Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

[Kunzait_83]

We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.

That's exactly what it sounds like though.

There was a user on this forum some years ago named PenguinTruth who used to shout the same thing.

Granted I'm not saying there's no merit to the claim ( btw I enjoyed both growing up and yes I prefer the modern dubs with a more faithful script or just the original JP broadcasting overall) but what I AM saying is that I cant imagine walking into a break room at work and I overhear some dudes listening to the SS3 Goku theme or Cell's theme while they reminisce over the show, I walk up to them and go "Oh Naw, that's not the real DBZ, y'all like that goofy English shit, The Kikuchi score is far superior and fits the tone of the series more". Even though that's true, it also absolutely REEKS of poindexter.. and no one likes a poindexter.

First of all, let me get this out of the way first:

This isn't a "true fan" thing. Particularly in my case, since I'm about as vehement a person as you'll find who finds the whole "true fan" notion to be laughably fucking idiotic and childish/infantile.

I'm not accusing anyone of not being a "real Dragon Ball fan". I 1000% believe, clearly, that dub fans are absolutely sincere and dedicated to their version and are absolutely heartfelt in their love and devotion to it. That's wonderful for them. Genuinely.

Rather what I'm saying is... the Akira Toriyama and FUNimation takes on Dragon Ball share a name and a face, but not an identity. I don't doubt whatsoever that fans of the latter version are anything other than totally genuine and passionate, and that is, I cannont stress this enough, perfectly fine and lovely for them: but end of the day we don't like the same fucking thing as one another. We just don't.

This isn't a "you're not a real Dragon Ball fan!" thing and this certainly isn't a "I'm a better Dragon Ball fan than you are!" thing (which I cannot stress enough is beyond idiotic and silly). Rather this is more a "we don't really have any actual common ground to meet together on" thing. This is a "why are we even talking to one another like we're talking about the same thing, when we're obviously not?" thing. I don't look down my nose at these folks, rather I'm just wondering "why are we even in the same fucking building together?"

So that's the first part. Secondly though is... why are you inventing some ridiculous, absurd scenario that is in no way relevant to anything that's being said or is actually happening here? Not to state the obvious here or anything but... we're not in the breakroom at wherever you work or at where whomever else here works: we're on a Dragon Ball internet forum full of Dragon Ball uber nerds.

This isn't some "casual chat" between work buddies who happened to casually watch a few episodes of this old TV show years and years ago (which, I cannot stress this enough, I really, REALLY couldn't care less about): this is literally a place where the whole point of being here is to go super nuanced and detailed about anything and everything related to this series and its broader history in as hyper specific and meticulously as possible.

This forum is literally about as FAR removed and as polar diametric opposite of an environment as the one you laid out in that scenario as can conceivably be. You're making a ludicrous false equivalence between two entirely different scenarios with entirely different contexts. Hypothetically speaking, if I worked where you worked and that conversation you described was going on, would I then butt into it and go "Well ackshully in the original Manga, Cell and Goku said..."

Uh... no. No I would not. I honestly probably wouldn't even say anything and would just ignore the conversation entirely and mind my own fucking business. I don't give two shits ultimately what it is that people are into or like. That's on them and I've got FAR more than enough of my own shit to deal with frankly.

All I said was, there are more than enough differences in both the nuts and bolts core being of the material itself as well as what it is within it that primarily draws these different sets of fanbases to it, that I think we can make a reasonably strong case that the differences between versions are so stark and run so deep, that when you throw together the fanbases who's sphere of focus is firmly fixed on one versus the other that we're all fundamentally just not talking about the same series, and certainly in many cases not even the same characters.

Are we really going to sit here and pretend like Schemmel's Goku for example is the same guy as Toriyama/Nozawa's Goku? With a straight face, we're SERIOUSLY going to pretend like we're all talking about the same character here much of the time? And pretend that time and time again countlessly, someone at some point has no choice but to pipe up and remind people "Yeah uh, actually he didn't say or do this here in this particular version. That was only in X or Y version." And that these are oftentimes big character defining things, not just trivial nerd details.

