Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Which means that "SS3 Goku" in Super is way stronger than "SS3 Goku" in DBZ who fought Fat and Kid Buu, thanks to God power.

Wait. Do you really thought I meant Z SS3 Goku when I argued SS3 Goku > Initial base Black > Zamasu?



Zamasu is SS2 tier, CURRENT SS2 tier. The same tier that is over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

Should be:

SSJB Goku >~ Future Zamasu >> Base Goku Black >> Initial Goku Black >~ SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku >~ Present Zamasu.

I'll have to do a breakdown on all of Zamasu's feats at some point because he certainly isn't SSJ2 level. SSJB Goku's clash with Future Zamasu paralleled SSJ2 Goku's clash with Present Zamasu which was clearly used to distinguish Future Zamasu from Present Zamasu and establish him as a great threat. Both Present Zamasu and Initial Goku Black were perceived as non-threats and both Future Zamasu and Goku Black (Post) were introduced to subvert that perception.

At the very least, Future Zamasu and Base Goku Black are on par with each other, but Future Zamasu's performance against SSJB Goku was clearly better than Base Goku Black's on SSJB Vegeta. The best Base Goku Black could do was slip through SSJB Vegeta's guard when he let his guard down, but otherwise, he was consistently shown to be below SSJB level whereas Future Zamasu consistently parried and dodged blows from SSJB Goku without requiring immortality. He even pinned SSJB Goku into a wall. The only time Future Zamasu was overwhelmed was after SSJB Goku's rage boost or when he was distracted or deliberately wanted to be attacked, as Goku and Trunks stated.

Initial Goku Black was stated to be weaksauce whereas Future Zamasu was clearly introduced as a threat before they were even privy to Zamasu's immortality. It's absurd to suggest that Initial Goku Black is remotely close to Future Zamasu. The only thing that is required is that SSJR Goku Black is above Future Zamasu, given that Zamasu sought Goku's body because of his Saiyan potential and ability to use God Ki. Otherwise, nothing necessitates Base Goku Black to be stronger than Future Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

Wait. Do you really thought I meant Z SS3 Goku when I argued SS3 Goku > Initial base Black > Zamasu?



Zamasu is SS2 tier, CURRENT SS2 tier. The same tier that is over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

Should be:

SSJB Goku >~ Future Zamasu >> Base Goku Black >> Initial Goku Black >~ SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku >~ Present Zamasu.

I'll have to do a breakdown on all of Zamasu's feats at some point because he certainly isn't SSJ2 level. SSJB Goku's clash with Future Zamasu paralleled SSJ2 Goku's clash with Present Zamasu which was clearly used to distinguish Future Zamasu from Present Zamasu and establish him as a great threat. Both Present Zamasu and Initial Goku Black were perceived as non-threats and both Future Zamasu and Goku Black (Post) were introduced to subvert that perception.

At the very least, Future Zamasu and Base Goku Black are on par with each other, but Future Zamasu's performance against SSJB Goku was clearly better than Base Goku Black's on SSJB Vegeta. The best Base Goku Black could do was slip through SSJB Vegeta's guard when he let his guard down, but otherwise, he was consistently shown to be below SSJB level whereas Future Zamasu consistently parried and dodged blows from SSJB Goku without requiring immortality. He even pinned SSJB Goku into a wall. The only time Future Zamasu was overwhelmed was after SSJB Goku's rage boost or when he was distracted or deliberately wanted to be attacked, as Goku and Trunks stated.

Initial Goku Black was stated to be weaksauce whereas Future Zamasu was clearly introduced as a threat before they were even privy to Zamasu's immortality. It's absurd to suggest that Initial Goku Black is remotely close to Future Zamasu. The only thing that is required is that SSJR Goku Black is above Future Zamasu, given that Zamasu sought Goku's body because of his Saiyan potential and ability to use God Ki. Otherwise, nothing necessitates Base Goku Black to be stronger than Future Zamasu.

