Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

The way the line is translated in Spanish gives me the impression that Shin was talking about the attribute of Jiren Ki's. It's simplicity.

Similar to how Goku said Moro's Ki felt like a lot of people screaming in agony. Jiren's Ki just feels simple.

The context should be power as Whis follows up on Kaioshin's statement by suggesting that Jiren's power is that of a GoD or one that surpasses it. All of the statements governing Jiren is a reference to his power as well so Kaioshin's should be no exception.

However, upon further reflection, his statement was definitely referencing Jiren's potential full strength. Anato claims that he senses a greater power from Jiren and Whis makes the observation that Jiren is far from full power. There are various different subs, so I'm not sure of the authenticity of this one. The subtitles on funonline says this:

This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before.

This could be a mistranslation, so take it with a grain of salt.

[SupremeKai25]

So in other words, I would put him on the general range of GoD Toppo, SS2 Kefla and Anilaza (all from the anime), his position there being up to debate.

Anilaza can maybe stand a chance against Halo Fused Zamasu but he gets destroyed by Corrupted Zamasu. SSB Vegito > Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, 17, and Gohan, so Anilaza's performance really wasn't that impressive compared to Zamasu's.

Also he didn't even force Goku to use Kaioken so I'm unsure if he has the strength to even damage Fused Zamasu enough to force him to go Corrupt.

Toppo also gets destroyed by Zamasu. He lost to Vegeta, unless you want to tell me that Vegeta gets a stronger boost from evolving his SSB form (which remains in the SSB form territory) than from fusing with Goku and then going full power as a SSB fusion, then Fused Zamasu defeats Toppo by simple logic.

Toppo in the end lost to SSBE Vegeta who narrative portrayed as Vegeta's counterpart to Goku's Kaioken:



We know that only Vegito could fight Corrupted Fused Zamasu as, by verbatim, Gowasu stated that they needed to "hit him with an attack far stronger than any used before" (which includes Kaioken). So SSBE Vegeta who is portrayed as counterpart to SSB Kaioken wouldn't be too much of a problem for Zamasu and wouldn't be able to hurt him.

Fused Zamasu also tanked both a fully-charged Final Kamehameha and a full-power punch attack to the face from a Bloodlust Full-power Vegito, so he's easily tanking Vegeta's kamikaze attack.

Kefla is also way stronger than Toppo, she was fighting and pressuring UI Omen Goku who is way above SSB Kaioken Goku.

So the scaling presented to us by the ToP arc would be as follows:

MUI Goku > Shirtless Jiren > Full Power Jiren/129 UI Goku > SSB Vegito [small gap] > Corrupted Fused Zamasu > 116 UI Goku > SS2 Kefla > Halo Fused Zamasu/SSBE Vegeta/SSB Kaioken Goku/God Toppo > Anilaza

I still think that if Zamasu isn't messing around then he oneshots Anilaza by destroying his core. 17 could do it so Zamasu can replicate that feat without too many problems. And Anilaza looked that dangerous with his techniques only because the fighters couldn't fly in the ToP, otherwise they would have no problems avoiding his portal attacks...

It's important to note that it seemed like only Fused Zamasu's corrupted half was able to go toe-to-toe with SSB Vegito at first; it was the side that got massively larger and stronger after Goku initially broke his halo.

The rest of him needed to catch up, which reduced his speed but at least put his full body up to snuff with his corrupted half.

It's just a coincidence. He was going to kill Vegito using his normal-looking arm so he wouldn't have done that if it was only half his body that became so strong. Conversely the "Corrupted" half of his face also healed when Vegito punched him, so he still had Regeneration even on his Corrupted half.

[Goku9001]

Just curious about something here. In the manga, Vegeta went from below SSJ Goku Black to surpassing SSJR Goku Black during his rematch with him, correct?

[Hugo Boss]

I am not interpreting the story; I am reporting what happened.

By denying that Zamasu clashed with and held his own against a Bloodlust SSB Goku, you are denying the Canon story presented to us.

None is denying that scene happened. You are using this discourse to dismiss our actual points. It’s just that the anime doesn’t explain how Zamasu actually got that strong, since the Super Dragon Balls didn’t power him up. Not to mention Trunks, whose SS2 would be capable of defeating him several times if it wasn’t for his cheating.

Goku notes, AS HE IS TRADING FISTS WITH ZAMASU, that something's changed, flashback to him TRADING FISTS WITH PRESENT ZAMASU AND GAUGING HIS POWER LEVEL. So he was clearly referring to power level.

It doesn’t necessarily correlate to battle power, Goku never confirmed that. The only thing this Zamasu did was wishing for immortality. He didn’t wish for more power or trained since he met Black. Unless you think he was SSB level since the first encounter and you’d have to explain why he came up with such convoluted plan to beat Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

I am not interpreting the story; I am reporting what happened.

By denying that Zamasu clashed with and held his own against a Bloodlust SSB Goku, you are denying the Canon story presented to us.

None is denying that scene happened.

Some people here said that all Zamasu did was tank some attacks thanks to Immortality (Immortality doesn't even do that, you can still get torn apart physically by attacks even if you are Immortal). That is denying what happened since Zamasu did MUCH MORE against SSB fighters than just tanking their attacks.

The moment you say that all Zamasu did was resist some attacks thanks to Immortality, you are instantly dismissing/denying several battle feats Future Zamasu has.

It must also be stressed that Immortality in itself is not a power boost, unless you want to argue that Garlic Jr. is also SSB level. Immortality in itself is not an offensive hax, all it does is make you immortal. If Krillin became immortal he'd still be fodder to Broly. Immortality is not an attack that you can turn against the enemy.

So the fact that Future Zamasu was Immortal doesn't in any way diminish his accomplishments using his own battle power.

It’s just that the anime doesn’t explain how Zamasu actually got that strong

It doesn't need to.

