Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Cherry-picking feats at its finest.

They are merely the facts. You can count the amount of times Future Zamasu actually lands a genuine hit on anyone on one hand.

Trunks giving pressure to Goku Black means nothing. He obviously isn't God level.

Thanks for conceding by acknowledging the times Zamasu hurt SSB fighters That it happened sporadically means nothing because the feats stand, that's not how debates work. You can't say the feats don't stand just because there are few of them for a character that appeared for less than 10 episodes literally. You can also count on one hands the amount of times Beerus lands a genuine hit on Vegeta lol, that's a non-argument that completely ignores context and attempts to erase existing feats.

"Trunks obviously isn't God level if we ignore his God level feats obviously."

[Xeno Goku Black]

But obviously, that's a fluke and not evidence of anything, right?

Correct as there's been many examples of a character attacking a group of Z Fighters and them all sustaining equal damage despite having widely different power levels.

Trunks was one shot by Super Saiyan 3 Goku so obviously it was a fluke.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Thanks for conceding by acknowledging the times Zamasu hurt SSB fighters

Hit =/= Hurt. Please read all the words carefully.

You can also count on one hands the amount of times Beerus lands a genuine hit on Vegeta lol, that's a non-argument that completely ignores context and attempts to erase existing feats.

Beerus defeated Vegeta and few hits were all that were requires. Future Zamasu never defeated anyone. He was worthless aside from his immortality.

[Thani]

I wouldn't say worthless, since it was because of his presence that Black managed to fare so well against the heroes - their stellar teamwork was repeatedly stated to be the most troublesome thing about them.

But yeah, he can hold his own for a while against the SSB characters, but he's consistently kept at around Trunks' level or slightly above him (anime) or explicitly below him (manga). In the anime, I'd wager he could fight SS2 Trunks to a standstill if he's serious, since the one time he outright "lost" their battle was due to him being already immortal and thus fighting with much less care about his own safety, since it doesn't matter if he's struck.

There were even moments where Goku would have taken Zamasu down in a single hit, and it's evident because Zamasu stops moving for a while after these hits, only to get back like nothing happened because of his immortality (and even mocking Goku that he can't beat him because he's immortal).

So yeah, Future Zamasu and Future Trunks are the weakest fighters in the whole future drama, being somewhat equal in the anime and Zamasu being explicitly the weakest in the manga.

Let's not forget that in DBS people fight stronger opponents all the time for a while before getting overwhelmed. Zamasu fought SSB Goku in the manga for a while despite being even weaker than Trunks and did the same in the anime. Vegeta managed to catch Beerus offguard in BoG. Hit could fight SSB Goku without his timeskip before getting overwhelmed in the U6 Tournament. Likewise, Goku managed to fight SS2 Caulifla in his Base form and do pretty well, despite being obviously weaker than her at that moment. Hell, he fought Jiren in his regular SSB despite the Pride Trooper absolutely merking him even with SSBKKx20, despite obviously still being no match for him.

[SupremeKai25]

The ultimate proof that Future Zamasu is SSB level is that Goku Black, who fought Ikari Trunks, sent Future Zamasu to torture and kill Ikari Trunks, Bulma, and Mai as part of his scheme to get stronger.

Which means that Black was confident Future Zamasu had the strength to kill Ikari Trunks. If this doesn't prove he's not a "weakling", I don't know what does. Canon is clear.

Thanks for conceding by acknowledging the times Zamasu hurt SSB fighters

Hit =/= Hurt. Please read all the words carefully.

If Zamasu couldn't hurt SSB Goku then he wouldn't have bothered to dodge his ki attacks.

Also SSB Goku couldn't hurt Future Zamasu either while they fought.

Beerus defeated Vegeta and few hits were all that were requires. Future Zamasu never defeated anyone. He was worthless aside from his immortality.

You shot yourself in the foot by giving me context for that fight because it proves that your argument was flawed as it ignored all context.

Yes, Future Zamasu "rarely hit and damaged his enemies", but this is a non-argument that ignores context completely, because 1) [Future] Zamasu appeared in less than 10 episodes so he had very little screentime 2) He agreed with Black that he would be his "shield" so he mostly spent the fights protecting Black from dangerous attacks, and let Black go on attack 3) He would usually just tank attacks and take pleasure in his Immortality. But this by no means makes Zamasu weak.

It is also Canonically stated that Future Zamasu "drops his guard" whenever he fights, because he knows nothing can kill him. So he willingly handicaps himself every fight by always dropping his guard completely, while all his enemies being mortal have their guard up (Black included). Thereby his enemies constantly getting hits on Future Zamasu doesn't make him fodder.

Also Future Zamasu is not "worthless", he's worthless power-wise only in Toyotaro's comic, where it's made explicitly clear that he's weak and even Trunks could beat him. No such statement is made in the anime, in fact the opposite is stated by Goku. Future Zamasu in the Anime was more than capable of holding his own against SSB Goku, with Goku even noting that he felt "different" compared to Present Zamasu.

It is hardly surprising that Future Zamasu can comfortably fight SSB-level fighters when his weaker Present self already reminded Goku of his fight with Beerus, the narrative is clear

[Goku9001]

Correct as there's been many examples of a character attacking a group of Z Fighters and them all sustaining equal damage despite having widely different power levels.

Trunks was one shot by Super Saiyan 3 Goku so obviously it was a fluke.

Name those examples.

Or perhaps Trunks being one-shot by SSJ3 Goku is the fluke?

[ZombieVito]

The ultimate proof that Future Zamasu is SSB level is that Goku Black, who fought Ikari Trunks, sent Future Zamasu to torture and kill Ikari Trunks, Bulma, and Mai as part of his scheme to get stronger.

Which means that Black was confident Future Zamasu had the strength to kill Ikari Trunks. If this doesn't prove he's not a "weakling", I don't know what does. Canon is clear.

Thanks for conceding by acknowledging the times Zamasu hurt SSB fighters

Hit =/= Hurt. Please read all the words carefully.

If Zamasu couldn't hurt SSB Goku then he wouldn't have bothered to dodge his ki attacks.

Also SSB Goku couldn't hurt Future Zamasu either while they fought.

Beerus defeated Vegeta and few hits were all that were requires. Future Zamasu never defeated anyone. He was worthless aside from his immortality.

You shot yourself in the foot by giving me context for that fight because it proves that your argument was flawed as it ignored all context.

Yes, Future Zamasu "rarely hit and damaged his enemies", but this is a non-argument that ignores context completely, because 1) [Future] Zamasu appeared in less than 10 episodes so he had very little screentime 2) He agreed with Black that he would be his "shield" so he mostly spent the fights protecting Black from dangerous attacks, and let Black go on attack 3) He would usually just tank attacks and take pleasure in his Immortality. But this by no means makes Zamasu weak.

It is also Canonically stated that Future Zamasu "drops his guard" whenever he fights, because he knows nothing can kill him. So he willingly handicaps himself every fight by always dropping his guard completely, while all his enemies being mortal have their guard up (Black included). Thereby his enemies constantly getting hits on Future Zamasu doesn't make him fodder.

Also Future Zamasu is not "worthless", he's worthless power-wise only in Toyotaro's comic, where it's made explicitly clear that he's weak and even Trunks could beat him. No such statement is made in the anime, in fact the opposite is stated by Goku. Future Zamasu in the Anime was more than capable of holding his own against SSB Goku, with Goku even noting that he felt "different" compared to Present Zamasu.

It is hardly surprising that Future Zamasu can comfortably fight SSB-level fighters when his weaker Present self already reminded Goku of his fight with Beerus, the narrative is clear

Zamasu doesn't need to be god level to kill Trunks. Immortality will allow him to do that eventually.

Also of course Goku will dodge his ki blast. Weak ass Sorbet almost killed him two arcs earlier. A ki blast landing unprotected by a SS2 tier opponent will surely kill him.

But the biggest confirmation for Zamasu being SS2 tier is that base Black was only SS3 before episode 50. Black said it himself in episode 61, he achieved greater power by switching bodies so that confirms Base Black > Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu doesn't need to be god level to kill Trunks. Immortality will allow him to do that eventually.

Unless you mean that Garlic Jr. can also kill Ikari Trunks, then No, Immortality alone doesn't give him any power boost of any kind.

If you mean that he would kill him by "outlasting" him, that would mean that Black was ready to keep Goku and Vegeta busy for how many months/years were necessary for Future Zamasu to outlast a fighter like Ikari Trunks who was one of the strongest at the time.

Also of course Goku will dodge his ki blast. Weak ass Sorbet almost killed him two arcs earlier. A ki blast landing unprotected by a SS2 tier opponent will surely kill him.

Getting shot while in Base form and with guard down =/= Getting shot while in charged SSB form and with guard up

The two situations aren't comparable.

But the biggest confirmation for Zamasu being SS2 tier is that base Black was only SS3 before episode 50

The crux of this whole argument is that Goku retained the power of God in his Base and SS forms after fighting Beerus, based on statements verbatim in the BoG arc. So Super SS3 Goku would also be relative to BoG SSG Goku and above anyone from Z, same thing for Base Black.

Which explains why Base Black after getting that Zenkai boost is able to severely hurt SSB Vegeta.

Black said it himself in episode 61, he achieved greater power by switching bodies so that confirms Base Black > Zamasu.

Never denied that. Base Black was an absolute beast who could seriously hurt Vegeta with a casual kick. Zamasu can't replicate that.

This doesn't erase Zamasu's feats against SSB fighters however.

You know I honestly don't understand why you think Zamasu being in the God tier somehow makes Black unimpressive or belittles his achievements, that's an unfounded fear. As I said before the God tier is a very broad umbrella term and Black is easily towards very top (before Ultra Instinct is introduced). Future Zamasu would stand no chance against Black, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't stand a chance against SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta, because these two in the end were weaker than Black. So Zamasu being able to fight the two SSB fighters doesn't undermine Black's standing because he was much stronger than them, to the point that his strength "surpassed his own understanding".

Just because two characters are in the same tier doesn't mean they are comparable in strength. Kefla and Shirtless Jiren are also in the same general UI tier but Jiren would stomp Kefla. Same thing here with Black, SS2 Trunks, and Future Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

You don't seem to understand.

Initial base Black is severely weaker than the one from episode 56. Even before getting his big zenkai after fighting SS2 Goku, he also grew stronger during the whole year he tormented Trunks.

Before all those power ups, he was still stronger than Zamasu and since by episode 50 Black was only a little stronger than SS3 Goku then Zamasu stops at SS2 tier.

[SupremeKai25]

You don't seem to understand.

Initial base Black is severely weaker than the one from episode 56. Even before getting his big zenkai after fighting SS2 Goku, he also grew stronger during the whole year he tormented Trunks.

Before all those power ups, he was still stronger than Zamasu and since by episode 50 Black was only a little stronger than SS3 Goku then Zamasu stops at SS2 tier.

Zamasu is not stopping at SS2 tier when he fought evenly with and pressured SSB Goku, fully tanked SSR Black's kamehameha, and was stated (by both himself and Black, who rarely misjudges someone's power level) capable of killing Super Saiyan Rage Trunks. In ep. 62 he was fighting SSB Vegeta off-screen and in ep. 64 he was fighting SSB Goku off-screen. All of this, while keeping his guard completely down due to being Immortal.

The bottom line here is this.

[ZombieVito]

You don't seem to understand.

Initial base Black is severely weaker than the one from episode 56. Even before getting his big zenkai after fighting SS2 Goku, he also grew stronger during the whole year he tormented Trunks.

Before all those power ups, he was still stronger than Zamasu and since by episode 50 Black was only a little stronger than SS3 Goku then Zamasu stops at SS2 tier.

Zamasu is not stopping at SS2 tier when he fought evenly with and pressured SSB Goku, fully tanked SSR Black's kamehameha, and was stated (by both himself and Black, who rarely misjudges someone's power level) capable of killing Super Saiyan Rage Trunks. In ep. 62 he was fighting SSB Vegeta off-screen and in ep. 64 he was fighting SSB Goku off-screen. All of this, while keeping his guard completely down due to being Immortal.

The bottom line here is this.

Look, I get it, Zamasu is your favorite character. He's mine too but the story is pretty clear on this. There's no arguing when Goku Black himself said he gained greater power by changing bodies.

Future Zamasu can't be stronger than initial base Goku Black.

All those instances you mentioned were already explained.

[SupremeKai25]

You don't seem to understand.

Initial base Black is severely weaker than the one from episode 56. Even before getting his big zenkai after fighting SS2 Goku, he also grew stronger during the whole year he tormented Trunks.

Before all those power ups, he was still stronger than Zamasu and since by episode 50 Black was only a little stronger than SS3 Goku then Zamasu stops at SS2 tier.

Zamasu is not stopping at SS2 tier when he fought evenly with and pressured SSB Goku, fully tanked SSR Black's kamehameha, and was stated (by both himself and Black, who rarely misjudges someone's power level) capable of killing Super Saiyan Rage Trunks. In ep. 62 he was fighting SSB Vegeta off-screen and in ep. 64 he was fighting SSB Goku off-screen. All of this, while keeping his guard completely down due to being Immortal.

The bottom line here is this.

Look, I get it, Zamasu is your favorite character. He's mine too but the story is pretty clear on this. There's no arguing when Goku Black himself said he gained greater power by changing bodies.

Future Zamasu can't be stronger than initial base Goku Black.

All those instances you mentioned were already explained.

You keep dismissing the feats because they don't fit *your* narrative. I never said Zamasu is stronger than initial Black. Nor did I ever say that he's stronger than SSB fighters. All I said is that he is relative to them and can fight them comfortably, which is what Canon shows us.

Once again, Post-Zenkai Base Black = SSB Vegeta [able to hurt him] > Initial Base Black > Future Zamasu, but since Future Zamasu is still in that general tier of God power (introduced in BoG with 10% Beerus and SSG Goku, and the God Base plot point), he can reasonable challenge and hold his own against SSB fighters.

I don't know why some people are so adamant in denying Future Zamasu's legit feats, when there are crazy things in Super like Android 17 somehow damaging Full Power Jiren or the entirety of episode 66.

I never even said that Future Zamasu is stronger or equal to Black and the SSB Saiyans, I just said that he can fight them comfortably based on what is shown. Which is still true even though he's weaker. Goku was also weaker than Cell and he could still hold his own against him in the Cell Games.

[Goku9001]

I don't think comparing to Initial Goku Black really matters here since the whole point behind Zamasu assimilating Goku's body was that Goku's body had far greater potential than his. It doesn't necessarily mean that Goku's body initially would yield him more power since Zamasu 's goal was to extract more power from Goku's body by learning how to use it. There's a precedent for this with Ginyu where Goku-Ginyu ended up being much weaker than Ginyu despite Goku's body having more potential. Same principle here. Even the manga has Goku Black initially as a weaksauce as he was presumably far weaker than Trunks and had to unlock SSJ to even fight him.

Base Goku Black upon his rematch was still overpowered by SSJB Vegeta whereas Zamasu actually held his own against SSJB Goku without immortality coming into play. Goku Black was only relevant in the anime because of Super Saiyan Rose. His base form accomplished practically nothing.

Like, I don't really understand the point of mentioning him. We can clearly see based on feats alone that Zamasu is roughly Blue tier which already places him above Base Goku Black by default. This is just mental gymnastics. If Zamasu was as weak as many are proposing, then Goku would have beaten the living sh*t out of him, outside of immortality, the same way Vegeta did to Trunks. Goku only managed to do so with a rage boost. Without it, he wasn't really dominant over him at all.

[Goku9001]

Look, I get it, Zamasu is your favorite character. He's mine too but the story is pretty clear on this. There's no arguing when Goku Black himself said he gained greater power by changing bodies.

Future Zamasu can't be stronger than initial base Goku Black.

All those instances you mentioned were already explained.

So Zamasu's supposed feats against SSJB Goku were a result of immortality even though it was never used outside of Goku attacking Zamasu when he was distracted? This is clearly dishonest. That is an arbitrary rule that you invented. Nothing suggests that Zamasu cannot be stronger than Initial Goku Black. Zamasu sought for Goku's body after watching his battle with Hit where Goku, who already proved to be stronger than him, had access to divine power that made him significantly stronger. The only thing this supports is that SSJR Goku Black must be stronger than Zamasu, but it by no means necessitates Base Goku Black being stronger than Zamasu. That's absurd when feats suggest otherwise.

[ZombieVito]

I never said Zamasu is stronger than initial Black.

The thing is, initial base Black is weaker than SS3 tier so Future Zamasu can't be SS3 tier. It's that simple.

The few instances he held is own against Goku was just his skill and immortality coming into play. Same thing happened in the manga. Only difference is that Goku never depowers in the anime since Blue doesn't drain stamina to the extend the manga does.

Nothing suggests that Zamasu cannot be stronger than Initial Goku Black. Zamasu sought for Goku's body after watching his battle with Hit where Goku, who already proved to be stronger than him, had access to divine power that made him significantly stronger. The only thing this supports is that SSJR Goku Black must be stronger than Zamasu, but it by no means necessitates Base Goku Black being stronger than Zamasu. That's absurd when feats suggest otherwise.

Base Black is stronger. That's exactly what Black says.

"By abandoning the body known as Zamasu, my heart became one with your body, and I gained greater strength".

He never says he eventually gained greater strength. He's stronger from the get go.

[Goku9001]

Base Black is stronger. That's exactly what Black says.

"By abandoning the body known as Zamasu, my heart became one with your body, and I gained greater strength".

He never says he eventually gained greater strength. He's stronger from the get go.

That's a very general statement and doesn't at all imply that he was referring to Base Goku Black. Greater strength in this context can very well mean having access to Saiyan potential in addition to having the power of a deity, which is actually what Zamasu sought for.

Let's not forget that those are 2 different Zamasus which means that their power can fluctuate as a result of originating from different timelines.

[SupremeKai25]

I never said Zamasu is stronger than initial Black.

The thing is, initial base Black is weaker than SS3 tier so Future Zamasu can't be SS3 tier. It's that simple.

Because the crux of this argument is my reporting Goku's statement verbatim from BoG about the God Base plot point:




So what this tells us is that all of Goku's forms lower than SSG, starting from Base, got a massive power boost in Super as he incorporated God power into them.

Which means that "SS3 Goku" in Super is way stronger than "SS3 Goku" in DBZ who fought Fat and Kid Buu, thanks to God power.

Which in other words means that Initial Goku Black fighting SS3 Goku doesn't make him too much weaker than SSB, because SS3 has the power of SSG, and that Future Zamasu can still be challenged by SS2 Trunks (who fought SS3 Goku), while at the same time being able to fight SSB fighters on his own, due to all being in the same tier. Black is way above Zamasu and SS2 Trunks but they are still all in the same tier which is very broad as I said many times, but it's simply a result of Super introducing a whole new level of power compared to DBZ, and since DB always escalates things, the new antagonists (even the minor ones) scale accordingly.

Ignoring all of his actual feats of course.

So by taking this clear statement from BoG into consideration, about SS Goku not feeling like he lost any power from SSG (which clearly means he got some kind of power boost that pushed his SS form to equal Initial SSG), we can conclude that Present Zamasu is already a solid God tier since he sparred with SS2 Goku, and reminded Goku of his fight with Beerus.

Future Zamasu had 20 more years of training (with Goku noting that Present Zamasu had ton of potential and could surpass Beerus if he kept training) and experience from killing ningens, and is noted by Goku himself to feel "different" from Present Zamasu (people argue that Jiren > Fused Zamasu because his statement about "different" means "stronger", so in this context we can apply the same logic and say that Future Zamasu > Present Zamasu who could already spar with Post-BoG SS2 Goku).




So in other words what this means is that Future Zamasu's standing as a confirmed God tier (ranging anywhere from Initial BoG SSG to SSB Kaioken x20 right before UI) allows him to hold his own against any SSB fighters thanks to strength alone. I don't deny that he'd be killed eventually without Immortality and regeneration capabilities, but he still has the power to reasonably fight these people on his own, as we saw many times in the brief period where he appeared. Indeed, his FIRST FIGHT EVER ON-SCREEN, involves him holding his own against SSB Goku and actually forcing him to run at one point, so he did very well.

When you say that Future Zamasu can't compare to God-level fighters, you're asking me to ignore his entire debut fight

[ZombieVito]

Which means that "SS3 Goku" in Super is way stronger than "SS3 Goku" in DBZ who fought Fat and Kid Buu, thanks to God power.

Wait. Do you really thought I meant Z SS3 Goku when I argued SS3 Goku > Initial base Black > Zamasu?



Zamasu is SS2 tier, CURRENT SS2 tier. The same tier that is over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

[Goku9001]

Future Zamasu even being SSJ3 tier is still wrong.

[SupremeKai25]

Which means that "SS3 Goku" in Super is way stronger than "SS3 Goku" in DBZ who fought Fat and Kid Buu, thanks to God power.

Wait. Do you really thought I meant Z SS3 Goku when I argued SS3 Goku > Initial base Black > Zamasu?



Zamasu is SS2 tier, CURRENT SS2 tier. The same tier that is over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought