How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

[Skar]

When I joined this discussion, it wasn't really to point that out. I was simply responding to banned friend saying "I may be nitpicking..." by assuring him that it's all nitpick, so why worry.

I guess it depends how far you go for it to be considered nitpicking. After an action series ends, I've noticed discussions about strength and VS Battles are the longest latest since there might be only so much to be said about the story, themes, and whatnot so there's always some new action series to pit them against. I've never really been into these but I think they're harmless enough since they're usually kept to their own sites or threads. Well aside from the few times they might derail unrelated discussions but maybe those fans aren't aware there are dedicated sites for it.

And what I've been saying this whole time is that I cannot rationally connect that type of discourse with people who, when discussing the franchise as a whole, say "Super is bad because none of it's power scaling makes any sense", which like it or not, I have seen here plenty of times. I think that the way a powerup is handled is distinct from being really angry at the fact that a character has reached a certain strength, because the latter comes with a lack of real regard for whether it makes mechanical or thematic sense for such a thing to occur. You may say it's a minority, you're probably right, but it's a vocal minority, and an annoying one. I do not see the point in conflating that with me seemingly attacking any criticism of Super's power-ups as hypocritical, because I'd then have to attack every power-up in the entire franchise to not be guilty of the exact thing I'm talking about.

I can see how that's annoying but I think it's been over long enough that those types of comments become less frequent. From what I've noticed, casual audiences and people who hate a particular series move on quicker and usually the biggest of fans continue to discuss it a few years later. To general anime fans, it might've been just another nostalgic revival that came and went. I'm not sure when the last time someone gave that kind of an opinion but the forum is slowly going back to the normal and less active than when we had a weekly anime. I think the threads with the most activity are the DBS manga and Official Announcement threads.

The humans with their training surpassed SS3 Gotenks, at least in the anime version.

I think that implication was unintentional. The anime originally had Goku absorb SSJG in base since they were probably adapting it directly from the movie. In the ToP, Goku was using SSJG again which wouldn't be necessary if he still kept its power in base. In the manga, Goku didn't absorb SSJG so his base probably didn't change too much throughout DBS. A Toei producer confirmed in an interview that the humans were still weaker than the SSJ kids so I don't think they were intended to have gotten much stronger from the Buu saga and mainly skill and strategy helped them last longer in the ToP and by avoiding the strongest opponents.

[Shaddy]

Alright, well now we're just gonna be into subjective definitions of things that are or aren't personally a problem to us individually, and I think that argument could go on until the sun blows up.

[super michael]

I think that implication was unintentional. The anime originally had Goku absorb SSJG in base since they were probably adapting it directly from the movie. In the ToP, Goku was using SSJG again which wouldn't be necessary if he still kept its power in base. In the manga, Goku didn't absorb SSJG so his base probably didn't change too much throughout DBS. A Toei producer confirmed in an interview that the humans were still weaker than the SSJ kids so I don't think they were intended to have gotten much stronger from the Buu saga and mainly skill and strategy helped them last longer in the ToP and by avoiding the strongest opponents.

Here in this video we see Gotenks can't do anything to Copy Vegeta who at the time is weaker than ToP Vegeta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL0biGzatWU
Gotenks attacks has no effect on Copy Vegeta, even though he is in base form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEL_Ckp6Akc
Master Roshi can do something to Base Goku who is stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIjXJaAvits
Krillin was able to affect Goku, even going Super Saiyan 1 didn't allow Goku to tank. Krillin was able to push Goku Kamehameha as a Super Saiyan Blue, even if it was for a short time.

So Gotenks attacks couldn't budge or hurt Copy Vegeta in anyway possible, but somehow those humans were able to budge or affect Goku who is stronger in the ToP.

I tried to find the message that the producer wrote that the humans are weaker than Goten and Trunks, but I couldn't find that message. I saw that message a few years ago.

[Mister_Popo]

Powerscaling is not a ruleset on which the creators rely on to hang the broader framework of the story. It's the other way around: the power scaling is a deduction of the story. It is an imaginary set of rules that is actually made up to create a certain logic. Those laws do not actually exist, it is a 'consensus'. It's not the writers' fault if it turns out later during Super that if we apply the same laws of DBZ to Super, we get irregularities. Toriyama does not write on the basis of those laws, he rather writes intuitively. We are in the wrong ourselves if we blame him for a logic that he does not consciously apply in his work.

For me it is especially important within the context of a certain fight, that it is clear what the proportions are of that moment. I have to say that in most battles during Super this was pretty obvious.
What you do have during Super is that the main characters have become remarkably powerful. But there's a reason, we're in the realm of angels and gods, that's many levels above anything we've seen in DBZ.
Still, I think there is usually a good reason why different levels are reached: SSG, Blue, Blue Kaioken, Omen UI, MUI ... The explanation given to the different upgrades makes sense, I think there is enough logic behind it.
Where the shoe pinches sometimes, are the 'power levels' of the other Z-fighters and some antagonists. They seem to grow with Goku and Vegeta and this is not always given a thorough explanation.

Well, to make a long story short, if there is an issue with that 'powerscaling', it does not bother me enough to appreciate the story for what it is worth. If I were to give constructive criticism to DBS, there are other things I think they could do better than the power scaling in the first place.

[Skar]

Alright, well now we're just gonna be into subjective definitions of things that are or aren't personally a problem to us individually, and I think that argument could go on until the sun blows up.

Well I was trying to make you feel better that this vocal minority might be becoming less vocal and a smaller minority .

So Gotenks attacks couldn't budge or hurt Copy Vegeta in anyway possible, but somehow those humans were able to budge or affect Goku who is stronger in the ToP.

I tried to find the message that the producer wrote that the humans are weaker than Goten and Trunks, but I couldn't find that message. I saw that message a few years ago.

I forgot the exact interview but he said that if Toriyama was choosing characters based on battle power then he would've went with the SSJ kids implying they're still stronger than the humans. The way the producer was describing it Toriyama didn't really specify what the humans were going to do in the ToP so Toei came up with most of the battles themselves. I think the last thing the humans did that was directly written by Toriyama was fight the Freeza soldiers in RoF. They were all tired after the fight while a weakened base Gohan wasn't so that lines up with DBZ and what the producer said since the ToP took place barely a year after RoF. Some scenes don't work with this but different writers like how some filler in DBZ might've implied the humans were stronger than in the manga at the time.

[super michael]

Here something Scotty mentioned in DBZ Base Future Gohan > SSJ Future Trunks, which we know SSJ = 50x.

After Future Gohan died, how did Future Trunks in 3 years = Future Gohan? How did Future Trunks make 50x power increase alone without special facilities at all?

The scene I am talking about it before Future Gohan dies. We clearly see Base Future Gohan spar with Future Trunks.

[The Monkey King]

After Future Gohan died, how did Future Trunks in 3 years = Future Gohan? How did Future Trunks make 50x power increase alone without special facilities at all?

Zenkais from the androids toying with him for fun, at least that makes sense to me.

[super michael]

After Future Gohan died, how did Future Trunks in 3 years = Future Gohan? How did Future Trunks make 50x power increase alone without special facilities at all?

Zenkais from the androids toying with him for fun, at least that makes sense to me.

When someone gains Super Saiyan, we have never seen them gain Zenkai again.

Present Vegeta didn't get a zenkai by C18 and Cell beat down.
Ultimate Gohan didn't get a zenkai by Buutenks beat down.
Goku didn't get a Zenkai by Android 19 beat down and Cell/Cell Jr.

[capsulecorp]

Powerscaling is not a ruleset on which the creators rely on to hang the broader framework of the story. It's the other way around: the power scaling is a deduction of the story. It is an imaginary set of rules that is actually made up to create a certain logic. Those laws do not actually exist, it is a 'consensus'. It's not the writers' fault if it turns out later during Super that if we apply the same laws of DBZ to Super, we get irregularities. Toriyama does not write on the basis of those laws, he rather writes intuitively. We are in the wrong ourselves if we blame him for a logic that he does not consciously apply in his work.

well said