Making a Good DB Story v. Making a Good Story

[JulieYBM]

In the general threat for the DBS comic someone (doesn't matter who, this is not a call-out post) brought up that the 'writers' (generalized term for Tomioka Atsuhiro and the others, I suppose?) don't understand Gokuu because they wrote him as using the power of friendship in the last two episodes. I don't necessarily think Gokuu preached about the subject, simply having a natural reaction to someone's friends being attacked.

The point of conversation I would like to make is that I think this gets at storytelling philosophy: do you make Dragon Ball Super 'a good Dragon Ball story' or do you make it 'a good story'? What is either one of those things? Why should making a good DB story be a priority over making a good story if the former means ignoring common human conventions like 'friendship' or 'family'? One artist is free to make art of their own (Toriyama) but why should that dictate what other artists create?

[jjgp1112]

Every series has certain beats and themes that they're steeped in, especially a long running show like Dragon Ball that is largely from the mind of one man. Telling a good story is important but when it becomes incongruous to the characters, the shows modus operandi and what most of the fan base gives a crap about, the question becomes is this story even good given all the context and framework it doesn't even fit in?

When I go to Waffle House, I'm looking for some sloppy ass food that will make me question my life choices, aloof and outright hostile customer service, and a failing health inspection score. If I wanted something different, I wouldn't be in a Waffle House, would I?

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

If Dragon Ball has any life after Toriyama, I'd be interested in seeing some different storytelling conventions possibly.

At the same time, would I? Super plays it safe, but that's a large part if it's appeal. When properties stray too far off from what made them popular in the first place (ie. Star Wars The Last Jedi), it can lead some fans to feeling as thought it's a betrayal of the property. Like turning Luke Skywalker into a nihilist versus an optimist. Granted, I think there were more narrative problems with that movie than just breaking some conventions. I never took issue with the "friendship" angle with Goku in Super; in fact I appreciated those last few episodes for how "Dragon Ball" they felt to me. I guess I go to Dragon Ball for very specific feelings (ultimately, to feel good, warm and fuzzy inside, whether through the action or the smaller moments).

So, short answer, I'll take a "good Dragon Ball story" over a good/great story in general for this franchise. Like jjgp1112 said, I go to Dragon Ball for a specific feeling. If I want something totally different, I'd rather look elsewhere at another series.

[JulieYBM]

Re The Last Jedi: I think Luke's arc is good, it just isn't supported by the surrounding material because the sequels are ultimately extremely reverent of the original trilogy or the idea of what the original trilogy was. What made The Wrath of Kahn and The Undiscovered Country good films was Nicholas Meyer's attitude of "Bah, fuck TOS" and those films' relative agreeing to lean into that attitude. Also, Finn and Rose are the best characters and are ultimately tossed aside by racist Disney assholery.

Toriyama isn't the only creator to be or who will be involved in the creation of Dragon Ball. The trademarks of other writers and directors are all visible on the series, even while constrained by the constraints of capitalism and Toriyama's own personal oversight. I think to expect your Nagamines, your Tomiokas, your Ooishis and your Toyo-tarous to mechanically reproduce Toriyama's every witting word is not feasible or respectful to them. It's like saying "Toriyama would never write a strategy like Tomioka did in Super #123 and therefore it should not be included" despite Gokuu's strategy being a brilliant spot in the fights of that arc.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Re The Last Jedi: I think Luke's arc is good, it just isn't supported by the surrounding material because the sequels are ultimately extremely reverent of the original trilogy or the idea of what the original trilogy was. What made The Wrath of Kahn and The Undiscovered Country good films was Nicholas Meyer's attitude of "Bah, fuck TOS" and those films' relative agreeing to lean into that attitude. Also, Finn and Rose are the best characters and are ultimately tossed aside by racist Disney assholery.

I think Luke's arc OK when you separate the character from his prior legacy; it's just also the polar opposite of what drew me to the character/Star Wars to begin with. I do think that if Rise of Skywalker had went with the original Duel of the Fates direction, it maybe would have turned out better. And the ball was really dropped with Finn and Rose in these movies, definitely.

Interesting point about Wrath of Khan. I haven't watched much Star Trek, but I finally watched this film a few weeks ago. If a Dragon Ball film would be a bit of a shake-up while still holding true to the aspects I love most about the series, I might welcome that.

[ABED]

I think Luke's arc is well within his character. He was a good man but fallible. Certainly better than how he was used in The Mandalorian where it's pure fanservice. It is NOT The Last Jedi that took Star Wars off the rails. One of the things I love most about the movie is that it has some of the most interesting ideas in all of Star Wars, one of which is anyone can be the hero, it doesn't have to be someone "special".

Good storytelling is about catharsis. All the "rules" are ultimately towards that end. What makes a good DB story just and application of that idea, but in the context of DB which comes with characters, their psychologies, goals, etc. So an otherwise good story might not be a good fit for DB because it doesn't fit the characters. If it doesn't fit the characters, then it's not a good story.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't have any problem with those scenes from ep. 130-131. Just because it's not what *Toriyama* would have wanted doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, and just because Toriyama is the original author doesn't mean only he gets to dictate the themes and messages of the story. Toriyama gave Toei creative freedom to do whatever they want using his plot points as basis, so Toei had the right to do... whatever they wanted. And seeing how many people loved and cried when they watched those final 2 episodes, Toei objectively succeeded in their goal (the goal of any writer, to make the reader feel engaged in the story).

My only problem when it comes to these "Power of Love and Friendship" storylines was in ep. 66 and it has to do with the power-scaling, because it's stupid that Trunks with the energy of 30 civilians can bisect Fused Zamasu when Goku with the energy from the entire universe couldn't even push back Kid Buu. That was some Fairy Tail-level of shit, although the message in itself was fine.

[ABED]

Goku had trouble against Kid Buu because he was exhausted, not because the power of the universal Genki Dama wasn't enough.

And where did you get the idea that authors don't get to choose their themes?

[SupremeKai25]

Goku had trouble against Kid Buu because he was exhausted, not because the power of the universal Genki Dama wasn't enough.

And Trunks wasn't exhausted after getting his shit kicked in by Black and then Fused Zamasu for 3 episodes straight?

[ABED]

Goku had trouble against Kid Buu because he was exhausted, not because the power of the universal Genki Dama wasn't enough.

And Trunks wasn't exhausted after getting his shit kicked in by Black and then Fused Zamasu for 3 episodes straight?

Your issue isn't the inconsistency, it's that he defeated Zamasu.

[PurestEvil]

Goku had trouble against Kid Buu because he was exhausted, not because the power of the universal Genki Dama wasn't enough.

And Trunks wasn't exhausted after getting his shit kicked in by Black and then Fused Zamasu for 3 episodes straight?

Goku's problem wasn't gathering the power of the Genki Dama; that does not require physical work. He just couldn't push it against Buu when Buu pushed back.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku had trouble against Kid Buu because he was exhausted, not because the power of the universal Genki Dama wasn't enough.

And Trunks wasn't exhausted after getting his shit kicked in by Black and then Fused Zamasu for 3 episodes straight?

Your issue isn't the inconsistency, it's that he defeated Zamasu.

He didn't defeat Zamasu though (unfortunately for a lot of Trunks fanboys, episode 67 exists ), it's exactly the inconsistency

For instance, if you had asked me if there was any way I would have liked that scene, I would have pointed you to the Xenoverse 2 version, where Trunks got energy from the entire Space-time continuum (including his younger self and his GT self), by using the Time rift that Black opened earlier.

And as I told you I don't even dislike the message at the core, it's not anything brilliant but it's not too bad either, the main issue is the power-scaling inconsistency.

