Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I agree there has to be some improvement of his spirit in Yadrat, not much in my opinion.
Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.
Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
20?DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pmEven if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:30 pmVegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
20%. Whoops.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm20?DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pmEven if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:30 pmVegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I guess 20% is fine. I personally have him at 170 million.DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:49 pm20%. Whoops.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm20?DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm
Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Of course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.
We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
True, we don't know if Goku did exactly what Trunks did, and although that isn't how Goku does things, it is possible because Freeza will destroy the planet if he can't win and he has company.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 amOf course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.
We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
But considering Freeza brought daddy to fight together(even though he believes he can take him on his own), I don't see how they wouldn't jump Goku together, or let Goku have an "easy" time.
Also, we don't know how far from his FP Freeza is. I don't think he could still bulk up like in Namek (his patches would fly away I guess?)
About the bolded part, the zenkai boosts were still a thing, and Goku took a hell of a beating in Namek, so a zenkai boost was indeed deserved. The last significant zenkai boost I think.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Freeza was 120 million on Namek.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 amOf course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.
We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.DanielSSJ wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
In regards to Freeza and Goku.
Goku said he spent most of his time mastering Shunkan Ido and Super Saiyan. I only put him marginally stronger than on Namek.
Freeza isn't even sure he can beat Goku by himself so that says it all about his power gain.
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”
Goku said he spent most of his time mastering Shunkan Ido and Super Saiyan. I only put him marginally stronger than on Namek.
Freeza isn't even sure he can beat Goku by himself so that says it all about his power gain.
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Gt base Goku>>>ssj3 Buu saga Goku*SoulSurj wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:40 pmThere wasn't a direct statement. I calculated their multipliers when I compared the two to Baby Vegeta and found that they were about the same distance from Goku's base forms.
(Buu arc) Base Goku
Ssj 3 Buu Arc Goku= (GT) Base Goku
Ssj 3 (GT) Goku< Ssj Baby Vegeta
Ssj Baby Vegeta<= Super Vegito
Super Vegito> 160,000× (Buu arc) Base Goku
Super Baby 1= 2× Ssj Baby Vegeta
Super Baby 2 (4× Super Baby 1)= GO Goku
Golden Oozaru Goku> 3,200× (GT) Base Goku
GO Baby Vegeta/Ssj 4 Goku= 10× Super Baby 2
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Same lol Frieza just a cocky foolZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pmPeople have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:08 pm Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.
That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?
We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Yeah, Freeza at the time didn't know how to sense energy so he wouldn't know exactly how strong Goku was.Mr Perfect Cell wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pmSame lol Frieza just a cocky foolZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pmPeople have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:08 pm Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.
That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?
We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
You're a cocky fool.
Ki sensing isn't the only way to gauge someone's strength. Freeza could estimate not only how strong Goku was, but also how much power he was holding back just by fighting him.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:38 pm Yeah, Freeza at the time didn't know how to sense energy so he wouldn't know exactly how strong Goku was.
Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”
Knowing how strong someone is by fighting them is a pretty simple trick literally everyone in the series knows. Not to mention he and Goku were already fighting to a standstill back on Namek. It doesn't take a Ki senser to know any minimal power up would make him stronger than Goku.
Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?LightBing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:42 am Freeza isn't even sure he can beat Goku by himself so that says it all about his power gain.
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Narratively wise, I don't think it matters.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.
If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I think you got your less than/greater than signs mixed up.LightBing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:54 amNarratively wise, I don't think it matters.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.
If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
You mean Androids > Trunks > Goku > Freeza?LightBing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:54 amNarratively wise, I don't think it matters.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.
If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Made a mistake it's the other way around.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.
I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.
Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.
So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?
I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.
Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.
So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?
I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
My theory is that he still gained durability but slumped in the others stats, if memory serves me he still took a bit of a beating.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.
I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.
Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.
So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?
I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Yeah, he did. I don't want to forget it's a gag character, but the beating he took did not defuse him, while Gotenks got immediately defused against Hirudegan in the following movie. Implying that, at least for Toei, you can get defused if hit strongly enough.LightBing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:10 pmMy theory is that he still gained durability but slumped in the others stats, if memory serves me he still took a bit of a beating.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.
I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.
Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.
So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?
I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I remember from Gotenks that his fat form got some hype and people didn't notice he was a fluke until he started running. So I think the fat fusion is at least stronger than base fusers and the skinny fusion.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.
I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.
Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.
So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?
I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
Since I take Gotenks' surviving against Majin Boo as evidence for him being above SSJ2 tier, I guess it goes the same would apply to Veku. He's probably not quite SSJ3 level since he's still a failed fusion. Maybe Veku vs Fat Boo would be interesting.