We all like something that is called Dragon Ball and shares its art style and VERY broad beats (though sometimes not even then in some cases): but we don't like the same work ultimately. I'm sorry, I've been here at Kanz for 17 years, and in DB fandom broadly for...fuck, 29 years now (egads!): I'm more than beyond certain at this point that personally I don't have almost ANY common ground, and I mean whatsoever, in terms of DB-related topics with someone for whom DB is "The Greatest Action Cartoon of All Time!" from Cartoon Network's "glory years". I think I've given it more than long enough time to make that appraisal.

We're not fans of the same thing, we don't share the same interest as one another. Period. That doesn't mean that I "look down" on them or that I "condescend" to them or think that I'm "above" them for it. Why the fuck would I? That makes ZERO sense. This isn't an RPG, there are no "tiers" or "levels" to any of this stupid, stupid crap.

All it means is that we simply don't like nor are we interested in the same thing as one another: so why are we collectively in a community talking about these two different things like they're the same thing when they clearly, obviously are not? And furthermore when our whole point of reference for them is so CLEARLY detached from one another to the point of being almost wholly unrelated?

And since this more than likely needs to be spelled out yet again for the cheap seats: I put absolutely NONE of the blame for this divide on ANY of the fans in EITHER camp. The blame for this divide is 1000% ENTIRELY on FUNimation itself, period, end-of. They created this splinter, and completely needlessly: everyone else are just, for the most part anyway, reacting to it accordingly.

The only thing that I WILL put on fans however, is for constantly going out of their way to make all of this shit so stupefying personal so much of the time, and for constantly interpreting criticism of a work of fucking fiction as a personal slight on themselves.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

The point seems to have been covered at length already, but speaking for myself here, I have been engaged in or witnessed real-life school/work conversations where people reminisce about Ocean or Faulconer-era DBZ. As someone who grew up on both, I enjoy seeing people reminisce over the cartoon they grew up with. And it is fun to revisit those moments with others who grew up with Toonami.

A Poindexter would tell someone they couldn't enjoy those versions because they're the wrong versions. No one here is coming off that way; it's more along the lines of saying that dub fans should like what they like while acknowledging that it is a fundamentally different product. I have a huge issue with gatekeeping myself and would have called it out the moment I detected it, but I wasn't getting that type of energy here. And my comment about "dudebros" wasn't meant to shame people who love Faulconer DBZ the most; it's moreso that they generally don't acknowledge what Dragon Ball actually is, hence the very surface-level "Goku old lady" and "weird music" criticisms. It would be another thing if they said "Goku's old lady voice isn't for me, but I get it," etc. I made that comment moreso considering the possibility that some of those fans might open up to the sub someday.

Anyway at the end of the day I don't care what anyone does. They'll either accept Japanese DB or they won't. But to me this conversation feels less like gatekeeping, more like encouraging people (in this case, dub fans who aren't open to the original version, none of which are here, I'm assuming) to broaden their perspective.

[GhostEmperorX]

We're not fans of the same thing, we don't share the same interest as one another. Period. That doesn't mean that I "look down" on them or that I "condescend" to them or think that I'm "above" them for it. Why the fuck would I? That makes ZERO sense. This isn't an RPG, there are no "tiers" or "levels" to any of this stupid, stupid crap.

All it means is that we simply don't like nor are we interested in the same thing as one another: so why are we collectively in a community talking about these two different things like they're the same thing when they clearly, obviously are not? And furthermore when our whole point of reference for them is so CLEARLY detached from one another to the point of being almost wholly unrelated?

And since this more than likely needs to be spelled out yet again for the cheap seats: I put absolutely NONE of the blame for this divide on ANY of the fans in EITHER camp. The blame for this divide is 1000% ENTIRELY on FUNimation itself, period, end-of. They created this splinter, and completely needlessly: everyone else are just, for the most part anyway, reacting to it accordingly.

The only thing that I WILL put on fans however, is for constantly going out of their way to make all of this shit so stupefying personal so much of the time, and for constantly interpreting criticism of a work of fucking fiction as a personal slight on themselves.

/thread

Absolutely correct, "different" doesn't necessarily have to mean "superior" or "inferior" when talking about just interests or plain preference. But this is lost on many.

[sunsetshimmer]

I'd never heard anyone being called a "GT fanboy" before 2015, but now it's incessantly used whenever someone criticizes Super or claims that GT is canon.