It also doesn't explain how Jiren got that strong all on his own, we still have to accept that he is that strong.

Feats can remain unexplained/inconsistent but they are still there, you can try to argue that the writers are bad or the story is bad but the feats are still there. I complain all the time about the Father-Son Galick gun overpowering Fused Zamasu, but the feat is still there and I don't deny it. I'm actually very impartial, I don't try to deny that these people could hurt Fused Zamasu even though they had no business even being near him.

A statement was already given that indicates Zamasu's exceptional potential, with Goku noting that [Present] Zamasu could one day become an even stronger Deity than Beerus if he kept training. This can be seen as foreshadowing for Future Zamasu's brilliant power increase in 20 years into the Future.

Not to mention Trunks, whose SS2 would be capable of defeating him several times if it wasn’t for his cheating.

If Zamasu wasn't Immortal, he wouldn't be careless and fight with his guard down. Which means that Trunks wouldn't stab him in the first place.

Remember how Goku was shot in the back and almost killed by Sorbet's laser, because he wasn't paying attention? Due to Immortality, Zamasu is fighting in that state all the time.

It doesn’t necessarily correlate to battle power, Goku never confirmed that

It doesn't need confirmation because it's obvious. The two engage in a battle, as they are battling Goku notes that "something feels different from last time", flashback to his previous fight with Present Zamasu. The context [all referring to a battle context] makes it obvious what Goku is talking about.

If Goku was referring to Zamasu's mindset/mind state, he would have made this comment earlier when Future Zamasu stated that all mortals would be annihilated. Present Zamasu wasn't in that mindset yet.

The only thing this Zamasu did was wishing for immortality. He didn’t wish for more power or trained since he met Black. Unless you think he was SSB level since the first encounter and you’d have to explain why he came up with such convoluted plan to beat Goku.

This goes back to my original argument about the God Base form plot point.

Disbelief in itself is not an argument.

I genuinely cannot believe that Jiren could become that strong all on his own, since he is a mere mortal who comes from a species that lived in literal mud huts. Yet I must acknowledge that Jiren Canonically surpassed most Gods and became one of the strongest mortals in the Multiverse all on his own, with no Divine help of any kind (unlike the U7's Saiyans).

I genuinely cannot believe that 30 wounded civilians and a cat gave Trunks enough power to completely overwhelm and bisect Fused Zamasu, when a Universal spirit bomb struggled to kill Kid Buu. Yet I must acknowledge that Canonically 30 civilians+1 cat indeed gave Trunks enough power to defeat Fused Zamasu.

So sure, maybe it takes some time to come to terms with the fact that Zamasu in 20 years jumped from someone who struggled with SS2 Goku, to someone who could comfortably overpower SSB Goku in a fight, but it happened Canonically and thus must be acknowledged.

Otherwise I might as well declare Jiren fodder because I can't believe he's that strong, but personal disbelief is not an argument

Plus, when it comes to Anime antagonists, their debut fight is ALWAYS very important, as it gives a first general impression of these antagonists and the threat they represent. Black's debut fight involves him completely dominating Trunks, giving us the message that Black is beyond anyone from that timeline. Future Zamasu's debut fight involves him holding his own and forcing SSB Goku to run, giving us the message that Zamasu is confident in his ability to kill Goku and is a noteworthy threat and dangerous ally for Black.

[Hugo Boss]

It also doesn't explain how Jiren got that strong all on his own, we still have to accept that he is that strong.

I don’t think comparing Jiren and Zamasu is adequate because they are different characters with different motivations and backstories. And their approach to gain battle power was very different.

I have no problem with Jiren’s situation, since his strength was set to be beyond SSB. And he had the motivation needed and dedicated his life to build his strength. All justified.

Zamasu in another hand felt powerless when he fought SS2 Goku. This is the kind of strength that was set for him at that point. But instead of training to beat Goku he used shortcuts. So, why should I assume he trained hard during those 20 years without ever knowing Goku? His routine was basically following Gowasu teachings, which had nothing to do with battle oriented training. To be as strong as SSB after 20 years you would have to make contradictory assumptions about Zamasu’s characterization.

A statement was already given that indicates Zamasu's exceptional potential, with Goku noting that [Present] Zamasu could one day become an even stronger Deity than Beerus if he kept training. This can be seen as foreshadowing for Future Zamasu's brilliant power increase in 20 years into the Future.

I took that as foreshadowing Goku Black’s potential with Rosé. Yet this is only a hypothesis. Zamasu doesn’t have the sense for training that Goku does. Goku usually makes this kind of assumption when he wants to spare his opponents for a next match, like he tried to do with Moro, but it doesn’t mean his opponents will do exactly what Goku wonders.

It doesn't need confirmation because it's obvious. The two engage in a battle, as they are battling Goku notes that "something feels different from last time", flashback to his previous fight with Present Zamasu. The context [all referring to a battle context] makes it obvious what Goku is talking about.

If Goku was referring to Zamasu's mindset/mind state, he would have made this comment earlier when Future Zamasu stated that all mortals would be annihilated. Present Zamasu wasn't in that mindset yet.

If it was obvious, I wouldn’t be offering you a different perspective and you haven’t provided me any element to doubt my opinion.

Besides, I didn’t mention mindset, I’m talking about fighting posture. This version of Zamasu was approaching him too recklessly, while the other one was more careful. This is the particular detail that Goku notices in other instances they engage in a match, that after becoming immortal this Zamasu fights carelessly. Nothing you don’t already know and nothing about battle power.

Disbelief in itself is not an argument.

(…)

Otherwise I might as well declare Jiren fodder because I can't believe he's that strong, but personal disbelief is not an argument

Could you please stop with the emojis and gaslighting? This is disrespectful and makes me less encouraged to have any further discussion with you.

