Making a Good DB Story v. Making a Good Story

[Cure Dragon 255]

He took acting seriously but not the movie. I love him but its not accurate to say he took it seriously.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

He took acting seriously but not the movie. I love him but its not accurate to say he took it seriously.

I'm not talking about the movie. Everyone involved thought the movie's premise was ridiculous. I'm talking about his performance. He took his performance seriously even when the younger actors were goofing off. Pretty sure Hamill or Ford have credited his seriousness for sometimes getting them back on track. There's a reason his role in it was so extensive.

[Cure Dragon 255]

THAT I very much agree with. Very true.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That's hilarious since it was Sir Alec Guinness who HATED the movie and thought it was a joke more than anyone else on set.

What Alec Guinness hated was that following the movie, people saw him only as Obi-Wan, despite all of his other legendary film performances. I mean, I'm sure he thought the dialogue he was reading was atrocious, but my point is he still was clearly taking it seriously. It's even more of a credit to him if he hated the material. The man was an class A professional. Even the other actors have commented on this over the years.

Alec Guinness also thought Star Wars was silly and childish. There was a stigma against fantasy storytelling in Hollywood at the time, but Star Wars proved that movies like that can resonate with people young and old. Toriyama is a huge Star Wars fan and included references to the series in not only Dragon Ball, but also Dr Slump and even made a parody manga in 1978 called Mysterious Rain Jack. Then there's Korin's Tower, which is clearly inspired by Cloud City, and the Rejuvenation Chambers on Namek work like Bacta Tanks. Dragon Ball owes a lot to Star Wars, which yes was a collaborative effort, but none of the collaborations would have been possible had George Lucas not thought of it originally regardless of how poor his original script was.

[JulieYBM]

Filmmaking is a collaboration. Even creating the Dragon Ball comic was a team job. In one way or another we owe Dragon Ball to more than just Toriyama. His assistants over the years, his editors, the publishing and printing team and more all contributed to the series release.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

That's hilarious since it was Sir Alec Guinness who HATED the movie and thought it was a joke more than anyone else on set.

What Alec Guinness hated was that following the movie, people saw him only as Obi-Wan, despite all of his other legendary film performances. I mean, I'm sure he thought the dialogue he was reading was atrocious, but my point is he still was clearly taking it seriously. It's even more of a credit to him if he hated the material. The man was an class A professional. Even the other actors have commented on this over the years.

Alec Guinness also thought Star Wars was silly and childish. There was a stigma against fantasy storytelling in Hollywood at the time, but Star Wars proved that movies like that can resonate with people young and old. Toriyama is a huge Star Wars fan and included references to the series in not only Dragon Ball, but also Dr Slump and even made a parody manga in 1978 called Mysterious Rain Jack. Then there's Korin's Tower, which is clearly inspired by Cloud City, and the Rejuvenation Chambers on Namek work like Bacta Tanks. Dragon Ball owes a lot to Star Wars, which yes was a collaborative effort, but none of the collaborations would have been possible had George Lucas not thought of it originally regardless of how poor his original script was.

I know, I said this about Alex Guinness above lol. I'm just saying the film still wouldn't have turned out well of he had phoned in his performance. And of course we agree on the last point. Every published piece of art comes down to be a collaboration, however big or small. But that doesn't mean the person attributes to creating it won't get most of the credit. That's how it always works, and Dragon Ball and Star Wars aren't exceptions.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

And again, my point is not that only Toriyama or only George Lucas deserves credit for Dragon Ball or Star Wars, respectively. And I'm an aspiring filmmaker myself, so I'm well aware it's a collaboration. But anyone who signs on to a project like this signs on knowing the person who came up with the idea, the person writing/illustrating a comic, or the person directing the film, is going to be the person mentioned or credited the most with any perceived success or failure. Any collaborators with Toriyama or George Lucas know this. Anyone who worked with Alfred Hitchcock knew this. Anyone who works on a Steven Spielberg-directed film knows this. Anyone who contributed to Dragon Ball along with Toriyama is well aware he's going to be the name associated most prominently with it, and they're fine with that.

[JulieYBM]

And again, my point is not that only Toriyama or only George Lucas deserves credit for Dragon Ball or Star Wars, respectively. And I'm an aspiring filmmaker myself, so I'm well aware it's a collaboration. But anyone who signs on to a project like this signs on knowing the person who came up with the idea, the person writing/illustrating a comic, or the person directing the film, is going to be the person mentioned or credited the most with any perceived success or failure. Any collaborators with Toriyama or George Lucas know this. Anyone who worked with Alfred Hitchcock knew this. Anyone who works on a Steven Spielberg-directed film knows this. Anyone who contributed to Dragon Ball along with Toriyama is well aware he's going to be the name associated most prominently with it, and they're fine with that.

Why do we have to just accept that? Especially when the various Dragon Ball cartoons have defining contributions from people other than Toriyama? Or how actors receive awards for their contributions to Spielberg films?

We should challenge the norms of the workplace and the arts. That's how we break down gates.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Why do we have to just accept that? Especially when the various Dragon Ball cartoons have defining contributions from people other than Toriyama? Or how actors receive awards for their contributions to Spielberg films?

We should challenge the norms of the workplace and the arts. That's how we break down gates.

You can challenge it if you want to, but that wasn't really what my point was about. And I still haven't seen any legitimate reasons as to why Toriyama shouldn't get credit for Dragon Ball. It's possible to give others their due credit without denying any to Toriyama.

[ABED]

No one is denying others have made important contributions but they aren't equal. Also, the central work was the manga which was primarily the work of an individual.

[BWri]

I don't think making a good DB story and a good story are mutually exclusive ideas. I think a good story in DB would indeed abide by the elements that are in DB's DNA. You have to be consistent with what's come before. If you want to try something new in the format, you can pretty much just do it. Toriyama-san has shown multiple times that DB is flexible. We went from Journey to the West to Star Wars to Terminator 2 and beyond.

If you want to build up to sappy ideas like nakama and the power of friendship, well, build up to it and tell that story within the frame of what DB is. DB is no stranger to embracing subversion and changing with the times to accommodate something new. And power of friendship isn't a hard concept to reach when Goku is already fond of his friends, relies on them in life or death situations, and uses their energy to do the Genki Dama. Maybe it just needs something of a build up so the reveal is more impactful.

I think new focuses could also fit quite well. It's just that Toriyama-san avoids them or outright hates them. Romance is a thing that would actually fit well in DB as marriage and family is a huge theme in the show. Romance was a huge part of the first arc, even though it was shallow but its very appealing.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I think new focuses could also fit quite well. It's just that Toriyama-san avoids them or outright hates them. Romance is a thing that would actually fit well in DB as marriage and family is a huge theme in the show. Romance was a huge part of the first arc, even though it was shallow but its very appealing.

For someone who avoids writing romance with any meaningful depth, I'd say Toriyama did shockingly well writing Gohan and Videl's relationship. Also, I'd ascribe the romance of the first arc being less about actual love, but moreso romance by this definition: a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement, and remoteness from everyday life. Although to your point, Bulma was looking for love, albeit in a shallow sense, as well as adventure.

[BWri]

For someone who avoids writing romance with any meaningful depth, I'd say Toriyama did shockingly well writing Gohan and Videl's relationship.

You know, shame on me for forgetting about their romance. Thinking back on it, I have to agree with you. What's funny is, for a guy that has no interest in romance, Toriyama-san sometimes gets incredibly soap-opera-esque with it when he wants to such as the will they/won't they with Bulma and Yamcha. It's nearly as complex as Ross/Rachel.

Also, I'd ascribe the romance of the first arc being less about actual love, but moreso romance by this definition: a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement, and remoteness from everyday life. Although to your point, Bulma was looking for love, albeit in a shallow sense, as well as adventure.