Well I wouldn't put Future Zamasu above Base Goku Black because as I said earlier Base Goku Black was absolutely incredible, he was able to severely hurt SSB Vegeta with just one casual kick and was tanking all of his attacks without any issue, and without Immortality. I'd say in raw power ep. 56 Base Black > Future Zamasu. But I can see arguments for both sides.

But Yeah Future Zamasu is incredibly underrated sometimes, which maybe shouldn't be too surprising since he was always overshadowed by Black and Zamasu mostly served as support for him in battle (whether it was to tank attacks or to help him finish off strugglers).

Regardless every single time Zamasu fought the Saiyans, he forced them to use SSB. At no point will you ever see Future Zamasu fight SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta. That to me is ultimate confirmation of Future Zamasu's standing.

[Goku9001]

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

Should be:

SSJB Goku >~ Future Zamasu >> Base Goku Black >> Initial Goku Black >~ SSJ3 Goku >> SSJ2 Goku >~ Present Zamasu.

I'll have to do a breakdown on all of Zamasu's feats at some point because he certainly isn't SSJ2 level. SSJB Goku's clash with Future Zamasu paralleled SSJ2 Goku's clash with Present Zamasu which was clearly used to distinguish Future Zamasu from Present Zamasu and establish him as a great threat. Both Present Zamasu and Initial Goku Black were perceived as non-threats and both Future Zamasu and Goku Black (Post) were introduced to subvert that perception.

At the very least, Future Zamasu and Base Goku Black are on par with each other, but Future Zamasu's performance against SSJB Goku was clearly better than Base Goku Black's on SSJB Vegeta. The best Base Goku Black could do was slip through SSJB Vegeta's guard when he let his guard down, but otherwise, he was consistently shown to be below SSJB level whereas Future Zamasu consistently parried and dodged blows from SSJB Goku without requiring immortality. He even pinned SSJB Goku into a wall. The only time Future Zamasu was overwhelmed was after SSJB Goku's rage boost or when he was distracted or deliberately wanted to be attacked, as Goku and Trunks stated.

Initial Goku Black was stated to be weaksauce whereas Future Zamasu was clearly introduced as a threat before they were even privy to Zamasu's immortality. It's absurd to suggest that Initial Goku Black is remotely close to Future Zamasu. The only thing that is required is that SSJR Goku Black is above Future Zamasu, given that Zamasu sought Goku's body because of his Saiyan potential and ability to use God Ki. Otherwise, nothing necessitates Base Goku Black to be stronger than Future Zamasu.

Well I wouldn't put Future Zamasu above Base Goku Black because as I said earlier Base Goku Black was absolutely incredible, he was able to severely hurt SSB Vegeta with just one casual kick and was tanking all of his attacks without any issue, and without Immortality. I'd say in raw power ep. 56 Base Black > Future Zamasu. But I can see arguments for both sides.

But Yeah Future Zamasu is incredibly underrated sometimes, which maybe shouldn't be too surprising since he was always overshadowed by Black and Zamasu mostly served as support for him in battle (whether it was to tank attacks or to help him finish off strugglers).

Regardless every single time Zamasu fought the Saiyans, he forced them to use SSB. At no point will you ever see Future Zamasu fight SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta. That to me is ultimate confirmation of Future Zamasu's standing.

This is true. It makes me wonder if going Super Saiyan for Goku Black in the anime doesn't result in a drastic boost given how strong Base Goku Black already was. He was definitely stronger than Super Saiyan God and yet SSJR Goku Black isn't drastically stronger than SSJB Goku initially.

What muddies things is Trunks considering how SSJ2 Trunks eventually overpowered him despite getting one-shot by SSJ3 Goku, but I think it's clear that SSJ2 Trunks was Blue level at that point in time for whatever reason. Goku doesn't even tell Trunks to retreat at all which is out-of-character if Trunks was much weaker considering how Goku warned the Kaioshins to retreat during their 3rd visit to Trunks' timeline.