I never used “disbelief” as an argument and resorting to this kind of approach is an insult to good faith. I’m only asking if you have any in-universe acknowledgment or implication about how Future Zamasu got the strength you are claiming he has. I know you are satisfied with a clip, but I’m forming my own opinion.

Plus, when it comes to Anime antagonists, their debut fight is ALWAYS very important, as it gives a first general impression of these antagonists and the threat they represent. Black's debut fight involves him completely dominating Trunks, giving us the message that Black is beyond anyone from that timeline. Future Zamasu's debut fight involves him holding his own and forcing SSB Goku to run, giving us the message that Zamasu is confident in his ability to kill Goku and is a noteworthy threat and dangerous ally for Black.

As far as I’ve seen Future Zamasu is only Present Zamasu plus immortality, and only is a threat because he can’t be harmed by anyone besides Zeno.

[SupremeKai25]

It also doesn't explain how Jiren got that strong all on his own, we still have to accept that he is that strong.

I don’t think comparing Jiren and Zamasu is adequate because they are different characters with different motivations and backstories.

Then comparing Future Zamasu with Present Zamasu is also inadequate, since they are also technically different characters

Since Future Zamasu had 20 more years, what he did in those years is unknown but it is noted by Goku that something about him somehow felt different. So it is established that F. Zamasu and P. Zamasu (Goku Black) diverge in some ways that are not related to Immortality (because that statement by Goku was made BEFORE the Story revealed to us that he was Immortal). And besides Immortality is not something you feel just by clashing fists with someone.

Present Zamasu/Goku Black thought he could only get significantly stronger by taking Goku's body, but Future Zamasu was never interested in that and thus we must respect this distinction.

Zamasu in another hand felt powerless when he fought SS2 Goku. This is the kind of strength that was set for him at that point. But instead of training to beat Goku he used shortcuts. So, why should I assume he trained hard during those 20 years without ever knowing Goku? His routine was basically following Gowasu teachings, which had nothing to do with battle oriented training. To be as strong as SSB after 20 years you would have to make contradictory assumptions about Zamasu’s characterization.

Different characters essentially.

Future Zamasu never fought Goku and didn't go through the experiences his Present counterpart went through.

Just like Future Trunks and Present Trunks went through different experiences and had different views of their own strength, with F. Trunks being humble and feeling inadequate and P. Trunks being way more arrogant and confident (due to being raised by Vegeta).

Same thing here with the Zamases. P. Zamasu thought he needed Goku's body to get stronger but as we see from the Future counterpart Zamasu eventually gathered enough power to challenge SSB Saiyan fighters.

I took that as foreshadowing Goku Black’s potential with Rosé. Yet this is only a hypothesis. Zamasu doesn’t have the sense for training that Goku does. Goku usually makes this kind of assumption when he wants to spare his opponents for a next match, like he tried to do with Moro, but it doesn’t mean his opponents will do exactly what Goku wonders.

We already know that Zamasu was a unique case, being a fighting genius and prodigy even amongst the Kais, which is why he got chosen as successor by Gowasu, so this isn't too surprising. Goku's body or not, Zamasu was always extremely talented.

If it was obvious, I wouldn’t be offering you a different perspective and you haven’t provided me any element to doubt my opinion.

Because I don't have any element to counter.

What you are offering me is a baseless interpretation. I look at the scene itself, at the dialogue, and at the way the characters interact, and I don't see any indication that Goku was referring to Zamasu's mental state - and not his power level.

In other words, since I don't understand the point you are trying to make, I don't know how to counter it.

Besides, I didn’t mention mindset, I’m talking about fighting posture.

No originally you said this: "The “something different” Goku noted was Zamasu’s change of approach. He was level-headed and careful the first time, and at that point he lost all composure"

This can indeed be interpreted as mindset don't you think? F. Zamasu was going in with the mindset of getting hit as much as possible to enjoy his Immortality, and being careless, while P. Zamasu had a different mindset since he was still mentally sane and not sadistic/masochist in the slightest.

Very ambiguous wording on your part but I'll roll with it and assume you were referring to their posture.

This version of Zamasu was approaching him too recklessly, while the other one was more careful.

The actual scene is the exact opposite of what you said, or am I misunderstanding something in your argument It is Goku who charged recklessly at Future Zamasu and initiated the fight (as he usually does), while Future Zamasu moved in to fight in response to Goku's charging ahead and engaging him. So the attacker who charged recklessly was Goku, and the defender who retaliated was Future Zamasu.

I’m only asking if you have any in-universe acknowledgment or implication about how Future Zamasu got the strength you are claiming he has.

Episode: 56, literally the first thing Future Zamasu says on-screen:

I thought we had an agreement. Wasn't I supposed to be the one who gets the honor of destroying him [Goku]?

Already right off the bat it's revealed that Black promised F. Zamasu that he'd get the honor of killing Goku. Black discovered the strength of the Saiyan body he stole, and saw Goku's SSB power on Godtube, and he still promised F. Zamasu he could kill Goku, meaning that he was confident Zamasu could succeed. Which means that F. Zamasu simply *has* that power. That we don't know *how* he got it (but we can speculate) doesn't mean that he doesn't *have* that power. You can make the same argument for Jiren, as I was saying earlier...

This is reiterated in ep. 57 where F. Zamasu reminds Black (who interfered in his fight with Goku) of their agreement [that F. Zamasu would get the honor of killing Goku]:

I thought we both agreed Goku would be my prey to hunt.

After which Black, who spectated the fight between Goku and F. Zamasu, doesn't tell Zamasu something like "I misjudged your strength, you're not capable of killing him, let me help", he tells him, and I quote verbatim: "Well I'm afraid this body has a mind of its own and what it wants is him, regrettably I don't think I can resist its pull."

Once again reiterating that Black was confident Zamasu could kill Goku.

