little thing about the 9 days prior to the Cell Games, though, the Super 13 movie happens in a happy, carefree world, everybody is shopping and having lunch when they were running for their lifes in the anime in those days before the Cell Games. This, too, happens in the Broly movie, people are enrolling their kids in school, there's no sense of inminent danger or apocalypse vibe.
So, maybe Cell wasn't as vocal as in the anime about the event, or hadn't even shown his face yet, being a complete stranger up until the day the Cell Games started and he died.

That's a good point actually. In that case I'd say that Cell doesn't advertise the Cell Games until after those two movies happen and he wants to spice things up a bit by terrorizing the people of Earth.

Maybe Future Trunks didn't die at the Cell Games, that's why he stayed around for a while (and left his hair as it was). A two-armed Gohan defeated Cell on sight.

In Bojack, Bulma explains that Trunks did in fact travel back from the future to tell them the good news, early in the movie. I was surprised but happy to get a proper explanation!