[ZombieVito]

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

I suppose Future Zamasu can be stronger than SS2 tier but not SS3 tier since Base Goku Black barely reached the tier by episode 50.

Good thing the difference between tiers is 4 times so it can fit something like this.

SSR Goku Black: 55,000
SSB Goku: 50,000
Goku Black Ep. 56: 1,100
SSG Goku: 1,000
Goku Black Ep. 50: 440
SS3 Goku: 400
Initial Goku Black: 220
SS2 Future Trunks Ep. 49: 180
Future Zamasu: 150
SS2: Goku | Zamasu: 100
Goku: 1

[SupremeKai25]

This is true. It makes me wonder if going Super Saiyan for Goku Black in the anime doesn't result in a drastic boost given how strong Base Goku Black already was. He was definitely stronger than Super Saiyan God and yet SSJR Goku Black isn't drastically stronger than SSJB Goku initially.

What muddies things is Trunks considering how SSJ2 Trunks eventually overpowered him despite getting one-shot by SSJ3 Goku, but I think it's clear that SSJ2 Trunks was Blue level at that point in time for whatever reason. Goku doesn't even tell Trunks to retreat at all which is out-of-character if Trunks was much weaker considering how Goku warned the Kaioshins to retreat during their 3rd visit to Trunks' timeline.

That scene where Future Trunks stabs Future Zamasu is clearly blown out of proportions. What some people ignore is that it is Canonically stated that Zamasu always fights with his guard down, due to being Immortal. So he never keeps his guard up in fights, unlike literally every other fighter in the verse

This is Canonically stated in ep. 63 and reiterated in the following episode:




So it is a plot point in Canon that Future Zamasu ALWAYS fights carelessly and drops his guard, because he knows he is Immortal and it makes him happy to get hit by attacks.

Future Zamasu is the one and only character in DBS (alongside obviously Fused Zamasu) who doesn't look bad when he gets hit by his enemies, because it's precisely what he wants. Right after Trunks states that, we see that Zamasu willingly gets hit by his attack because it gives him pleasure [since he is Immortal and cannot die, so getting hit by blasts that do nothing to him gives him pleasure].

So essentially what this means is that Trunks stabbing Zamasu means nothing because Zamasu 1) wants to get hit 2) constantly keeps his guard down to get hit.

Scaling Future Zamasu down to SS2 Trunks level just because of that scene is like scaling Goku down to Sorbet level due to the laser scene. Imagine if Goku constantly fought with his guard down, that's Future Zamasu's fighting style.

Zamasu getting hit by opponents is never attributed to a supposed "lack of strength" on Zamasu's part, but on his mindset during the fight [fighting carelessly, letting his guard down due to being Immortal].

[Goku9001]

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

I suppose Future Zamasu can be stronger than SS2 tier but not SS3 tier since Base Goku Black barely reached the tier by episode 50.

Good thing the difference between tiers is 4 times so it can fit something like this.

SSR Goku Black: 55,000
SSB Goku: 50,000
Goku Black Ep. 56: 1,100
SSG Goku: 1,000
Goku Black Ep. 50: 440
SS3 Goku: 400
Initial Goku Black: 220
SS2 Future Trunks Ep. 49: 180
Future Zamasu: 150
SS2: Goku | Zamasu: 100
Goku: 1

Where is SSJ2 Trunks (Ep. 57) on that list?

[Goku9001]

This is true. It makes me wonder if going Super Saiyan for Goku Black in the anime doesn't result in a drastic boost given how strong Base Goku Black already was. He was definitely stronger than Super Saiyan God and yet SSJR Goku Black isn't drastically stronger than SSJB Goku initially.

What muddies things is Trunks considering how SSJ2 Trunks eventually overpowered him despite getting one-shot by SSJ3 Goku, but I think it's clear that SSJ2 Trunks was Blue level at that point in time for whatever reason. Goku doesn't even tell Trunks to retreat at all which is out-of-character if Trunks was much weaker considering how Goku warned the Kaioshins to retreat during their 3rd visit to Trunks' timeline.

That scene where Future Trunks stabs Future Zamasu is clearly blown out of proportions. What some people ignore is that it is Canonically stated that Zamasu always fights with his guard down, due to being Immortal. So he never keeps his guard up in fights, unlike literally every other fighter in the verse

This is Canonically stated in ep. 63 and reiterated in the following episode:




So it is a plot point in Canon that Future Zamasu ALWAYS fights carelessly and drops his guard, because he knows he is Immortal and it makes him happy to get hit by attacks.

Future Zamasu is the one and only character in DBS (alongside obviously Fused Zamasu) who doesn't look bad when he gets hit by his enemies, because it's precisely what he wants. Right after Trunks states that, we see that Zamasu willingly gets hit by his attack because it gives him pleasure [since he is Immortal and cannot die, so getting hit by blasts that do nothing to him gives him pleasure].

So essentially what this means is that Trunks stabbing Zamasu means nothing because Zamasu 1) wants to get hit 2) constantly keeps his guard down to get hit.

Scaling Future Zamasu down to SS2 Trunks level just because of that scene is like scaling Goku down to Sorbet level due to the laser scene. Imagine if Goku constantly fought with his guard down, that's Future Zamasu's fighting style.

Zamasu getting hit by opponents is never attributed to a supposed "lack of strength" on Zamasu's part, but on his mindset during the fight [fighting carelessly, letting his guard down due to being Immortal].

Even so, I think SSJ2 Trunks is Blue tier. He managed to parry an attack from SSJR Goku Black, landed a blow, traded multiple hits on him, and then manages to kick him away. SSJR Goku Black then attempts a blindside attack on Trunks in which the best he could do was deflect Trunks' blade away. In the end, SSJ2 Trunks survives a Kamehameha from SSJR Goku Black that nearly killed SSJB Goku. The evidence suggests that SSJ2 Trunks was portrayed to be on par with SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta. The fact that he was one-shot by SSJ3 Goku prior to returning to his timeline is irrelevant because we can just deduce that Trunks simply has gotten stronger since then. The evidence is there. People just refuse to accept it.

I definitely agree with the rest. It was something that I was pointing to. Zamasu was only overwhelmed after a rage boost from Goku (that left him stronger than SSJR Goku Black initially) and when he was distracted/careless. Otherwise, there was no point where Zamasu was shown to be far below SSJB tier. He should definitely be above Super Saiyan God by default.

[SupremeKai25]

For someone who appeared only in 8 episodes and fought only in 5 of those episodes (Yes I counted all of them), Future Zamasu has very good feats and statements, easily one of the most underrated characters in Super.

Not only does his debut fight involves him putting SSB Goku on the run, and most of his subsequent fights show him holding his own against SSB fighters, but statements also put him in a very respected position, with Black promising him that he would be the one to kill Goku (which means he was confident Zamasu could kill SSB Goku), and then with him sending Zamasu to torture and kill Ikari Trunks.

So if anything I have material to push Future Zamasu ABOVE SSB Goku, but that might be a topic for another day

At this point I can only blame Toyotaro for some people underrating Future Zamasu this much, there's no other reason why some would think that he is fodder to SSB fighters when he constantly fights them. I agree that Future Zamasu in the manga is much weaker but that's because we have a clear statement from Goku putting Future Zamasu below even Trunks (and there is no God Base form in the manga). If I really wanted to I could argue that Goku misjudged Zamasu's power level though (it wouldn't be the first time, see Broly ). And also to be fair Black was also a bitch in the manga so it's not an issue just with Future Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

I suppose Future Zamasu can be stronger than SS2 tier but not SS3 tier since Base Goku Black barely reached the tier by episode 50.

Good thing the difference between tiers is 4 times so it can fit something like this.

SSR Goku Black: 55,000
SSB Goku: 50,000
Goku Black Ep. 56: 1,100
SSG Goku: 1,000
Goku Black Ep. 50: 440
SS3 Goku: 400
Initial Goku Black: 220
SS2 Future Trunks Ep. 49: 180
Future Zamasu: 150
SS2: Goku | Zamasu: 100
Goku: 1

Where is SSJ2 Trunks (Ep. 57) on that list?

180. He's not blue tier just because he managed to kick Black once.

[Goku9001]

I suppose Future Zamasu can be stronger than SS2 tier but not SS3 tier since Base Goku Black barely reached the tier by episode 50.

Good thing the difference between tiers is 4 times so it can fit something like this.

SSR Goku Black: 55,000
SSB Goku: 50,000
Goku Black Ep. 56: 1,100
SSG Goku: 1,000
Goku Black Ep. 50: 440
SS3 Goku: 400
Initial Goku Black: 220
SS2 Future Trunks Ep. 49: 180
Future Zamasu: 150
SS2: Goku | Zamasu: 100
Goku: 1

Where is SSJ2 Trunks (Ep. 57) on that list?

180. He's not blue tier just because he managed to kick Black once.

That kick isn't the only thing he did. He parried an attack from him, landed 2 kicks on him, traded multiple blows with him, and even blocked a blindside attack from SSJR Goku Black. He even withstood a KHH from SSJR Goku Black and continued to fight on an equal level as SSJB Vegeta did against SSJR Goku Black during their 2nd visit. He is consistently shown to be Blue level as of Ep. 57.

[SupremeKai25]

Then you concede to my point.

My point being:

SSB Goku > Future Zamasu > SS2 Goku > Present Zamasu

Which would make Future Zamasu stronger than SS2 and able to force Goku to go SSB, which is indeed what happened on-screen every time they fought

I suppose Future Zamasu can be stronger than SS2 tier but not SS3 tier since Base Goku Black barely reached the tier by episode 50.

Good thing the difference between tiers is 4 times so it can fit something like this.

SSR Goku Black: 55,000
SSB Goku: 50,000
Goku Black Ep. 56: 1,100
SSG Goku: 1,000
Goku Black Ep. 50: 440
SS3 Goku: 400
Initial Goku Black: 220
SS2 Future Trunks Ep. 49: 180
Future Zamasu: 150
SS2: Goku | Zamasu: 100
Goku: 1

Base Goku Black thought Future Zamasu could kill SSB Goku because he promised him he could kill Goku.

There's no way there is such a huge gap between Zamasu and Goku, if that were the case then this fight wouldn't be happening, Zamasu would literally get the Frost or Pui Pui treatment:




When Toei wants to make it clear that someone is fodder to someone else, they don't have them fight evenly for an extended period of time. See Frost vs. Vegeta, Frost was fodder to Vegeta and so he was literally oneshot. Then in the ToP he had to resort to hax like the Mafuba because in a direct fight he'd get murdered by Vegeta.

Zamasu never had to resort to hax to fight SSB Goku, as shown in those gifs he had more than enough power to fight SSB Goku by himself so there is simply no way for there to be a significant gap between the two fighters. And this wasn't a cheap trick like Sorbet, this was an extended fight between Future Zamasu and a Charged Bloodlust SSB Goku.

Even Statements and Narrative tell us that Future Zamasu could potentially kill SSB Goku and Ikari Trunks, according to Black.

EDIT- In light of newer statements I discovered/remembered (about Black promising Zamasu he could kill Goku, and then sending him to kill Trunks), I will have to review my tier list. Future Zamasu is not weaker than either Goku or Trunks or that would mean that Black is either stupid or drunk.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Name those examples.

Tagoma attacking the group of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien, Roshi and Krillin for one. All in the exact same attack and all ended up the same way from Piccolo all the way down to Roshi.

The Toei staff don't put in the thought that you seen to think.

[Goku9001]

Name those examples.

Tagoma attacking the group of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien, Roshi and Krillin for one. All in the exact same attack and all ended up the same way from Piccolo all the way down to Roshi.

The Toei staff don't put in the thought that you seen to think.

That's ridiculous as your premise suggests that taking an attack on any caliber, even an amplified Blue level attack, means absolutely nothing

Name anyone significantly below Blue level that has taken a Blue level attack let alone an amplified Blue level attack and actually survived.

[Hugo Boss]

Zamasu never had to resort to hax to fight SSB Goku

Excuse me, what? Didn’t both versions of Zamasu use the Super Dragon Balls because they can’t beat Goku on their own? How exactly do you think the future version powered-up without ever knowing about Goku until Black met him?

Name anyone significantly below Blue level that has taken a Blue level attack let alone an amplified Blue level attack and actually survived.

Piccolo, Gohan, 17 and 18 vs. Moro or Saganbo

[Goku9001]

Name anyone significantly below Blue level that has taken a Blue level attack let alone an amplified Blue level attack and actually survived.
Piccolo, Gohan, 17 and 18 vs. Moro or Saganbo

You mean when Moro explicitly stated that he wanted them to survive whereas Zamasu and Goku Black clearly intended to kill both Goku and Trunks?

But regardless, Gohan & co. aren't many times lower than Saganbo so I don't necessarily see a problem with it.

[Hugo Boss]

You mean when Moro explicitly stated that he wanted them to survive whereas Zamasu and Goku Black clearly intended to kill both Goku and Trunks?

But regardless, Gohan & co. aren't many times lower than Saganbo so I don't necessarily see a problem with it.

Then, clarify what you wants, because it seems you are limiting the scope of your question on purpose. If you want a more specific response, you have to exempt all Dragon Ball Super story arcs in which killing isn’t the objective. In Granolah arc, for example, Goku took a couple of powerful attacks in his forms weaker than Blue and still survived.

[pepd]

There are multiple examples of people receiving attacks from a much more powerful characters and surviving in og DB manga.

There is a lot of contradiction in dbs anime and multiple explanations fit, you can't really blame people for choosing the one they like the best, if not straight up reading into the story that is presented instead of taking it seriously as it is, considering its production.

[Goku9001]

Then, clarify what you wants, because it seems you are limiting the scope of your question on purpose. If you want a more specific response, you have to exempt all Dragon Ball Super story arcs in which killing isn’t the objective. In Granolah arc, for example, Goku took a couple of powerful attacks in his forms weaker than Blue and still survived.

It's pretty obvious given that examples, where attacks are heavily suppressed, aren't relevant to the discussion. I don't need to spell that out for you.

[Goku9001]

There are multiple examples of people receiving attacks from a much more powerful characters and surviving in og DB manga.

There is a lot of contradiction in dbs anime and multiple explanations fit, you can't really blame people for choosing the one they like the best, if not straight up reading into the story that is presented instead of taking it seriously as it is, considering its production.

Many of which are clearly instances in which the stronger fighter is clearly holding back.

Durability is definitely important as it is used to convey how powerful an opponent is in the case of Recoome, Android 18 vs. Vegeta, or Imperfect Cell vs. Piccolo for instance. Here, we are given an explicit indication that SSJR Goku Black's KHH can nearly kill SSJB Goku and yet SSJ2 Trunks survives it as well. The intent is made clear here, SSJR Goku's Black KHH can severely wound Blue level fighters. The fact that Trunks even survives isn't an inconsistency, it simply means he is Blue level hence all of his other feats against SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

Then, clarify what you wants, because it seems you are limiting the scope of your question on purpose. If you want a more specific response, you have to exempt all Dragon Ball Super story arcs in which killing isn’t the objective. In Granolah arc, for example, Goku took a couple of powerful attacks in his forms weaker than Blue and still survived.

It's pretty obvious given that examples, where attacks are heavily suppressed, aren't relevant to the discussion. I don't need to spell that out for you.

I’m not sure why you are talking to me like that, but using expressions like “obvious” and “I don’t need to spell that out for you” denotes gaslighting.

And I don’t see any problem with the example I gave you. Granolah is above Blue tier, his attack is not suppressed, and he has the intent to kill.