Then in ep. 64 Goku Black sends F. Zamasu to kill SSR Trunks, who was able to fight and pressure Black several times (he even defeated him in battle in the previous episode), and thus was also relative to the SSB fighters:

While you are stuck in this stalemate, Zamasu is locating Trunks and the rest of the remaining humans. And torturing them to death!

Which means that Black, who personally fought and felt firsthand the full power of Ikari Trunks (in the previous ep, where he was overwhelmed, but tbf before he got the Scythe power boost), was confident that F. Zamasu would be more than enough to torture Ikari Trunks and the rest of the earthlings.

The only argument you could try to make to counter this is say that Black maybe is just a horrible judge of power level; but I think that Canon portrayal of Zamasu [Goku Black] completely contradicts this, because Zamasu was always praised as a fighting prodigy AND genius; and on top of that Black, having overall the same soul and mind as F. Zamasu, would feel if his counterpart was too weak to actually kill the targets in question. Since it's made abundantly clear throughout the arc that the two Zamases, being the same person, are in completely and perfect synch with each other. But he never raises this concern, and for this reason I think that Black is a very reliable source in gauging F. Zamasu's strength.

Plus earlier in the arc Vegeta prohibited Trunks from fighting Black, sensing that he was too weak (Vegeta and Trunks can't have the same synch P. Zamasu/Black and F. Zamasu have), so to be fair Black would definitely sense if F. Zamasu was too weak to actually kill Goku or kill Trunks and wouldn't trust him to do those things.

In fact come to think of it there's actually no statement of F. Zamasu being weak is there? In the manga of course it is directly stated that Zamasu is weak and even Trunks can beat him (however by Goku who CAN make mistakes, see his opinion of how Broly compares to Beerus); but anyway in the anime there is no statement of any character calling F. Zamasu "weak"; only "careless" and "someone who drops is guard". But not "weak". But of course if you can find a statement then by all means feel free to share it with me, I'd be interested to see it actually.

I can also provide all the battle feats that F. Zamasu has but as you asked only for statements/verbal acknowledgments, these are the main statements (aside from the Goku one which you are trying to disprove) that show us that F. Zamasu has indeed acquired great power compared to his P. counterpart.

To the point that it is Black himself, the P. Zamasu who thought his body was too weak, and took Goku's instead, who was the most confident in F. Zamasu's ability (aside Zamasu himself) to kill SSB-tier fighters, like SSB Goku and Ikari Trunks.

Thus you say that it's improbable that F. Zamasu would acquire such power on his own while his P. counterpart had to steal Goku's body; and yet the P. counterpart (Goku Black) would disagree you, seeing how he thinks that F. Zamasu has the strength to kill SSB Goku.

As far as I’ve seen Future Zamasu is only Present Zamasu

This cannot be because P. Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Goku; while F. Zamasu repeatedly forced the Saiyans to turn SSB just to fight him.

As said many times before, Immortality in itself is also not a power boost, so F. Zamasu is simply that strong on his own, without the magical wish.

[Xeno Goku Black]

This cannot be because P. Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Goku; while F. Zamasu repeatedly forced the Saiyans to turn SSB just to fight him.

That's only because of Goku Black.

Kai's are millions upon millions of years old. Zamasu wouldn't have gone from SSJ2 Tier to SSJB Tier in a mere 17 years which is a blink of an eye for them.

[SupremeKai25]

This cannot be because P. Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Goku; while F. Zamasu repeatedly forced the Saiyans to turn SSB just to fight him.

That's only because of Goku Black.

Incorrect, but I shall go through each of the "solo" fights F. Zamasu had with the Saiyans (as in fights he had without Black's help) and explain why.

Ep. 57: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is standing on top of the building, clearly just spectating)

Goku turns SSB to engage F. Zamasu while Black clearly doesn't interfere in the fight, to the point that his intervention later on catches Goku completely off-guard (because he didn't think he was going to fight Black too; hence he turned SSB meaning to fight F. Zamasu himself). The video and gifs were already posted above so I'll refrain from reposting them.

Ep. 62: SSB Vegeta vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is busy fighting Trunks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKwq0HQt6_o


Towards the middle of the video, Vegeta intercepts F. Zamasu ALREADY in SSB transformation. Towards the end, SSB Vegeta is going to help Trunks AND IS STILL in SSB transformation, meaning that he was fighting F. Zamasu off-screen in that form; and Zamasu appears with no damage on him whatsoever and with a confident look on his face.

You could make the argument that Vegeta somehow tore Zamasu apart off-screen and Zamasu simply regenerated it; but it is unlikely that, in that very brief time where he was fighting SSB Vegeta, he took so much damage to lose body parts, regenerated completely, realized that Vegeta was retreating, and then was able to pursue him.

Ep. 63-64: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is fighting Vegeta on another battlefield)

Goku again turns SSB to engage F. Zamasu:

Ep 63:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qr6qxwOMY

Notice how Goku is unsure if he's going to fight SSR Black or F. Zamasu; and once he is told that he will fight Zamasu, he doesn't use a lower form or at the very least charge down his aura. Meaning that he was planning to use the same state (right down to the charged aura) regardless of whether his opponent was F. Zamasu or Black.

Explanation for the potential anti-feat of Goku hitting Zamasu: he did that while Zamasu was extra-distracted with helping Goku Black, and Goku even acknowledges that Zamasu "was not focusing on him".

Ep 64:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phh5bVmo_hw

And as for the above Goku gets a hit on Zamasu only when he is even more distracted by the rift Black created, which is acknowledged by Goku himself, who notes that Zamasu is "careless". Then he remains in SSB to fight him and towards the end of the video is shown stalemating him.

These are all the completely solo fights F. Zamasu had, without any external help from Black. And in all these fights his opponent (Goku in most of them, but Vegeta in one too) were using SSB against him; and failing to damage him in any significant way (as in for example tearing him apart or destroying large parts of his body; if they were truly so much stronger like you claim, in spite of these examples proving the opposite, they would be able to do that).