That's mostly just a denial, nothing to be concerned about. People who watched both series without negative attitude from the start and simply prefer Super and can give some arguments why they like it more, do not participate in that really. Calling people "GT fanboys" or saying "At least it's better than GT", basically bringing up GT even if it wasn't mentioned, whenever you criticize Super is admitting that you're right. It's kinda sad that the only defence for Super some people can come with is "still better than GT" and that's not even a fact but just opinion everyone is entitled to have.

Also i guess some people are simply mad that part of fanbase started to appreciate GT more as well as started to discuss which series is a better (or rather - worse) sequel.

Also:

Orange Brick fans vs Dragon Box fans

I don't get how is that even a thing. I mean what kind of defence people actually have for those stretched and lacking any details orange bricks?

[90sDBZ]

I disagree with the idea that dub fans and sub fans should avoid all contact. A lot of good can come from the 2 sides interacting. A lot of people on this forum never would have watched the Japanese version if they hadn't been discussing it with those who had.

And at this point in time the differences between dub and sub have lessened to the point were things aren't as different as they once were. It's pretty common knowledge these days that Goku's character was altered by Funimation to be more heroic, and Z dub fans watching Kai and Super in Japanese has spread that knowledge further.

If you want to take it a step further you could argue that fans of the Manga shouldn't talk to fans of the anime, as Toriyama had already expressed frustration with the tone being altered there too. Technically speaking they aren't the same thing either.

[GhostEmperorX]

If you want to take it a step further you could argue that fans of the Manga shouldn't talk to fans of the anime, as Toriyama had already expressed frustration with the tone being altered there too. Technically speaking they aren't the same thing either.

Apples to oranges here. The scale of alteration is much lower there by orders of magnitude.

[goku the krump dancer]

This isn't a "true fan" thing. Particularly in my case, since I'm about as vehement a person as you'll find who finds the whole "true fan" notion to be laughably fucking idiotic and childish/infantile.

I'm not accusing anyone of not being a "real Dragon Ball fan". I 1000% believe, clearly, that dub fans are absolutely sincere and dedicated to their version and are absolutely heartfelt in their love and devotion to it. That's wonderful for them. Genuinely.

Rather what I'm saying is... the Akira Toriyama and FUNimation takes on Dragon Ball share a name and a face, but not an identity. I don't doubt whatsoever that fans of the latter version are anything other than totally genuine and passionate, and that is, I cannont stress this enough, perfectly fine and lovely for them: but end of the day we don't like the same fucking thing as one another. We just don't.

This isn't a "you're not a real Dragon Ball fan!" thing and this certainly isn't a "I'm a better Dragon Ball fan than you are!"

At the end of the day, this is all that matters and what my point was referring to. I'm absolutely elated that no one (here at least) is going out of there way to "Nuh uh ya dumb fuck" people to death when in most cases its not warranted. Or maybe it is warranted, maybe I anecdotally don't see it as much as others because I hardly ever partake in Dub vs Sub debates be it here on Kanzenshuu or anywhere else (real life included) because I'm in the small minority that genuinely enjoy both casts.

So again I GET IT, I understand the sentiment behind "Those aren't the same thing" its just some times when I read

we don't like the same fucking thing as one another. We just don't.

to me it can give off condescending energy not because I project my own personal feelings toward one thing or the other and I thought I made that clear in previous conversations about other topics.. its just that it seems a like a bit much when at the very least a very broad conversation about the same story beats can be had between two fans of either side where's with something like John Carpenter's Halloween 1978 to Rob Zombie's Halloween 2007, its damn near impossible or Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger to Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong for feeling like they cant casually converse with a DEE BEE ZEE normie because of the differences between the two versions and your overall knowledge of the series I absolutely understand that, which is why I dont really discuss Dragon Ball much outside of this forum as i've stated before. Hell I barely talk about anime in general with people who hopped on the train post 2010 as most of the conversations at least on social media make me wanna bang my head on the street. I just needed clarification on when

we don't like the same fucking thing as one another. We just don't.

was applicable and I got my answer.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

If you want to take it a step further you could argue that fans of the Manga shouldn't talk to fans of the anime, as Toriyama had already expressed frustration with the tone being altered there too. Technically speaking they aren't the same thing either.

That's being extremely technical. I get what you're saying and even agree with the point of your overall post, but that's not really applicable to this situation. Although it is to the topic in general that the OP proposed, since there is some in-fighting between manga and anime fans. Of the bunch though, I feel this is the least prevalent.