And that's why I think definition #1 of romance works well for an adventure story. It just adds that extra layer of fun and romantic mystery which enhances definition #2 (which you provided). It doesn't even have to be deep or meaningful as we've seen with James Bond, Indiana Jones, Dragon Ball season 1, etc. It's just an extra layer to get invested in.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

And that's why I think definition #1 of romance works well for an adventure story. It just adds that extra layer of fun and romantic mystery which enhances definition #2 (which you provided). It doesn't even have to be deep or meaningful as we've seen with James Bond, Indiana Jones, Dragon Ball season 1, etc. It's just an extra layer to get invested in.

I don't disagree there. I also think (as I was saying on another thread recently) that the original DB anime really played up a potential Goku and Bulma romance by the end of the series. It didn't happen that way since, as you said, Toriyama isn't a romance writer in that sense, but there's plenty of visual cues showing that Bulma is attracted to Goku during the 23rd Budokai, and she likes the person he's grown into. That, and the ED 4 credits of Romantic Ageru Yo really plays up the possibility.

[BWri]

I don't disagree there. I also think (as I was saying on another thread recently) that the original DB anime really played up a potential Goku and Bulma romance by the end of the series. It didn't happen that way since, as you said, Toriyama isn't a romance writer in that sense, but there's plenty of visual cues showing that Bulma is attracted to Goku during the 23rd Budokai, and she likes the person he's grown into. That, and the ED 4 credits of Romantic Ageru Yo really plays up the possibility.

I actually like that hint of attraction and I like that it didn't evolve into Bulma pining for him all the time as what typically happens when someone has developed an attraction to someone else in a manga/anime. Something like that works great with Toriyama's style. Feels more realistic IMO. It also leaves the impression that something might have developed between them if Goku had not married Chi-Chi, but that's speculation for another day, I suppose.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I actually like that hint of attraction and I like that it didn't evolve into Bulma pining for him all the time as what typically happens when someone has developed an attraction to someone else in a manga/anime. Something like that works great with Toriyama's style. Feels more realistic IMO. It also leaves the impression that something might have developed between them if Goku had not married Chi-Chi, but that's speculation for another day, I suppose.

Yeah, I actually think the hints and implications work better than if they had actually ended up together. I'm glad that Toriyama chose to play to his strengths. Something definitely could have developed between Bulma and Goku, and probably would have been a healthier relationship, but honestly they're the two oldest friends of the bunch and that's enough for the story.

I think Gohan and Videl works as well as it does because he played up Gohan's kind, unassuming nature, and he wrote Videl as a strong-willed martial artist who gradually softened toward him. That, and the fact that Videl was the daughter of the man who took credit for killing Cell gave it an immediate hook and an extremely interesting dynamic. Unfortunately the "softened" angle is what Videl completely became in her current iteration especially, but the story works in Z.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

A great story will stand out and feel timeless. A good story within certain conventions will only fit within said conventions. Media properties need to evolve or they risk becoming stagnant and dull. I understand that Dragon Ball is limited by the end of Z, and needing to fit within that 10 year time gap, but that doesn't mean that you can't challenge the status quo. Battle of Gods ended with Goku failing to defeat the supposed big bad, and on top of that it turns out he wasn't even the strongest guy in the room, his flamboyant man servant was. Super Broly completely flipped our perception of big bad strong Broly on its head. Instead giving us an abuse victim who just wants a life of peace and love that he never knew. It got myself and most people I know who saw that movie rooting for Broly to survive instead of rooting for Goku and Vegeta to win.
In conclusion I think it's entirely possible to do a great story within Dragon Ball that will stand out as a diamond amongst the franchise as a whole.
Super had some unique ideas and big aspirations that had potential to be truly great Dragon Ball stories, but they either played it too safe (TOP) or just missed the landing entirely. (Zamasu)