In the manga, where F. Zamasu is specifically acknowledged to be weaker even than Trunks, you don't see a Saiyan turning SSB against him, but using weaker forms. Thus, it follows that if the same applied to the anime, the Saiyans Goku and Vegeta would also engage him in a weaker form, as to conserve more chakra to then fight Black; especially since they know that, being Immortal, it's pointless to just lump stronger and stronger attacks on Zamasu, because he'll regenerate through anything.

Kai's are millions upon millions of years old. Zamasu wouldn't have gone from SSJ2 Tier to SSJB Tier in a mere 17 years which is a blink of an eye for them.

This is a weak argument when you consider that mortals like Frieza can surpass in 4 months every bit of training that most Kais get in millions of years.

Plus, like Frieza, Zamasu is also stated to be a prodigy of his species. So, the same rules that apply to other Kais, might not apply to him, due to being a prodigy and natural talent amongst the Kais.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Just curious about something here. In the manga, Vegeta went from below SSJ Goku Black to surpassing SSJR Goku Black during his rematch with him, correct?

Yes and no. While his performance is greatly different, Goku went out of his way to say it was because Vegeta learned the bait and switch technique to conserve stamina. It’s not really suggested that he got stronger in the process. Even before his Rosat training he could still damage Black enough to make him unlock Rosé with his final Zenkai.

Ch. 22, pg. 25.1-3
Context: Goku and Trunks continue to observe Vegeta fight Goku Black
Trunks: “That’s amazing…! How could he possibly…”
Goku: “He’s storing the power of Blue until the right time and lets it explode when he needs it.”
Kaioshin: “Is that the same thing you did back when fighting Hit?”
Goku: “Yeah, but in my case, I could only go as far as making the switch once while Vegeta is able to repeat it over and over again. Furthermore, his power isn’t decreasing. That just shows how hard he’s trained.”

SSJB Vegeta > SSJR Black > SSJ1 Black > Fatigued SSJB Vegeta

[ZombieVito]

This cannot be because P. Zamasu lost to SSJ2 Goku; while F. Zamasu repeatedly forced the Saiyans to turn SSB just to fight him.

That's only because of Goku Black.

Incorrect, but I shall go through each of the "solo" fights F. Zamasu had with the Saiyans (as in fights he had without Black's help) and explain why.

Ep. 57: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is standing on top of the building, clearly just spectating)

Goku turns SSB to engage F. Zamasu while Black clearly doesn't interfere in the fight, to the point that his intervention later on catches Goku completely off-guard (because he didn't think he was going to fight Black too; hence he turned SSB meaning to fight F. Zamasu himself). The video and gifs were already posted above so I'll refrain from reposting them.

Ep. 62: SSB Vegeta vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is busy fighting Trunks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKwq0HQt6_o


Towards the middle of the video, Vegeta intercepts F. Zamasu ALREADY in SSB transformation. Towards the end, SSB Vegeta is going to help Trunks AND IS STILL in SSB transformation, meaning that he was fighting F. Zamasu off-screen in that form; and Zamasu appears with no damage on him whatsoever and with a confident look on his face.

You could make the argument that Vegeta somehow tore Zamasu apart off-screen and Zamasu simply regenerated it; but it is unlikely that, in that very brief time where he was fighting SSB Vegeta, he took so much damage to lose body parts, regenerated completely, realized that Vegeta was retreating, and then was able to pursue him.

Ep. 63-64: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is fighting Vegeta on another battlefield)

Goku again turns SSB to engage F. Zamasu:

Ep 63:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qr6qxwOMY

Notice how Goku is unsure if he's going to fight SSR Black or F. Zamasu; and once he is told that he will fight Zamasu, he doesn't use a lower form or at the very least charge down his aura. Meaning that he was planning to use the same state (right down to the charged aura) regardless of whether his opponent was F. Zamasu or Black.

Explanation for the potential anti-feat of Goku hitting Zamasu: he did that while Zamasu was extra-distracted with helping Goku Black, and Goku even acknowledges that Zamasu "was not focusing on him".

Ep 64:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phh5bVmo_hw

And as for the above Goku gets a hit on Zamasu only when he is even more distracted by the rift Black created, which is acknowledged by Goku himself, who notes that Zamasu is "careless". Then he remains in SSB to fight him and towards the end of the video is shown stalemating him.

These are all the completely solo fights F. Zamasu had, without any external help from Black. And in all these fights his opponent (Goku in most of them, but Vegeta in one too) were using SSB against him; and failing to damage him in any significant way (as in for example tearing him apart or destroying large parts of his body; if they were truly so much stronger like you claim, in spite of these examples proving the opposite, they would be able to do that).

In the manga, where F. Zamasu is specifically acknowledged to be weaker even than Trunks, you don't see a Saiyan turning SSB against him, but using weaker forms. Thus, it follows that if the same applied to the anime, the Saiyans Goku and Vegeta would also engage him in a weaker form, as to conserve more chakra to then fight Black; especially since they know that, being Immortal, it's pointless to just lump stronger and stronger attacks on Zamasu, because he'll regenerate through anything.

Kai's are millions upon millions of years old. Zamasu wouldn't have gone from SSJ2 Tier to SSJB Tier in a mere 17 years which is a blink of an eye for them.

This is a weak argument when you consider that mortals like Frieza can surpass in 4 months every bit of training that most Kais get in millions of years.

Plus, like Frieza, Zamasu is also stated to be a prodigy of his species. So, the same rules that apply to other Kais, might not apply to him, due to being a prodigy and natural talent amongst the Kais.

Blue in the anime has perfect ki control with barely any stamina loss so it makes no sense for Goku to use lower forms. In the manga they have to by necessity.

Freeza never trained in his life. It makes sense for him to grow at the rate he did. We don't know how long Zamasu trained but we don't longer see him training. It's even implied in the manga that he was at his limit of his training.

The argument of Zamasu not being thorn to pieces is weak too. We have multiple examples of severely weaker fighters not having that happen to them when fighting stronger foes.

[SupremeKai25]

Blue in the anime has perfect ki control with barely any stamina loss so it makes no sense for Goku to use lower forms. In the manga they have to by necessity.

This isn't accounting for the fact that if SSB Goku truly were on a completely different level, he'd blow away Zamasu just by punching or kicking him, completely tearing him apart. Which is not happening and never happened aside from that one moment where he severely injured Zamasu's head (a feat that would never be replicated again despite several further fights with F. Zamasu).

Freeza never trained in his life. It makes sense for him to grow at the rate he did. We don't know how long Zamasu trained but we don't longer see him training. It's even implied in the manga that he was at his limit of his training.

Manga is irrelevant to this entire discussion. In the manga F. Zamasu is stated to be weaker than Trunks so there's not much left for discussion.

We never saw Zamasu train but we do know that whatever he achieved in terms of power made Black confident that he could kill 1) SSB Goku and 2) SS Ikari Trunks.

The argument of Zamasu not being thorn to pieces is weak too. We have multiple examples of severely weaker fighters not having that happen to them when fighting stronger foes.

Then list those examples.

Furthermore, I would wager that not many of those "multiple examples" repeatedly fought SSB Goku on their own with similar noteworthy of feats of holding their own against him with no physical damage at all.

It is also not weak in the slightest. For instance, during their first fight, Goku was going in with killing instincts, explicitly vowing to F. Zamasu that he wouldn't get his way, and he DIDN'T know that Zamasu was invincible. So he was effectively going in with a mindset to kill someone who he thought could die.

And yet not only he could never deal any significant damage to Zamasu in that fight, but was even overpowered and forced to run.

[ZombieVito]

Blue in the anime has perfect ki control with barely any stamina loss so it makes no sense for Goku to use lower forms. In the manga they have to by necessity.

This isn't accounting for the fact that if SSB Goku truly were on a completely different level, he'd blow away Zamasu just by punching or kicking him, completely tearing him apart. Which is not happening and never happened aside from that one moment where he severely injured Zamasu's head (a feat that would never be replicated again despite several further fights with F. Zamasu).

Freeza never trained in his life. It makes sense for him to grow at the rate he did. We don't know how long Zamasu trained but we don't longer see him training. It's even implied in the manga that he was at his limit of his training.

Manga is irrelevant to this entire discussion. In the manga F. Zamasu is stated to be weaker than Trunks so there's not much left for discussion.

We never saw Zamasu train but we do know that whatever he achieved in terms of power made Black confident that he could kill 1) SSB Goku and 2) SS Ikari Trunks.

The argument of Zamasu not being thorn to pieces is weak too. We have multiple examples of severely weaker fighters not having that happen to them when fighting stronger foes.

Then list those examples.

Furthermore, I would wager that not many of those "multiple examples" repeatedly fought SSB Goku on their own with similar noteworthy of feats of holding their own against him with no physical damage at all.

It is also not weak in the slightest. For instance, during their first fight, Goku was going in with killing instincts, explicitly vowing to F. Zamasu that he wouldn't get his way, and he DIDN'T know that Zamasu was invincible. So he was effectively going in with a mindset to kill someone who he thought could die.

And yet not only he could never deal any significant damage to Zamasu in that fight, but was even overpowered and forced to run.

You are putting to much into people getting torn away. That rarely happens in the series.

To give one example. The difference between Roshi and Ginyu is bigger than the difference between Blue and SS2 tier and yet Roshi wasn't even knocked out when Ginyu hit him. By your logic, he should have been torn apart.

Again, Black is confident because Zamasu is immortal. Any opponent with the exception of Zeno is going to eventually lose to him.

Goku was never going for the kill in episode 57, that's your own head canon and completely out of character for him. Also, he only ran after getting hit by Black's Kamehameha.

[Goku9001]

Yes and no. While his performance is greatly different, Goku went out of his way to say it was because Vegeta learned the bait and switch technique to conserve stamina. It’s not really suggested that he got stronger in the process. Even before his Rosat training he could still damage Black enough to make him unlock Rosé with his final Zenkai.

Ch. 22, pg. 25.1-3
Context: Goku and Trunks continue to observe Vegeta fight Goku Black
Trunks: “That’s amazing…! How could he possibly…”
Goku: “He’s storing the power of Blue until the right time and lets it explode when he needs it.”
Kaioshin: “Is that the same thing you did back when fighting Hit?”
Goku: “Yeah, but in my case, I could only go as far as making the switch once while Vegeta is able to repeat it over and over again. Furthermore, his power isn’t decreasing. That just shows how hard he’s trained.”

SSJB Vegeta > SSJR Black > SSJ1 Black > Fatigued SSJB Vegeta

I would have to disagree here. Vegeta received a zenkai i.e power boost, which falsely led Goku and Trunks to believe that Vegeta had a chance against SSJ Goku Black. It's only upon Vegeta not faring any better than he did previously i.e SSJ Goku Black having the upper-hand on Vegeta that Goku/Trunks concluded that Vegeta no longer receives zenkais. The context is clearly placing emphasis on Vegeta's power lacking given that an immediate zenkai, which was meant to power him up, didn't change Vegeta's chances at winning. We are also given close-up shots of Goku Black and Vegeta where Goku Black is smiling throughout the exchange whereas Vegeta is clearly in pain. Stamina was never the issue as the context placed behind taking the sensu bean was to provide him a power boost and not simply to restore his stamina.

Vegeta training rigorously in the RoSaT logically did yield a power-boost, that doesn't need to be explicitly stated. It's a natural assumption that the readers can make unless noted otherwise. I mean, isn't that the assumption you are making as to why Vegeta needed the sensu bean? Super Saiyan Blue exhausts a lot of stamina and a sensu bean restores his stamina, therefore the sensu bean was meant to address his stamina issues? It's a reasonable argument, just as reasonable as Vegeta having went from SSJ Goku Black to beyond SSJR Goku Black given that his bursts of SSJB (Post) performed far better against SSJR Goku Black than it did against SSJ Goku Black, despite having his stamina restored, during their first battle.

The reason I mention this is that if the manga proposes the idea of Vegeta receiving a power-boost that exceeds the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue, then what stops SSJ2 Trunks from receiving a power-boost akin to the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Blue in the anime? Toriyama clearly isn't against such a power-boost as long as the story demands it.

[Goku9001]

You are putting to much into people getting torn away. That rarely happens in the series.

To give one example. The difference between Roshi and Ginyu is bigger than the difference between Blue and SS2 tier and yet Roshi wasn't even knocked out when Ginyu hit him. By your logic, he should have been torn apart.

Again, Black is confident because Zamasu is immortal. Any opponent with the exception of Zeno is going to eventually lose to him.

Goku was never going for the kill in episode 57, that's your own head canon and completely out of character for him. Also, he only ran after getting hit by Black's Kamehameha.

Are you insinuating that fighting on par with a bloodlusted opponent on a nearly equal level and on a consistent basis somehow doesn't support the idea that they are nearly equal? How can we ever evaluate a battle and use that as a reference point when we are going to discard character comparisons like that?

[ZombieVito]

You are putting to much into people getting torn away. That rarely happens in the series.

To give one example. The difference between Roshi and Ginyu is bigger than the difference between Blue and SS2 tier and yet Roshi wasn't even knocked out when Ginyu hit him. By your logic, he should have been torn apart.

Again, Black is confident because Zamasu is immortal. Any opponent with the exception of Zeno is going to eventually lose to him.

Goku was never going for the kill in episode 57, that's your own head canon and completely out of character for him. Also, he only ran after getting hit by Black's Kamehameha.

Are you insinuating that fighting on par with a bloodlusted opponent on a nearly equal level and on a consistent basis somehow doesn't support the idea that they are nearly equal? How can we ever evaluate a battle and use that as a reference point when we are going to discard character comparisons like that?

Goku wasn't bloodlusted in episode 57.

[SupremeKai25]

You are putting to much into people getting torn away. That rarely happens in the series.

Because I can't think of times when a severely weaker opponent engaged a severely stronger opponent in PROLONGED FIGHTS MULTIPLE TIMES with his GUARD DOWN in each fight.

And plus we see what happens when one fighter is truly outclassed, see that blue jelly vs. Jiren who was torn apart, see Fused Zamasu vs. Vegito in the manga.

To give one example. The difference between Roshi and Ginyu is bigger than the difference between Blue and SS2 tier and yet Roshi wasn't even knocked out when Ginyu hit him. By your logic, he should have been torn apart.

Let me ask you three questions:

1) Was Roshi fighting Ginyu without any external help from the other Z fighters?

2) Do you think Roshi had his guard up/was careful that time?

3) Did they fight several times or once but for a prolonged time?

Again, Black is confident because Zamasu is immortal. Any opponent with the exception of Zeno is going to eventually lose to him.

Nope, because Immortality doesn't boost your power level as it's not an offensive state. If you are legit fodder, you simply can't kill them because you don't do any damage. Unless you think Garlic Jr. can also kill SSB fighters.

An opponent would die only if they were foolish enough to literally attack the Immortal enemy for years and years to the point of complete exhaustion. If that doesn't happen, then how is a fodder going to kill someone who, according to you, is so significantly stronger?

Another thing: Black sent F. Zamasu after Trunks to TORTURE and kill him. F. Zamasu, even if Immortal, wouldn't be able to torture Trunks if he wasn't stronger than him, as he simply wouldn't have the power to torment for a prolonged amount of time after completely dominating in battle Trunks. So, the fact that Black believed F. Zamasu would be able to torture Trunks, means that he believed F. Zamasu had the power to stomp Ikari Trunks in battle, which would then allow him to take him hostage for torture later.

Goku was never going for the kill in episode 57

Goku explicitly vowed that he would not let Black and Zamasu "get what they wanted" (to purge the Cosmos of all mortals) and charged his aura then charged at F. Zamasu in anger, I'd say his intentions were pretty clear here.

Also, after Trunks stabs Zamasu, Goku asks him if he "finally got him"; meaning that he wanted to kill or at least greatly hurt Zamasu. And any mortal being would likely die after being stabbed in the heart by a sword, Goku not knowing that F. Zamasu was immortal at the time. So he didn't care if Trunks killed Zamasu and actually asked him if he did that, I'd say it's pretty clear that Goku was Bloodlust and had Killing intent in this fight.

and completely out of character for him

Goku killed Golden Frieza and was also willing to finish off Black when he knocked him seemingly unconscious. Not really out of character for him.

Also, he only ran after getting hit by Black's Kamehameha.

Also false. Goku started running when F. Zamasu started using a technique called "Heavenly Arrow", which forced Goku to dodge all incoming blasts. As seen towards the end of the video. Black came in only LATER:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ZGERt2Bvw&t=2s

Tell me, in how many fights was a significantly stronger fighter forced to dodge each blast from a significantly weaker fighter? Wouldn't they just... walk through it if the enemy truly was fodder?

Goku wasn't bloodlusted in episode 57.

I don't think there's ever been a time where Goku has been more bloodlust than in that arc. Even before he learned that Black killed him and his family, what he knew of Black and Zamasu is that they had exterminated countless earthlings, destroyed all cities, and were planning to exterminate all mortals in the Cosmos. Goku never, ever tried to spare these two opponents in that arc. There's not a single time where he maybe thought to himself "hm, maybe I can give them a senzu bean, maybe they can change".

