Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

It's pretty crazy, but it is what it is. It's definitely intentional since Base Goku is shown battling Beerus after U6 Tournament and Base Copy Vegeta was able to easily demolish SSJ3 Gotenks. However, some have argued that the "god-like" base level was overridden later on in the series.

Present Zamasu did pretty well against SS2 Goku (Despite losing) and that led Goku to believe that Zamasu might one day surpass Beerus if he keeps training, so based on what Toei established in BoG, Goku had to have retained God power in his Base and SS forms... otherwise he wouldn't think that fighting his SS2 is special.

Of course that also got retconned probably, but because Beerus is a moving goalpost

[Koitsukai]

Toei was definitely pushing the outstanding base form levels, but Toriyama and Toyo weren't. Hence the filler episodes being base Vegeta's power > Gotenks, Goku fighting Buu in his base form and such, but when the official arcs hit, SS Trunks, base Cabba and so many others were on par with the saiyans like there was nothing special with their base or SS forms.
Prior to the ToP, a powered-up Roshi fights base Goku, to add even more confusion, implying Toei was also moving away from their initial intent.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the.... not happy but more slightly unenthused but inoffensive medium between the 2 camps is that Goku and Vegeta and demonstrable peer opponents have stronger base and Super Saiyan forms (enough so that they aren't rendered entirely meaningless against SSG-level and beyond), but not specifically as strong as SSG.

You gotta account for the fact that Freeza got a lot stronger in his own base form, and yet base and Super Saiyan forms are competitive with him still even in both mediums.

And he's acknowledged Majin Buu as a cornerstone that Goku defeated. So at the very least, I think you gotta place him around that level to comfortably make his gains significant in the grand scheme of things. In essence, you'd have Goku, Vegeta, etc., being around the level of Vegito from the original pre-Super era where their base forms are comparable to Majin Buu and their Super Saiyan forms enhance them much further and putting them close to but not quite at SSG.

I mean, people still sometimes debate about if Vegito was really that much weaker than SSG, and this is a good compromise. Even in SS2 and SS3, not as strong as SSG, but close.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The way I see it, in Resurrection F, the promotional material and manga, it seems a given that Base Goku and Vegeta were as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base hence this Saiyan Beyond God thing and them turning into a Super Saiyan afterwards just makes them Blue instead.

The anime just appeared to follow what the movies did in that regard then.

However Toriyama appears to have gone back on this entirely, probably so things weren't so escalated for a long running series and decided that Goku and Vegeta would be largely the same level they were at during the Buu saga and Super Saiyan God would continue to be its own separate transformation so it could continue to be used.

But of course the anime still had to portray the same fights.

So as far as Toriyama is concerned and how the manga seems to do it characters like Cabba, Frost and Magetta are likely weaker than Cell but the anime confuses it because of how strong Base Goku is meant to be because that's what the movies portrayed.

[Koitsukai]

The way I see it, in Resurrection F, the promotional material and manga, it seems a given that Base Goku and Vegeta were as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base hence this Saiyan Beyond God thing and them turning into a Super Saiyan afterwards just makes them Blue instead.

The anime just appeared to follow what the movies did in that regard then.

However Toriyama appears to have gone back on this entirely, probably so things weren't so escalated for a long running series and decided that Goku and Vegeta would be largely the same level they were at during the Buu saga and Super Saiyan God would continue to be its own separate transformation so it could continue to be used.

But of course the anime still had to portray the same fights.

So as far as Toriyama is concerned and how the manga seems to do it characters like Cabba, Frost and Magetta are likely weaker than Cell but the anime confuses it because of how strong Base Goku is meant to be because that's what the movies portrayed.

That is the case, yes. Toei probably thought Toriyama was not going to pedal back on what he wrote for RoF, so they went to town with it and hit an unexpected wall in the U6 arc.

If the manga had followed Toei's direction, by now Goku's base would be stronger than BoG Beerus or something like that.
The big gains for the manga came in the last two arcs, probably now being more in tune with what Toei had in mind.

[Goku9001]

Present Zamasu did pretty well against SS2 Goku (Despite losing) and that led Goku to believe that Zamasu might one day surpass Beerus if he keeps training, so based on what Toei established in BoG, Goku had to have retained God power in his Base and SS forms... otherwise he wouldn't think that fighting his SS2 is special.

Of course that also got retconned probably, but because Beerus is a moving goalpost

This is also true. Goku was established to be GoD level at that moment and could one day surpass Beerus if he wasn't careful.

[ZombieVito]

What SSG from RoF?

