In hindsight, what are your opinions on Infinite Zamasu (manga and anime versions)?

[SupremeKai25]

One thing I especially like about both of these endings is the potential they have for some cool videogame stuff down the road. I'd love to see a future Dragon Ball game do a "What If" scenario involving a Vegeta who has his forced spirit fission technique being plopped into this fight.

To be honest I've always wanted Xenoverse 2 to do something with it. Like maybe a special stage set when Infinite Zamasu has already taken over, with the creepy faces in the sky and everything destroyed. There is a mod about it though.

I also don't know if Infinite Zamasu could ever be playable in a videogame, the technology might not be there yet

[Kodoshin]

One thing I especially like about both of these endings is the potential they have for some cool videogame stuff down the road. I'd love to see a future Dragon Ball game do a "What If" scenario involving a Vegeta who has his forced spirit fission technique being plopped into this fight.

To be honest I've always wanted Xenoverse 2 to do something with it. Like maybe a special stage set when Infinite Zamasu has already taken over, with the creepy faces in the sky and everything destroyed. There is a mod about it though.

I also don't know if Infinite Zamasu could ever be playable in a videogame, the technology might not be there yet

Now you've made me curious as to how Infinite Zamasu would operate as a character in FighterZ. Perhaps he'd be a totally unique fighter with some sort of menu based interface. I wonder how the other characters would interact with him. It'd be a very delicate balance to strike and a super unique character that's for sure.

[Koitsukai]

One thing I especially like about both of these endings is the potential they have for some cool videogame stuff down the road. I'd love to see a future Dragon Ball game do a "What If" scenario involving a Vegeta who has his forced spirit fission technique being plopped into this fight.

To be honest I've always wanted Xenoverse 2 to do something with it. Like maybe a special stage set when Infinite Zamasu has already taken over, with the creepy faces in the sky and everything destroyed. There is a mod about it though.

I also don't know if Infinite Zamasu could ever be playable in a videogame, the technology might not be there yet

Now you've made me curious as to how Infinite Zamasu would operate as a character in FighterZ. Perhaps he'd be a totally unique fighter with some sort of menu based interface. I wonder how the other characters would interact with him. It'd be a very delicate balance to strike and a super unique character that's for sure.

They could give him a dramatic finish where he is attacked beyond repair... yet he comes back and merges with everything and trashes his opponent. If they don't want or know how to make him playable.

[LoganForkHands73]

To be honest I've always wanted Xenoverse 2 to do something with it. Like maybe a special stage set when Infinite Zamasu has already taken over, with the creepy faces in the sky and everything destroyed. There is a mod about it though.

I also don't know if Infinite Zamasu could ever be playable in a videogame, the technology might not be there yet

If you're familiar with the fighting game engine M.U.G.E.N, maybe anime Infinite Zamasu could work like The_None's Giygas. Just a complete mindfuck boss character who lurks behind the battlefield and interferes with the player's controls.

Meanwhile, the manga version is just an endless boss rush of Fusion Zamasus piling onto the screen, dozens at a time. In both scenarios, the only way to win is to hit the convenient bullshit Zeno button.

[ZombieVito]

I vastly prefer the way the anime handled it. It not only conveyed how desperate Zamasu was to achieve his goal but also illustrated the consequences of Zamasu's decision to fuse with Goku Black. He not only lost his immortality but due to Goku's Saiyan biology, he mutated as a result of the anger he was experiencing until he became an abomination that was completely consumed by his rage against the mortals. I felt that it was more fitting since it cleverly ties how Saiyans grow stronger and transform from rage and how that had a significant impact on Merged Zamasu.

The manga's version wasn't bad but it felt more boring to watch and we don't really witness the psychological toll that Zamasu experienced compared to the anime's.

Zamasu was actually still immortal. He just had a body that could be destroyed thanks to Goku Black.

[OLKv3]

After 1 year I've changed my mind, the manga version is stupid. It doesn't justify the erasure of an entire timeline, since Zeno could have simply erased the Earth. Meanwhile in the anime Zamasu had already merged with the entire cosmos and was even affecting other timelines.

I don't know why Toyotaro didn't have the balls to copy what the anime did tbh, Zamasu becoming a Multiversal entity that transcended time was perfect and is (one of) the many reasons why Zamasu is the best villain.

You guys don't understand Zeno. Earlier in the arc, and again in the ToP, they tell us Zeno eliminated an entire line of universes over something trivial just because he was annoyed. He doesn't need a justified reason to erase entire timelines, he just needs to be angry. Zamasu pissed him off and he wiped out life because of it.

[Aim]

In the manga, they literally used the "infinite Zamasu" concept by showing seemingly infinite clones. Eh, nothing to write home about it. The idea of clones isn't interesting to me. In the anime, it was slightly better, becoming one with the Universe was cool, if we get to see that. I might be misremembering, but all I remember was Zamasu affecting Earth's sky only, not the whole Universe. At any rate, it was kinda cool.