I think Black and Zamasu were the only two villains (along with maybe Cell) whom Goku truly despised and wanted to see dead. Because they were so twisted.

So it's kind of obvious that Goku was going in for the kill, especially when he didn't know yet that F. Zamasu was Immortal; but knew that he was a major threat to all mortals in the Cosmos and to Trunks' world.

[Goku9001]

Goku wasn't bloodlusted in episode 57.

So he was holding back against Goku Black?

[Goku9001]

Again, Black is confident because Zamasu is immortal. Any opponent with the exception of Zeno is going to eventually lose to him.

Nope, because Immortality doesn't boost your power level as it's not an offensive state. If you are legit fodder, you simply can't kill them because you don't do any damage. Unless you think Garlic Jr. can also kill SSB fighters.

An opponent would die only if they were foolish enough to literally attack the Immortal enemy for years and years to the point of complete exhaustion. If that doesn't happen, then how is a fodder going to kill someone who, according to you, is so significantly stronger?

Another thing: Black sent F. Zamasu after Trunks to TORTURE and kill him. F. Zamasu, even if Immortal, wouldn't be able to torture Trunks if he wasn't stronger than him, as he simply wouldn't have the power to torment for a prolonged amount of time after completely dominating in battle Trunks. So, the fact that Black believed F. Zamasu would be able to torture Trunks, means that he believed F. Zamasu had the power to stomp Ikari Trunks in battle, which would then allow him to take him hostage for torture later.

What's interesting is that after Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks all recover and explain the situation to P. Trunks and Bulma, Goku states that Zamasu is a strong enemy in which Vegeta then follows up with "What's more, he's invincible," which already leaves the implication that F. Zamasu is powerful relative to Blue level opponents without immortality. Otherwise, Vegeta wouldn't have included that statement after the fact.

Let's not forget that Zamasu deliberately allowed Trunks to stab him as it clearly zooms into Zamasu's eyes indicating that he witnessed the attack and intentionally allowed Trunks to strike him. What's more is that Trunks expresses disappointment that he gave it his all and was unable to stop Black. Why would Trunks express such disappointment if he was weaker than SSJ3 Goku? Why would the writers go through the trouble of having Trunks learn a lesson of relying on his strength rather than relying on Goku and Vegeta if it amounted to nothing? The narrative is conveying a message here and that message is that Trunks deemed himself powerful enough or close to powerful enough to stop Black even after watching the SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta battle him. Otherwise, Trunks wouldn't have been shocked or disappointed that his efforts were futile.

Therefore, Trunks hitting Zamasu means absolutely nothing and it's hypocritical suggest that it does mean something when you guys are insinuating that Trunks' performance against Goku Black where he parried an attack, traded blows, landed 2 attacks, and deliberately parried a blindside attack from SSJR Goku Black means nothing. I can't be the only one who sees the inconsistency and bias in these arguments here.

[SupremeKai25]

Let's not forget that Zamasu deliberately allowed Trunks to stab him as it clearly zooms into Zamasu's eyes indicating that he witnessed the attack and intentionally allowed Trunks to strike him. What's more is that Trunks expresses disappointment that he gave it his all and was unable to stop Black. Why would Trunks express such disappointment if he was weaker than SSJ3 Goku? Why would the writers go through the trouble of having Trunks learn a lesson of relying on his strength rather than relying on Goku and Vegeta if it amounted to nothing? The narrative is conveying a message here and that message is that Trunks deemed himself powerful enough or close to powerful enough to stop Black even after watching the SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta battle him. Otherwise, Trunks wouldn't have been shocked or disappointed that his efforts were futile.

That's a good argument but I think that feat is incredibly blown out of proportions.

Even without using that argument, we already know from two statements (reported above) that F. Zamasu fights in a careless way and drops his guard every time he is about to be hit by an attack; and we SEE that he gets pleasure from getting hit by attacks, because they remind him of his Immortality.

So in the end that scene happened simply because F. Zamasu was fighting carelessly and/or wanted to get hit by Trunks' sword, so that he could brag about his Immortality and destroy the hope of his enemies. Knowing that his enemy is Immortal, Trunks would lose all hope...

And no one, unless they're crazy, would scale SSB Goku down to Sorbet level even though he got sniped by his attack, so why do some people scale F. Zamasu down to Trunks level just because he got stabbed by him while he was fighting carelessly/without guard up? It's just disingenuous.

Therefore, Trunks hitting Zamasu means absolutely nothing and it's hypocritical suggest that it does mean something when you guys are insinuating that Trunks' performance against Goku Black where he parried an attack, traded blows, landed 2 attacks, and deliberately parried a blindside attack from SSJR Goku Black means nothing. I can't be the only one who sees the inconsistency and bias in these arguments here.

You're not the only one.

I definitely think that F. Zamasu is one of the most underrated characters in Dragon Ball period.

The vast majority of fighters would KILL to have the feats that F. Zamasu has against SSB-tier fighters, over several prolonged fights. And yet these feats are often ignored just because he got stabbed by Trunks once.

Because he is Immortal, people often think that F. Zamasu is just very tanky but not that strong, when that's simply false, when he's seen pressuring and holding his own against SSB Saiyans repeatedly.

I also think that it's disingenuous to say "Oh but Zamasu needed Goku's body to get that strong so how can F. Zamasu get that strong on his own" because in the end Present Zamasu (Goku Black) and Future Zamasu are two different people with their own different life experiences. Just like Present Trunks, who is more aggressive and proud due to Vegeta's influence, and Future Trunks who is way more humble and calm.

Present Zamasu (Black) thought that he could only get that strong by taking Goku's body, but Future Zamasu, who never actually met Goku due to him being dead from the virus, believed that he didn't need Goku's body to achieve his plans, and we need to respect these differences between the two characters.