[Adamant]

If Funi had called their dub "Adventures of Goku" or... anything else other than Dragon Ball, Funiball fans would be in total agreement that they weren't fans of the same thing as Dragonball fans. It really boils down to forcing this bizarre "we like things that have the same name so we like the same thing" idea. goku the krump dancer mentioned Zyuranger and MMPR, and somehow I doubt there are all these Power Rangers fans out there inisting they're "just as real fans of Zyuranger as anyone else".

[Majin Buu]

So again I GET IT, I understand the sentiment behind "Those aren't the same thing" its just some times when I read

we don't like the same fucking thing as one another. We just don't.

to me it can give off condescending energy not because I project my own personal feelings toward one thing or the other and I thought I made that clear in previous conversations about other topics.. its just that it seems a like a bit much when at the very least a very broad conversation about the same story beats can be had between two fans of either side where's with something like John Carpenter's Halloween 1978 to Rob Zombie's Halloween 2007, its damn near impossible or Kyoryu Sentai Zyuranger to Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

Likewise, I sometimes get a double standard vibe from dub fans in that many of them don't seem to practice what they preach when it comes to sub fans. Namely: Dub fans get to proclaim all they want that they like the dub and all the changes it made, they're just liking what they like; but whenever a sub fan dares to say that they don't like the dub and prefer the Japanese version because of all of those changes the dub made, it's not long before off-base criticisms like "condescending" or "elitist" start getting thrown out, like what happened in this very thread. Dub fans get to complain about the Japanese version with derisive terms like "Granny Goku", but whenever sub fans like Kunzait dare to strongly word their displeasure with the dub, they're the ones that need to be tone policed.

You weren't exactly doing this, and to your credit you did elaborate that you only wanted clarification on Kunzait's statement, but you and DBZfan94 did feel the need to call him out like he was being out of line when he was just stating a simple fact about the two versions. I feel like a dub fan making an equivalent factual statement about the Japanese version would not have had that kind of tone policing thrown at them.

And like you said, conversations between the two sides can only be had in the broad strokes, it's when those conversations start going into the details where significant inaccuracies like "Freeza made Vegeta what he is" and "Vegeta reached Super Saiyan because he stopped caring" start derailing things.

[90sDBZ]

If you want to take it a step further you could argue that fans of the Manga shouldn't talk to fans of the anime, as Toriyama had already expressed frustration with the tone being altered there too. Technically speaking they aren't the same thing either.

Apples to oranges here. The scale of alteration is much lower there by orders of magnitude.

Perhaps the scale is lower, but still significant enough for Toriyama to comment on in frustration. In fact it's significant enough that Toriyama and Nozawa both view Goku completely differently to one another.

When DBS Broly came out there was an interview with the 2. I'm paraphrasing, but Nozawa essentially described Goku as this noble figure who sees the good in everyone and makes the world a better place. Then you have interviews with Toriyama describing Goku as poisonous, selfish, and a disaster as a father. That's a pretty stark difference right there. You might even say they have completely opposite views of the character.

There was even a part of that Broly interview were Nozawa said the world would be a better place if everyone were like Goku. Toriyama jokingly replied that the world wouldn't function well.

If Funi had called their dub "Adventures of Goku" or... anything else other than Dragon Ball, Funiball fans would be in total agreement that they weren't fans of the same thing as Dragonball fans. It really boils down to forcing this bizarre "we like things that have the same name so we like the same thing" idea. goku the krump dancer mentioned Zyuranger and MMPR, and somehow I doubt there are all these Power Rangers fans out there inisting they're "just as real fans of Zyuranger as anyone else".

But Power Rangers went as far as completely changing the whole story, changing loads of the visuals, and filming entirely new scenes. It made sense to rename that show. With DBZ the basic story was very much the same, and no new visuals were added aside from some censorship. It still revolved around the Dragon Balls and Z warriors, so the name Dragon Ball Z still made sense.

[Cursed Lemon]

SSJ2 kid Gohan vs. Broly used to be a hot topic, lol

[VegettoEX]

I'd like to pull it back around to the original question, as well. Here are a couple posts that I always love sharing, because it helps show that not much has changed over the years, other than new groups of fans cycling in and out.