Whereas at least the ToP arc didn't make it too unrealistic when it had Goku get a final power-up vs. Jiren by listening to his friends.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think reacting to your friends being attacked is out of character for Goku, nor a PA-WA of FURENSHIPU display. It's not like he hates his friends, besides, didn't he go bananas, too, in Namek, after his friends were constantly being messed with, fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy? using Goku's friends as a trigger for a power up was a Toriyama idea after all.

I'd say DBS is a flawed good DB story, even if it takes some liberties or leans towards a certain concept for a cathartic final round.

[Yuji]

I think there's a place to write the characters in a different way than they have been characterized so far, but that progression needs to feel believable. What a lot of writers fail to do when they pick-up someone else's series is precisely that, they do not take the time to understand the characters and then shape them in the way they want to; instead, they take the shortcut and just mold the characters to the whim of the story they're trying to tell, which is very off-putting to a lot of fans because it shows remarkable narcissism and a lack of respect for someone else's craft. This is why stories like The Last Jedi, which are conceptually interesting, fall flat on their faces.

You can write any story as you wish, I truly believe that, but I also think that handling someone else's story warrants a certain degree of respect for the original author.

[super michael]

Making a good Dragon Ball story is more important, since that is what separates Dragon Ball from other anime. However whatever flaws Dragon Ball has they can improve on it to make it better.

Here is an example Banjo-Kazooie Nuts & Bolt might be a good game, but that isn't what fans wanted in a sequel, especially since we know it was going to be Banjo-Threeie. So Nuts & Bolt failed.

GT was inferior compared to DB/DBZ. What DBS should have done was learn their mistakes from GT/DBZ/DB, but instead they made the flaws worse.

Characters flaws exaggerated, characters too annoying and characters being worse than ever. Goku the main character intelligence is pathetic.

Of course things like Goku putting a good fight before the safety of the world/universe is within character, so there is nothing wrong there since that is in character. However things like the Monaka costume and forgetting the Senzu Bean, urn and talisman was bad. Goku dropping his guard that he can't react and being upset with C17 for attacking amateur girls while wide open was really bad. They are OOC.

Goku being a pest to Bulma and Whis was horrible. That was OOC.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I think Luke's arc is well within his character. He was a good man but fallible. Certainly better than how he was used in The Mandalorian where it's pure fanservice. It is NOT The Last Jedi that took Star Wars off the rails. One of the things I love most about the movie is that it has some of the most interesting ideas in all of Star Wars, one of which is anyone can be the hero, it doesn't have to be someone "special".

Good storytelling is about catharsis. All the "rules" are ultimately towards that end. What makes a good DB story just and application of that idea, but in the context of DB which comes with characters, their psychologies, goals, etc. So an otherwise good story might not be a good fit for DB because it doesn't fit the characters. If it doesn't fit the characters, then it's not a good story.

I don't necessarily see fanservice as a negative if it makes sense for the story. In Mandalorian, it made sense for Luke to be the Jedi in that moment. I agree with your point about the hero not having to be something special, I actually like that...and then Rise of Skywalker came along.

I do agree with the point that Dragon Ball needs to fit the characters. Ultimately, for all the things one can day about GT or Super, I've never felt like anyone was truly written fully out-of-character.
Maybe with certain traits exaggerated, but not completely off base.

[Yuji]

The problem with Goku's speech during the Tournament of Power isn't that it's out of character - certainly Goku cares about his friends and family, and he's also certainly no hero of justice. The problem is that it's not a realization or a moralizing speech that comes from believable character introspection. It's very hamfisted, it's a monologue that any fan would use as a descriptor of Goku's character but not something you can necessarily see Goku himself say.

