Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
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Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
And they cause the fights to drag on longer than necessary, without using too much effort on the writer's part.
I specifically say most transformations since there are a few exceptions. Noticably, those that have significant downsides.
Look at how organic the fight between Nappa/Vegeta vs Earth flows. It's exciting, back and forth and feels natural. Yes, there are the Oozaru transformations but they don't come out of nowhere and even more importantly, they have significant downsides, namely the tails.
You can see Kaioken as a transformation as well but that one has the downside to wreck the user's body, which it effectively does.
Flash forward and we have Freeza, which is probably the worst offender of this trope.
The fight between Vegeta/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
The fight between Piccolo/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
Heck you can include Golden Freeza here as well.
Cell repeats the exact same trope and Buu is even worse.
It seems like every time the heroes have a clear advantage the villain suddenly has another power up/transformation to trump then.
It makes the fights seem lazy and unfair from a writing/reading perspective. Whenever you're stuck, just add a random power up to create artificial tension instead of using clever writing or tactics.
I specifically say most transformations since there are a few exceptions. Noticably, those that have significant downsides.
Look at how organic the fight between Nappa/Vegeta vs Earth flows. It's exciting, back and forth and feels natural. Yes, there are the Oozaru transformations but they don't come out of nowhere and even more importantly, they have significant downsides, namely the tails.
You can see Kaioken as a transformation as well but that one has the downside to wreck the user's body, which it effectively does.
Flash forward and we have Freeza, which is probably the worst offender of this trope.
The fight between Vegeta/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
The fight between Piccolo/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
Heck you can include Golden Freeza here as well.
Cell repeats the exact same trope and Buu is even worse.
It seems like every time the heroes have a clear advantage the villain suddenly has another power up/transformation to trump then.
It makes the fights seem lazy and unfair from a writing/reading perspective. Whenever you're stuck, just add a random power up to create artificial tension instead of using clever writing or tactics.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
It took you THIS LONG to figure that out huh?
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
I have no inherent qualm with the trope It's overused, though.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
...is there something wrong with this?
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
I can’t believe a villain becoming more powerful is a useful storytelling technique to heighten the tension!!!!! Whaaaat?
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Even then there's at least some build up to Freeza and Cell's transformations, Zarbon warns Vegeta that Freeza can transform and that was before the Ginyu Force showed and on top of that Freeza himself says to the heroes that he can transform up to 3 times. Then of course we have Cell explaining his purpose to Piccolo in the Android Arc.
Boo was the only one who's changes were pretty random though most of them were executed well enough.
Boo was the only one who's changes were pretty random though most of them were executed well enough.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Can you give examples of coming out of nowhere?
Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Far be it for me to defend a rich asshole but perhaps the weekly comic release format is inhumane and that inhumanity leads to a lack of creativity because its hard to be creative when you're not sleeping or living a life.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
And of course you bring this back to politics.
Or just maybe it's not due to inhumane treatment and just I dunno, if a story goes long enough, it's bound to repeat itself.
Or just maybe it's not due to inhumane treatment and just I dunno, if a story goes long enough, it's bound to repeat itself.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Anyone who has ever experienced being stuck in a job they hate and being unable to feel relaxed because of their job should, in fact, understand the pain of sleeping four hours a day for ten years while physically laboring 12-20 hours the rest of the day.
The weekly scheduling has literally broken and killed people but fuck them, I guess.
The weekly scheduling has literally broken and killed people but fuck them, I guess.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Funny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:13 pm I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
Its hectic for sure but it's not like Mangaka aren't aware of what they sign up for, well some aren't I guess but still.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:14 pm I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Hell, I'm to tired to write a book I have half-way outlined because I work so damn much. Being creative is hard and having to do so under unrealistic conditions like "sleep four hours a day because deadline, deadline, deadline!" Is fucked. Can you imagine the chronic back, arm, wrist, and ass pain Toriyama developed over the years? The mental health issues? Fucked. All of it.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Good point. Yep, that plus the switching up of villains (from 19 & 20 to 16, 17, 18 to Cell) and the constant shifting of Z Warriors who might defeat Cell (I think).goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Funny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
I am so sorry if I offend you by saying this but what a crock of shit. I wish you are never under the sort of pressure mangaka are.goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pmFunny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:13 pm I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
Its hectic for sure but it's not like Mangaka aren't aware of what they sign up for, well some aren't I guess but still.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:14 pm I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
It's 6 years into the same story. It was long in the tooth. How many long running series don't eventually run into a brick wall? DB had done almost everything you could do. Regardless of the schedule, anyone's going to run out of ideas eventually.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight
Sure, but that doesn't mean the schedule didn't contribute to his fatigue. That's just human. The two things (long-running story and intense, hectic schedule) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.ABED wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:46 pmIt's 6 years into the same story. It was long in the tooth. How many long running series don't eventually run into a brick wall? DB had done almost everything you could do. Regardless of the schedule, anyone's going to run out of ideas eventually.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.