This was posted in 1997:




This was posted in 1998:

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Likewise, I sometimes get a double standard vibe from dub fans in that many of them don't seem to practice what they preach when it comes to sub fans. Namely: Dub fans get to proclaim all they want that they like the dub and all the changes it made, they're just liking what they like; but whenever a sub fan dares to say that they don't like the dub and prefer the Japanese version because of all of those changes the dub made, it's not long before off-base criticisms like "condescending" or "elitist" start getting thrown out, like what happened in this very thread. Dub fans get to complain about the Japanese version with derisive terms like "Granny Goku", but whenever sub fans like Kunzait dare to strongly word their displeasure with the dub, they're the ones that need to be tone policed.

You weren't exactly doing this, and to your credit you did elaborate that you only wanted clarification on Kunzait's statement, but you and DBZfan94 did feel the need to call him out like he was being out of line when he was just stating a simple fact about the two versions. I feel like a dub fan making an equivalent factual statement about the Japanese version would not have had that kind of tone policing thrown at them.

And like you said, conversations between the two sides can only be had in the broad strokes, it's when those conversations start going into the details where significant inaccuracies like "Freeza made Vegeta what he is" and "Vegeta reached Super Saiyan because he stopped caring" start derailing things.

Well said. I also think fans of the dub tend to be more defensive because the dub has been ripped apart time and time again (albeit for good reason, and I say that as someone with fondness for it). Not speaking of anyone here, but when strong dislike is involved, some of the sub fans don't express their opinions in a way that endears dub fans to watch the sub. That only makes fans of the dub more obstinate in championing the dub. And thus the wheel keeps turning. When sub fans provide actual facts about the series without disparaging the other group, they're shot down immediately by dub fans and called "elitist" or "weebs" when in reality, said reaction is more elitist. It's almost like in school when the teacher calls on a kid who answers a tricky question right. The kid isn't trying to belittle their classmates by being being more knowledgable on a subject, they've just studied more or like the material, etc. But immediately some of the classmates make incorrect assumptions that said classmate thinks they are smarter and better than everyone else. Again, not accusing anyone here of doing that; if anything the discussion here has been a "best case scenario" of how discussions like this normally go on the internet.

[JulieYBM]

Honestly, I've been thinking lately that the very premise of 'in-fighting' just sounds ridiculous. I just can't help but think "who cares?!" Because I try not to see my fandom in relation to other peoples' because nobody is a monolith.

I dunno. I'm just shrugging my shoulders here.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Honestly, I've been thinking lately that the very premise of 'in-fighting' just sounds ridiculous. I just can't help but think "who cares?!" Because I try not to see my fandom in relation to other peoples' because nobody is a monolith.

I dunno. I'm just shrugging my shoulders here.

That's because it is ridiculous. I think it's always been a thing, but with the internet it's become even much more pronounced since there are so many more channels to interact, and some people are easily influenced by opinions that they see. On the flip side, the internet has opened up ways to have great discussions also. As a Star Wars fan, I learned my lesson with the new Star Wars movie. People on both "sides" (another notion I dislike lol) constantly bickering and insulting one another over opinions on a movie. I used to get really invested in that stuff but stepped away. If I like something, I may as well continue to enjoy it, and if I don't then I shouldn't make it what I focus on.

[pepd]

I think this friction is originated from the same problem as the canon discussion: The common attribution of value and implications onto descriptive, non-value, qualities; people either assume (maybe because some actual gatekeeping they have seen somewhere else) they are implying it, or they themselves perceive the qualities as having intrinsical value. (Tho I guess in the canon discussion there is some technical truths to try to negate the descriptive quality, while in Funi dub's case there is no way out of the perceived "gatekeeping").
I mean, just look at this here, even after Kunzait stressing something that was clear in what he initially wrote, and people listening to it, the feeling of it carrying such implications remains.
---

I disagree with the idea that dub fans and sub fans should avoid all contact. A lot of good can come from the 2 sides interacting. A lot of people on this forum never would have watched the Japanese version if they hadn't been discussing it with those who had.

And at this point in time the differences between dub and sub have lessened to the point were things aren't as different as they once were. It's pretty common knowledge these days that Goku's character was altered by Funimation to be more heroic, and Z dub fans watching Kai and Super in Japanese has spread that knowledge further.

If you want to take it a step further you could argue that fans of the Manga shouldn't talk to fans of the anime, as Toriyama had already expressed frustration with the tone being altered there too. Technically speaking they aren't the same thing either.