That's why it's so jarring. Because Goku is someone who lets his actions speak louder than words and his rare moralizing speeches as an adult come very believably as a result of the situation. Goku saying "I'm not a hero of justice" just comes as a weird non sequitur, since nobody put that into question in the arc ever (even though they likely should have, considering how the anime lays much of the blame for the ToP's existence on Goku himself at the start of the arc). The thing is that there were all the pieces there to have some interesting character drama between Jiren's authoritarian ideals of justice and Goku's egoist life philosophy, but they never really play with them until that very episode.

Ultimately it's an example of an external writer misunderstanding Toriyama's style and Dragon Ball's "show, don't tell" philosophy. That scene wouldn't be out of place in a Naruto or a One Piece, but in Dragon Ball you just expected Goku to punch him in the face immediately, not to explain to the audience why he's not Superman.

[WittyUsername]

‘The power of friendship’ seems to be a common theme in shonen manga/anime in general. I wouldn’t say it’s out of character for Goku, but it does come out of nowhere in the context of the tournament. It seems like it was there mainly to hammer home how different Goku and Jiren are. Goku has friends that he cares about and fights for, while Jiren is a loner who believes that he can only depend on his own power. Of course, Jiren’s whole philosophy is about as stock as it gets for a brooding anime rival.

[Yuli Ban]

Not only is Goku's speech about his family and friends out of character for him, it's out of character for Dragon Ball as a whole.
Despite its prevalence in the totality of shonen anime, the power of friendship has almost NEVER been a factor in Dragon Ball, with the series sometimes even mocking the concept by making these friends unreliable, catty, and sometimes wonder why they're friends with each other at all.

Friendship is a thing, and the bonds made are strong, but those bonds have NEVER been the cause of someone's victory or their character motivation. You know, just like in real life. My friends can motivate me, but there is no magical, childish "power of friendship" that literally gives me life energy.

And no, genki as used in the Genki Dama is NOT that. It's a different concept entirely.

Dragon Ball throughout its history has never delved into cheesy, pandering "real superpower of teamwork" writing... right up until the Tournament of Power, where it's suddenly the main message of the fight between Jiren and Goku because the writers couldn't think to give Jiren any other notable traits. Not that we knew much about them anyway, but it's odd that the Pride Troopers weren't friends or made inroads into that field. It just leaves more questions than anything, and yes, it's a deeply unsatisfying story.

A "good" Dragon Ball story has been established from the beginning when it set out to be a kung fu story. Following the beats of kung fu/martial arts fantasy is basically how it has always worked. You could certainly tell a more gripping drama using these characters, but it would be like that postmodernist dramatic Flintstones comic that came out a few years back— good luck getting more than a fraction of the audience to take it seriously. Even if it's really high quality, there's going to be that fundamental clash: "this may be a good story, but is this really a DRAGON BALL story?" And for a massive chunk of people, it's not going to fly.

That's not to say it's impossible to tell a different type of story in this verse, but you can't do it with Dragon Ball without it feeling wholly unfitting. Heck, this is even why I've been turned off to the concept of a slice of life Dragon Ball story. As much as I love the character interactions and histories, ultimately it's driven by the conflicts and fighting because Dragon Ball is, again, a martial arts fantasy story. Take away that, and you take away what makes Dragon Ball "Dragon Ball." Even if you knock it out of the park with fanservicey character moments galore, without the punchy kicky action, what's actually being shown would be completely missing the point of Dragon Ball. If you want a slice of life Dragon Ball, frame it through different stories, like Dr. Slump or Neko Majin Z featuring Dragon Ball characters.

This is what hits the heart of the difference between a good story vs. a good DB story— standards are simply different. The fundamentals are the same, but I'm not looking to DB to get my fix of William Faulkner-style literary fiction.

[PurestEvil]

Goku’s monologue to jiren was NOT about “the power of friendship” at all. It was only about how Goku cares about his friends, not how he fights for them. Sure, it may have made Goku get put on a high horse over Jiren, but tell me how TF did he react to Krillin dying twice, seeing his other friends’ corpses before Nappa, and hearing about how Zamasu killed his family.