In any case, Super Saiyan Goku who fought Beerus was said to have Super Saiyan God power and that he absorbed that power for himself.

I don't recall it ever being said it was a one off or that anything changed since then.

So is the Super Saiyan Goku who fought Frost at that level? Therefore Super Saiyan Vegeta would have to be which would also mean characters like Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta would be as strong as God too.

I don't get how it works especially as Super Saiyan God came back during ToP when he was meant to have absorbed the power and there was no need to transform.

SSG didn't cease to exist in RoF. It's still there, they just never used it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Goku absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into his Super Saiyan form during his fight with Beerus then how is he still able to become a Super Saiyan God and what benefit does it give him?

That's because a form and it's power aren't the same thing. Just like a SSJ from the Freeza Saga is worlds weaker than one from the Boo Saga, so is BoGs SSJG Goku now to current SSJG Goku. As Goku's time with SSJG faded he had to make it's power his own to keep up with Beerus. He wasn't able to transform again until he learned how to on his own, and it gives him a boost in power like any other form.

[Yuji]

It's pretty asinine to consider Goku is able to stack Super Saiyan God on top of a form already as strong as himself as a Super Saiyan God. He would gain a ridiculous power boost upon transforming a second time into SSG for no reason and I very much doubt that was either Toriyama's or Toei's intention.

It seemed the original intention was that SSG had been absorbed into ALL forms, and that turning SS/SS2/SS3 would grant absolutely no power boost, or at least a very miniscule one. The boost would come from SSB instead.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah it seems weird that he'd become Super Saiyan God, absorb that power into his Super Saiyan and then seemingly his Base form and then he'd be able to become Super Saiyan God again in addition to that.

All it seemed like that is he made that power his own in his Base form and when he turned Super Saiyan he just had blue hair now instead of blonde.

But then Toriyama did work on the U6 arc and decided probably not to have that be a thing anymore because it means

1. They'd never be able to use the classic Super Saiyan forms or Super Saiyan God ever again.

2. Goku and Vegeta would be so powerful that it'd make it too difficult to find new characters to be a challenge for them.

But Toei seemingly wasn't told this and just got on with adapting the movies and it screwed them.

[SupremeKai25]

It's pretty asinine to consider Goku is able to stack Super Saiyan God on top of a form already as strong as himself as a Super Saiyan God. He would gain a ridiculous power boost upon transforming a second time into SSG for no reason and I very much doubt that was either Toriyama's or Toei's intention.

It seemed the original intention was that SSG had been absorbed into ALL forms, and that turning SS/SS2/SS3 would grant absolutely no power boost, or at least a very miniscule one. The boost would come from SSB instead.

It's not asinine dude it's exactly what the show said, you can't call people "asinine" for stating the Authorial Canon verbatim:



Now unless you want to tell me SS2 was always = to SSG (in which case I ask you why he didn't squash Buu like a bug), then it is stated verbatim that Goku absorbed the power of God in his lower forms, boosting them and making them equal to SSG. And naturally this also means that anyone who fought Goku (a serious Goku) in his normal SS forms could also be scaled to God tier.

That this later got retconned (seemingly) doesn't change the fact that this scene happened.

[Yuji]

Nobody's saying it didn't happen. I'm saying it's asinine to consider that Goku would still be able to turn SSG and get a huge power boost from it afterwards. Goku conveniently started to use SSG again after they retconned the God tier base thing.

[Xeno Goku Black]

And naturally this also means that anyone who fought Goku (a serious Goku) in his normal SS forms could also be scaled to God tier.

And that's where it becomes a mess. Trunks was a match for a Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Now how could he possibly be over twice as strong as the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus?

He has nobody to train with or any special equipment like the Gravity Room.

The manga showed him as being above Dabura somewhat and he was mentioned as being stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games.

That's where he should be. Goku as a Super Saiyan also matched Super Saiyan Gohan who hadn't even been training.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's several factors to consider. I think the matter of Freeza is an important one, as both mediums depict him as immensely strong in his base form, yet base Goku is considered comparable in his own base and Super Saiyan forms.

We know he trained a lot, it's the whole point of RoF. Question is, by how much now?

He has to be stronger than before in his regular state, but now it can't be to god-like levels either just like Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

And naturally this also means that anyone who fought Goku (a serious Goku) in his normal SS forms could also be scaled to God tier.

And that's where it becomes a mess. Trunks was a match for a Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Now how could he possibly be over twice as strong as the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus?

He has nobody to train with or any special equipment like the Gravity Room.

The manga showed him as being above Dabura somewhat and he was mentioned as being stronger than Gohan at the Cell Games.