The saga actually ends with Trunks living with himself, and oh boy if that isn't the most crap ending I have seen in all fiction.

Thanks for commenting, and fair do's. Funnily enough, I should've mentioned that I too used to dislike the manga's version. Admittedly, on paper, clones aren't too impressive. It's kinda funny to me that one sounded really basic on paper but was executed well, and the other was a really high concept idea that wasn't quite done justice, in my opinion anyway.

It was a great twist and one of the reasons why Zamasu is such a memorable villain. He was the only villain who successfully killed everyone in the universe, and not even the Dragon Balls could undo the damage he caused. It took literally Zeno to defeat him.

I don't think I have a favourite, I loved both incarnations. They both achieved what they were going for:

In both pictures you can feel a sense of utter hopelessness and desperation. There is literally nowhere else to go, the protagonists are backed into a corner against an unstoppable and immortal villain. If I really had to choose a favourite, I would go for the anime version, simply because of his creepy and constant laugh. That was very scary, especially when you take into consideration who Zamasu was. He was elegant, polite, intelligent, so to see him reduced into a state where he could only cackle maniacally was chilling and sad.

I still don't get how Zamasu wasn't the final villain.... how can people like Moro even come close to that level of destruction? Literally the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE was annihilated! That kind of scale is something that should be kept for a grand final arc.

Nice! I was looking forward to your contribution.

One problem people have with the twist is that it feels like a cheat after Trunks got his "ep1c w1n", which is fair, but Dragon Ball villains cheat at the last minute all the time. Frieza surviving the Spirit Bomb, Cell surviving his own self-destruct, all the crap Majin Buu pulls over the course of his arc. Dragon Ball never gives its protagonists a break In some ways I guess you could say that they maybe took it too far in the anime, since as you said, realistically a villain of this scope should be the last villain ever with huge consequences for his existence. I think the manga version strikes a perfect balance with the implication of this massive, growing threat that will keep expanding until Zeno puts a stop to it.

I wish some things were handled better in both versions, namely more lasting consequences. Infinite Zamasu destroys Trunks' world, but the fact that Trunks just goes back to another identical one is way more of a cop out to me, and really all we're left is is Future Zeno being introduced for the Tournament of Power. I wish Trunks had just stayed in the normal timeline. But that's a debate for plenty of other threads. I'm just glad Infinite Zamasu has fans!

But it should be a cheat, shouldn't it? He was granted immortality by the Super Dragon Balls, which can grant any wish you want. To give you an idea of how OP they are, by Beerus' own admission not even hakai could take care of Zamasu once he got immortality. A character who possesses perfect immortality is bound to be a "cheat character".

Your second argument about lasting consequences is true, but I'm still fairly confident that the presence of two Zeno will lead to something major in the future (we'll see once the goat man arc finally comes to an end).

I still believe in the "Future Zeno = Zamasu" theory btw. Because why not, anything can happen.

Is it ever confirmed that the reason he didn’t get erased from the future was because he was immortal? I don’t think that was ever the case, like, Trunks wouldn’t just disappear if his present self wasn’t born, they are separate timelines.

[capsulecorp]

Unfortunately, by the time he became infinite, I was so emotionally checked out of the story that neither version left much of an impression. However, I do remember thinking the Zamasu sky effect was especially unimaginative and unappealing looking.

[Aim]

I’d love to see Toriyama’s take on this all, especially the ending. I wonder if it was his idea to have Trunks and Mai go live with themselves?

[SupremeKai25]

Is it ever confirmed that the reason he didn’t get erased from the future was because he was immortal? I don’t think that was ever the case, like, Trunks wouldn’t just disappear if his present self wasn’t born, they are separate timelines.

Yes. Zamasu's immortality always protected him from erasure.

As directly stated by Beerus, not even a Destroyer's Hakai can harm Zamasu, which means that not even the strongest Saiyans (Vegito, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks...) could kill him. This is why in the new Future timeline create at the point before Black and Zamasu attack, Whis will use his Angel powers to seal Immortal Zamasu. Because not even Lord Beerus' Hakai can destroy an Immortal being like Zamasu.

When Zamasu's spirit merges with the Cosmos, it is directly stated that this was possible thanks to Super Shenron's power, which allowed Zamasu's spirit to remain in the living world even after the destruction of his physical body.

The other Zamasu, Goku Black, wasn't protected by Immortality though, he was protected by the Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from anything that happened in the Time-Space continuum, which is why he didn't cease to exist when Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (his counterpart).

[Aim]

Is it ever confirmed that the reason he didn’t get erased from the future was because he was immortal? I don’t think that was ever the case, like, Trunks wouldn’t just disappear if his present self wasn’t born, they are separate timelines.

Yes. Zamasu's immortality always protected him from erasure.

As directly stated by Beerus, not even a Destroyer's Hakai can harm Zamasu, which means that not even the strongest Saiyans (Vegito, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks...) could kill him. This is why in the new Future timeline create at the point before Black and Zamasu attack, Whis will use his Angel powers to seal Immortal Zamasu. Because not even Lord Beerus' Hakai can destroy an Immortal being like Zamasu.

When Zamasu's spirit merges with the Cosmos, it is directly stated that this was possible thanks to Super Shenron's power, which allowed Zamasu's spirit to remain in the living world even after the destruction of his physical body.

The other Zamasu, Goku Black, wasn't protected by Immortality though, he was protected by the Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from anything that happened in the Time-Space continuum, which is why he didn't cease to exist when Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (his counterpart).

This doesn’t make sense to me, I swear it was explained that just because the past is changed it doesn’t affect the future, instead it creates a new timeline where the effect is in place?

[SupremeKai25]

Is it ever confirmed that the reason he didn’t get erased from the future was because he was immortal? I don’t think that was ever the case, like, Trunks wouldn’t just disappear if his present self wasn’t born, they are separate timelines.

Yes. Zamasu's immortality always protected him from erasure.

As directly stated by Beerus, not even a Destroyer's Hakai can harm Zamasu, which means that not even the strongest Saiyans (Vegito, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks...) could kill him. This is why in the new Future timeline create at the point before Black and Zamasu attack, Whis will use his Angel powers to seal Immortal Zamasu. Because not even Lord Beerus' Hakai can destroy an Immortal being like Zamasu.

When Zamasu's spirit merges with the Cosmos, it is directly stated that this was possible thanks to Super Shenron's power, which allowed Zamasu's spirit to remain in the living world even after the destruction of his physical body.

The other Zamasu, Goku Black, wasn't protected by Immortality though, he was protected by the Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from anything that happened in the Time-Space continuum, which is why he didn't cease to exist when Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (his counterpart).

This doesn’t make sense to me, I swear it was explained that just because the past is changed it doesn’t affect the future, instead it creates a new timeline where the effect is in place?

When Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (i.e. Goku Black), he argued that Goku Black would have disappeared as well, because his past counterpart would have been destroyed. Which means he would have never been able to kill Gowasu, steal the Time Ring, make the wish, etc. So according to Beerus, destroying Present Zamasu would have automatically caused Goku Black to disappear and restored the Future timeline as it was before Black attacked, as if nothing happened.

Then it's revealed that this would have happened, if Black wasn't wearing a Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from any change made throughout the time-space continuum, which means that Black's (Present Zamasu) death at the hands of Beerus wouldn't have affected him. Even Beerus didn't know of this property of the Time Ring.

So here Yes, affecting the past would have changed the future. When Trunks goes back to the future after Present Zamasu is destroyed, he is disappointed. Because he was told by Beerus that destroying Present Zamasu would make Black "disappear" (since Beerus stopped Present Zamasu from becoming Black) and cause all of his future actions to be undone (which means that the planet would be restored to before Black attacked).

[Shintoki]

I’d love to see Toriyama’s take on this all, especially the ending. I wonder if it was his idea to have Trunks and Mai go live with themselves?

between TOP and the future timeline arc, the latter is definitely the most i most aspire to see toriyama's version off.

This can't be said enough, it's a LOSS that we never got to have a movie for it like ROF/BOG, even broly is gonna get redone at some point later on.

movie version of future timeline arc, however, is but a pipe dream. how did zamasu and goku black dynamic/shenanigans play out? how the final showdown went like? how toriyama chose to portray infinite zamasu? it's all cuz it never happened, but at least we can get a glimpse of it from the later movies.

[ZombieVito]

I’d love to see Toriyama’s take on this all, especially the ending. I wonder if it was his idea to have Trunks and Mai go live with themselves?

between TOP and the future timeline arc, the latter is definitely the most i most aspire to see toriyama's version off.

This can't be said enough, it's a LOSS that we never got to have a movie for it like ROF/BOG, even broly is gonna get redone at some point later on.

movie version of future timeline arc, however, is but a pipe dream. how did zamasu and goku black dynamic/shenanigans play out? how the final showdown went like? how toriyama chose to portray infinite zamasu? it's all cuz it never happened, but at least we can get a glimpse of it from the later movies.

A movie wouldn't be enough time.

[Aim]

Yes. Zamasu's immortality always protected him from erasure.

As directly stated by Beerus, not even a Destroyer's Hakai can harm Zamasu, which means that not even the strongest Saiyans (Vegito, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks...) could kill him. This is why in the new Future timeline create at the point before Black and Zamasu attack, Whis will use his Angel powers to seal Immortal Zamasu. Because not even Lord Beerus' Hakai can destroy an Immortal being like Zamasu.

When Zamasu's spirit merges with the Cosmos, it is directly stated that this was possible thanks to Super Shenron's power, which allowed Zamasu's spirit to remain in the living world even after the destruction of his physical body.

The other Zamasu, Goku Black, wasn't protected by Immortality though, he was protected by the Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from anything that happened in the Time-Space continuum, which is why he didn't cease to exist when Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (his counterpart).

This doesn’t make sense to me, I swear it was explained that just because the past is changed it doesn’t affect the future, instead it creates a new timeline where the effect is in place?

When Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (i.e. Goku Black), he argued that Goku Black would have disappeared as well, because his past counterpart would have been destroyed. Which means he would have never been able to kill Gowasu, steal the Time Ring, make the wish, etc. So according to Beerus, destroying Present Zamasu would have automatically caused Goku Black to disappear and restored the Future timeline as it was before Black attacked, as if nothing happened.

Then it's revealed that this would have happened, if Black wasn't wearing a Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from any change made throughout the time-space continuum, which means that Black's (Present Zamasu) death at the hands of Beerus wouldn't have affected him. Even Beerus didn't know of this property of the Time Ring.

So here Yes, affecting the past would have changed the future. When Trunks goes back to the future after Present Zamasu is destroyed, he is disappointed. Because he was told by Beerus that destroying Present Zamasu would make Black "disappear" (since Beerus stopped Present Zamasu from becoming Black) and cause all of his future actions to be undone (which means that the planet would be restored to before Black attacked).

That was a theory though, wasn’t it? Beerus wasn’t aware of how space time worked from the looks of it.

[Aim]

Yes. Zamasu's immortality always protected him from erasure.

As directly stated by Beerus, not even a Destroyer's Hakai can harm Zamasu, which means that not even the strongest Saiyans (Vegito, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks...) could kill him. This is why in the new Future timeline create at the point before Black and Zamasu attack, Whis will use his Angel powers to seal Immortal Zamasu. Because not even Lord Beerus' Hakai can destroy an Immortal being like Zamasu.

When Zamasu's spirit merges with the Cosmos, it is directly stated that this was possible thanks to Super Shenron's power, which allowed Zamasu's spirit to remain in the living world even after the destruction of his physical body.

The other Zamasu, Goku Black, wasn't protected by Immortality though, he was protected by the Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from anything that happened in the Time-Space continuum, which is why he didn't cease to exist when Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (his counterpart).

This doesn’t make sense to me, I swear it was explained that just because the past is changed it doesn’t affect the future, instead it creates a new timeline where the effect is in place?

When Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu (i.e. Goku Black), he argued that Goku Black would have disappeared as well, because his past counterpart would have been destroyed. Which means he would have never been able to kill Gowasu, steal the Time Ring, make the wish, etc. So according to Beerus, destroying Present Zamasu would have automatically caused Goku Black to disappear and restored the Future timeline as it was before Black attacked, as if nothing happened.

Then it's revealed that this would have happened, if Black wasn't wearing a Time Ring. The Time Ring protected him from any change made throughout the time-space continuum, which means that Black's (Present Zamasu) death at the hands of Beerus wouldn't have affected him. Even Beerus didn't know of this property of the Time Ring.

So here Yes, affecting the past would have changed the future. When Trunks goes back to the future after Present Zamasu is destroyed, he is disappointed. Because he was told by Beerus that destroying Present Zamasu would make Black "disappear" (since Beerus stopped Present Zamasu from becoming Black) and cause all of his future actions to be undone (which means that the planet would be restored to before Black attacked).

That was a theory though, wasn’t it? Beerus wasn’t aware of how space time worked from the looks of it.

[SupremeKai25]

That was a theory though, wasn’t it? Beerus wasn’t aware of how space time worked from the looks of it.

Well, Black didn't say Beerus was wrong about that theory, he simply says that Beerus didn't know of this property of the Time Ring (that it protects the user from changes made to the past).

Which implies that Beerus was indeed right about his theory that killing Zamasu in the past would cause Black to disappear in the future, but was not aware that the Time Ring protected Black from any change made at any point in the continuum Which would make sense since the Time Rings are typically used by the Supreme Kais, not the Destroyers.

And unfortunately we'll never know what would have happened if Black was cut off from his Time Ring (would he cease to exist and would all his actions be undone?) since this plot point was mentioned in one scene and then forgotten immediately... For instance, in the following episode, when looking for ways to beat the invincible duo, the protagonists never brought up the Time Ring and how Black relied on it for protection from any time changes...

Even though it was indeed said that the Time Ring had protected Black from whatever effect Present Zamasu's destruction might have had on him.