I don't think he meant that:

"why are we even talking to one another like we're talking about the same thing, when we're obviously not?"

And yes, the anime and manga are also not the same, but the needed differentiation is less, and the concept of "filler" facilitates the discussion.

[Nagyzöld]

Apart from what's been discussed, other topics I've seen fought about would be:

- power levels. This has been a subject which people would get too passionate about, which I personally find trivial at most. I understand how they were a plot trigger in the first half of Z with the scouters and all that shit, but how they were still a thing after Frieza saga beats me. Still fans would put lots of energy in calculating power levels of random characters in random moments or fights and would sometimes get into pages long disagreements if their numbers mismatched. That was back in the days on forums which used to be pretty active in the 2010's, not sure if they still are nowadays. I even remember there was a scale of how big of a DB fan you are with lowest levels being like you played the games and maybe watched a few episodes to the highest levels being like you can cite manga off the top of your head and PL knowledge was also involved. So yes, it kind of sent off elitism vibes.

- X character vs Y character. Speaking of the forums/boards above, there were entire sections dedicated to "VS-isms". God forbid you entered those undocumented, you didn't want a diehard fanboy smashing your head with a manga page with this specific commentary of some character who proves his point right. Forever.

- Goku haters vs Goku lovers. I encountered those mainly on YouTube and comment boards. I will admit I'm a little biased here, I also hated Goku for how he was portrayed in Super and how he does stupid shit without suffering consequences. But Goku lovers cannot stand any sort of criticism as if they wanted everyone to hold him on a pedestal. See the scene where Goku disobeys Beerus and goes to Zeno to ask for the tournament. There are people who truly believe Goku did a heroic thing and will die on the battlefield defending him.

[GhostEmperorX]

- power levels. This has been a subject which people would get too passionate about, which I personally find trivial at most. I understand how they were a plot trigger in the first half of Z with the scouters and all that shit, but how they were still a thing after Frieza saga beats me. Still fans would put lots of energy in calculating power levels of random characters in random moments or fights and would sometimes get into pages long disagreements if their numbers mismatched. That was back in the days on forums which used to be pretty active in the 2010's, not sure if they still are nowadays. I even remember there was a scale of how big of a DB fan you are with lowest levels being like you played the games and maybe watched a few episodes to the highest levels being like you can cite manga off the top of your head and PL knowledge was also involved. So yes, it kind of sent off elitism vibes.

- X character vs Y character. Speaking of the forums/boards above, there were entire sections dedicated to "VS-isms". God forbid you entered those undocumented, you didn't want a diehard fanboy smashing your head with a manga page with this specific commentary of some character who proves his point right. Forever.

Now these two are topics I have a strong distaste for (especially #2). Any of that could easily be written in any way at all for whatever reason, they’re just narrative tools in the end, nothing more.
And yea, those kinds of forums have outlived their usefulness, which is a good thing in hindsight.

[MasenkoHA]

Apart from what's been discussed, other topics I've seen fought about would be:

- power levels. This has been a subject which people would get too passionate about, which I personally find trivial at most. I understand how they were a plot trigger in the first half of Z with the scouters and all that shit, but how they were still a thing after Frieza saga beats me. Still fans would put lots of energy in calculating power levels of random characters in random moments or fights and would sometimes get into pages long disagreements if their numbers mismatched. That was back in the days on forums which used to be pretty active in the 2010's, not sure if they still are nowadays. I even remember there was a scale of how big of a DB fan you are with lowest levels being like you played the games and maybe watched a few episodes to the highest levels being like you can cite manga off the top of your head and PL knowledge was also involved. So yes, it kind of sent off elitism vibes.

Even worse when you get those fans who have their own power levels in place of what was stated in the manga. Because they understand Toriyama’s made up arbitrary system better than he does. It’s another level of turbo nerdom and smarmy poindexterism.

- X character vs Y character. Speaking of the forums/boards above, there were entire sections dedicated to "VS-isms". God forbid you entered those undocumented, you didn't want a diehard fanboy smashing your head with a manga page with this specific commentary of some character who proves his point right. Forever.

Yes, oh God, yes. I could not care less if Piccolo fused with Kami could beat Freeza at full power after eating a protein bar on Namek. This whole mess of treating these characters like Pokemon with stats, and ivs, and movesets will never click with me.