That's where he should be. Goku as a Super Saiyan also matched Super Saiyan Gohan who hadn't even been training.

Your position comes from disbelief, which in itself isn't an argument.

Yes, it's hard to believe that people who matched SS/SS2 Goku could be God tier, but if this is what we are told then so be it.

Evidence: SS2 Goku vs. Present Zamasu

Present Zamasu lost, but Gowasu first of all mentions this about SS2 Goku:



You can make the argument that Gowasu was smoking something to think that, too bad that later on we have Goku himself saying that fighting Zamasu reminded him of whatever % Beerus was using in BoG, putting Present Zamasu at a level that is relative to BoG Beerus:



Then immediately after Goku says this:




So as per character verbatim, the fight with Present Zamasu reminded Goku of his fight with Beerus. Beerus gets salty and tells Goku that Zamasu cannot be compared to him, and Goku replies by saying that Zamasu's still got a lot of potential and can surpass him [Beerus] if he keeps training. None of this would be possible if that line about SS2 Goku retaining God power wasn't present in BoG arc.

So in short the Canonical scaling is as follows:

"God" SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu > [or relative to] BoG Beerus [whatever % he was using] > SSG Goku

You say this was also the case for Trunks, you find it hard to believe, but based on writing statements verbatim from the BoG fight, it was. There's no way around this but by retconning it.

And this was the second to last arc before Super went on hiatus, furthermore as far as I know there's nothing in the ToP arc that contradicts this and we don't know how Toei will write the Moro and Granolah arcs. In the ToP you even have Kefla pressuring Omen Ultra Instinct Goku, which means that the fusées had to have been super strong for the fusion to do that.

[Xeno Goku Black]

That's just you trying to massively bolster up Zamasu though because you're a particular fan of the character.

That's a bad sub and Gowasu's comment was based upon him knowing that he fought with Beerus. Beerus soon corrected him and we know his power didn't rival a God of Destructions anyway, he wasn't even remotely close even as Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken X10.

Goku's feeling was also based on Zamasu being a God like Beerus. He'd already fought stronger in Frieza and Hit.

[SupremeKai25]

That's just you trying to massively bolster up Zamasu though because you're a particular fan of the character.

That's a bad sub and Gowasu's comment was based upon him knowing that he fought with Beerus. Beerus soon corrected him and we know his power didn't rival a God of Destructions anyway, he wasn't even remotely close even as Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken X10.

Goku's feeling was also based on Zamasu being a God like Beerus. He'd already fought stronger in Frieza and Hit.

Thanks for belittling me and not even pinging me I guess.

Anyway I reiterated several times that I am referring to the Beerus Goku fought in BoG, so a Beerus who was holding back massively. Of course I don't think he's as strong as full power Beerus who remains unsurpassed as of the Granolah arc

Both Frieza and Hit would also force Beerus to go beyond whatever % he was using in BoG.

And that is enough to be considered God tier, since these are levels astronomically above anything and anyone from Z.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Goku assessment of Zamas strength is not as clear cut as that, since not only his SS2 isn’t as strong as his SSG was back then, but Zamas himself isn’t even as strong as his current SS2. The Beerus that Goku fought is still stronger than SSG.

I think what Goku is implying is that fighting Zamas feels like fighting a god, not necessarily from strength standpoint. And he recognized his potential precisely because he is still not that strong.

It’s like Zamas is still climbing the ladder, with SS2 Trunks being still ahead of him, then there is Goku Black and then there is SS2 Goku. At the end, there is Merged Zamas, which is probably what Goku had envisioned in this moment.

[SupremeKai25]

Normal Super Saiyan forms are just that strong in Super according to Toei, there's also Kefla who in Super Saiyan 2 can challenge literal Ultra Instinct. I don't know why people think Super Saiyan forms are still Z level, maybe in the manga, but in the anime definitely not.

since not only his SS2 isn’t as strong as his SSG was back then

Is there proof for this? Did anyone ever remark that the "God power in Base and SS forms" was just a temporary condition?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Goku wouldn't compare Zamasu to the Beerus who fought his Super Saiyan because he knows he's still stronger than him as a Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla matching Ultra Instinct Sign Goku isn't much of an indicator of things either as Base Gogeta was above Super Saiyan Blue level himself. That just speaks for the strength of fusion.

Aside from that in the Golden Frieza saga it would be Base Goku who had the power of a God. It wouldn't even be as a Super Saiyan and when he fought Zamasu and transformed, Zamasu said his power increase tens of times over.

So is Super Saiyan 2 Goku at that point dozens of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus?