A theory regarding the lost Frontier dub

[Gilby1385]

While reading the thread "Are There Any Updates On The Harmony Gold Dub Of Dragon Ball?", I found this interesting comment:

"Zero" and other name changes were apparently suggested by Toei, not Harmony Gold. I think that's one reason a lot of these stuck around with Funi initially (some even stick around to this day, like "Master Roshi", which arguably is a mis-adaptation; should be Master Muten, really); Toei expected name changes, so they gave Funi that list of names, and Funi tried it out with those before deciding to do their own interpretations of the original names.

That got me to thinking... what if the lost Frontier Enterprises dub of "Curse of the Blood Rubies" used the same or similar names to the ones that Harmony Gold used?

If the original English script was also written by Toei themselves, it might even be possible that the script which Frontier would have used became the basis for the script for the Harmony Gold dub, which of course FUNimation utilised for their two English dubs produced in 1994 and 2010.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It will be interesting to see, when and if the Frontier Enterprises dub ever surfaces, how much of it Harmony Gold borrowed from.

I'm starting to wonder whether or not it existed though. It's very strange that this dub was seemingly never mentioned until about 6 years ago, and no one other than Richard Nieskens has come out and claimed to have worked on it, and even he couldn't remember anything about it when asked. He also says it was "Dragon Ball Z" he worked on, which may imply it's a case of the Mandela effect as the timeline wouldn't match up, given he left Frontier before the Z anime was even created by TOEI.

The Harmony Gold dub was lost for a long time, but many fans were able to confirm it's existence having seen it on the very limited number of stations that aired it. The Frontier dub would have had a niche release too, only being available on flights, but it's curious that it took so long for any word on it to leak given how incredibly popular Dragon Ball is.

Don't get me wrong I hope Nieskens wasn't mistaken, I just want more solid proof the Frontier dub was a thing as what we know is very sketchy.

[MasenkoHA]

I don’t see how it’s sketchy. It seems pretty straightforward. It was dubbed for airlines so it’s not like someone could record it from tv ala the Harmony Gold dub.

Then actor calling it Dragon Ball Z just seems to be Mandela Effect Meets Pop Culture Osmosis. America tends to use Dragon Ball Z as a blanket term for the franchise he probably remembers working on Dragon Ball and his brain added the Z because that’s the more popular iteration of the franchise.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

That's quite clever thinking, actually. I'm fascinated by these obscure dubs (especially this one, which we haven't even been aware of for that long). Hope more becomes factually known about it in time.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don’t see how it’s sketchy. It seems pretty straightforward. It was dubbed for airlines so it’s not like someone could record it from tv ala the Harmony Gold dub.

Then actor calling it Dragon Ball Z just seems to be Mandela Effect Meets Pop Culture Osmosis. America tends to use Dragon Ball Z as a blanket term for the franchise he probably remembers working on Dragon Ball and his brain added the Z because that’s the more popular iteration of the franchise.

But how do we know it existed? I know no one could have recorded, but other dubs by Frontier are known about, and apart from Lupin the other anime they dubbed are quite niche. I just find it strange something as popular as Dragon Ball could have fallen into obscurity like that, and for there to not even be rumours for decades or mumblings from flight attendants claiming to have seen it. It may well exist, hell maybe it was recorded but for whatever reason ended up not seeing the light of day ala Ocean Kai but at this point nothing about the Frontier dub is a certainty.

[dragonmagico]

I don’t see how it’s sketchy. It seems pretty straightforward. It was dubbed for airlines so it’s not like someone could record it from tv ala the Harmony Gold dub.

Then actor calling it Dragon Ball Z just seems to be Mandela Effect Meets Pop Culture Osmosis. America tends to use Dragon Ball Z as a blanket term for the franchise he probably remembers working on Dragon Ball and his brain added the Z because that’s the more popular iteration of the franchise.

Yeah, there are still other dubs made for airlines that are lost today, or at most only available if you get a rare Japanese laserdisc release. and well there aint any laserdiscs for dragon ball movie 1. While i doubt it'll ever see the light of day, I do not doubt for a second that it very easily could exist

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

This is the most comprehensive research done on the Frontier dub thus far. It's not much, but it's a start given how little info there is about Frontier Enterprises. Sadly since the company hired a lot of people off the street, those that are still alive didn't remain in the acting business, and seemingly have no ways of being reached. Jeff Manning was the most notable talent in Frontier's productions, so hopefully someone out there has a line of contact to him. Even if he only has a vague memory about the company dubbing Dragon Ball it would be something to corroborate Nieskens' claim.

I concur with the creator of this video's sentiment about establishing this dub's existence as a solid fact as it may be the best that can ever be done, as it's likely lost forever. I have no faith in TOEI to still have a copy considering they don't even care to preserve their own audio masters, so why would they treat a once-off attempt at dubbing Dragon Ball into English any better?

[Gilby1385]

I have no faith in TOEI to still have a copy considering they don't even care to preserve their own audio masters, so why would they treat a once-off attempt at dubbing Dragon Ball into English any better?

You do have a point. I reckon the only place where we'll be able to find this dub would be from an old film reel left lying around in one of the airlines that screened it at least once.

[Gilby1385]

I also have another theory regarding Frontier's association with "Dragon Ball".

While I don't seem to have actually ever seen Richard Nieskens's LinkedIn profile itself (where the info of the Frontier dub itself came from), apparently it doesn't explicitly mention the name of the movie itself, so people assumed it was "Curse of the Blood Rubies" due to the claim that it was produced sometime around 1987. What also makes the "Blood Rubies" claim plausible is that posters and merchandising in Japan referred to the movie as just "Dragon Ball" despite the subtitle being used in the actual film itself (although I admit this may be stretching it a bit).

"Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle" came out the same year Frontier apparently dubbed "Blood Rubies", so what if Frontier dubbed THAT instead (or both movies, even)?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I suppose it's possible Frontier could have dubbed two movies as a feature like Harmony Gold, albeit a different combination because Mystical Adventure hadn't yet been released at that point.

I've noticed there is one interview with Jeff Manning, so DMed the channel to ask if they still have a contact for him, and if so can he confirm whether or not Frontier did dub anything Dragon Ball. Guess we'll find out soon, I'd he remembers anything about it after all this time.

Though Kei seems to be under the impression this dub existed, so I'll give Nieskens the benefit of the doubt and say he's probably not misremembering.

From what I gather in the above interview Frontier's dubs were shown on Japan Airlines flights, so perhaps they have a copy of this dub in their archives somewhere, although like anything else with regards to uncovering this dub it's probably a slim chance at best.

[Gilby1385]

Well, anything's possible. Who knows.

I also have to wonder how much of the dub was cut, if it was even cut at all. Personally, I think it would have been uncut.

[kei17]

I read a book about the career of William Ross in the Japanese film industry. The book consists of his own filmography, the lists of his company's productions, and the interview with William Ross and his wife. Unfortunately, Dragon Ball is not mentioned in it. They did not document a lot of their works, so the listings do not cover all of their productions. Here are the lists from the book:

Anime movie dubs:

Spoiler:

• The Little Prince and the Eight-Headed Dragon
• Puppy Dog Tales of Canterbury (Doggie March)
• Lupin III (The Mystery of Mamo)
• Galaxy Express 999
• Cyborg 009 (Legend of the Super Galaxy)
• Swan Lake (1981)
• Baldios
• Aladdin and the Magic Lamp (1982)
• Captain Harlock in Arcadia (Arcadia of My Youth)
• Dagger of Kamui
• Rain Boy (1989)
• White Lion (Symphonic Poem: Jungle Emperor Leo)
• Voltes V (TV series digest / Released in the Philippines)

Also in the interview they say that they dubbed some TV series such as Golden Bat, Princess Knight, In the Beginning: The Bible Stories, Honeybee Hutch, Mazinger Z, and Voltes V. Ross claims that someone in the US later insisted that he produced the English dub of Princess Knight and tried to steal the credit from Frontier Enterprises.

Movie dubs for airlines (in-flight release date):

Spoiler:

• Samurai Banners (Mar '70)
• Once a Rainy Day (Oct '70)
• Sanjuro (Jan '71)
• Yojimbo (Jun '71)
• Three Faces of Love (Oct '71)
• Rikshaw-man (Feb '72)
• Thru the Days and Months (Apr '72)
• Where Spring Comes Late (Apr '72)
• Adventures of Takla Makan (Oct '72)
• Mr. Radish and Mr. Carrot (Dec '72)
• The Sword and the Flower (Mar '73)
• Twin Sisters of Kyoto (Sep '73)
• The Rising Dragon (Dec '73)
• Alone across the Pacific (May '74)
• Love Me, Love My Zoo (Jun '74)
• Samurai Vigilantes (Jul '74)
• The Rendezvous (Feb '75)
• The Hidden Fortress (Nov '75)
• Friendship (Dec '75)
• Hot Pursuit (Mar '76)
• The Scarlet Bandits (Apr '76)
• The Deadly Swordsman (Jun '76)
• The Yellow Handkerchief (Nov '77)
• Sweet Revenge (Mar '78)
• Mister Greenhorn (Apr '78)
• Lupin III (Mar '79)
• Wonderful World of Music (May '79)
• Golden Partners (Jul '79)
• White Love (Nov '79)
• Heaven Sent (Jan '80)
• A Distant Cry from Spring (Mar '80)
• A Long Way 'Round (Nov '80)
• Tales of Heike (Mar '81)
• A Taste of Life a.k.a. An Autumn Afternoon (Jun '81)
• The Bear Hunter (Jun '82)
• Father's Twilight a.k.a. Equinox Flower (Sep '82)
• Time and Tide (Jun '83)
• Tinsel Town Tune (Sep '83)
• The Hissatsu - Sure Death (Sep '84)
• The Final Take (Nov '86)
• My Beautiful Dozen (Sep '87)
• Princess from the Moon (Jan '88)
• Dun Huang (Mar '88)
• Oracion (Sep '88)
• Strangers in Summer (Nov '88)
• The Political Game (Jul '89)
• Goodbye, Mama (Jul '91)
• The Fishing Nut (Feb '92) - All Nippon Airways
• The Fishing Nut 2 (May '92) - All Nippon Airways
• Pro Golfer Orikin (Dec '92) - All Nippon Airways

The book doesn't say that this list of airline dubs is partial unlike the one of the anime movie dubs above, so their possible dub of Dragon Ball was probably not for airlines or left unreleased for some reason.

There is actually another listing of their dubs of the Otoko wa Tsurai yo series for airlines, but I omit it because it's too lengthy and not really related to the topic.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It's a shame that William Ross only died in 2014, because that was the year before rumours of this dub surfaced. If Frontier did dub Dragon Ball, Ross would probably not only be able to confirm or deny it's existence, but would also likely know a lot about it.

I'm personally leaning towards the possibility that if Frontier dubbed Dragon Ball they may have decided not to show it on flights. I just find it hard to believe this could have slipped under the fandom's radar for nearly 30 years.

Although, having read more about airlines and their use of media I'm starting to think there may still be a chance this dub could be found. Apparently airlines back then used cassettes to play movies, the most common format was Video8, and some popular movies from other airlines can be found on eBay. So there may be a chance, however slim someone on eBay Japan or a flea market somewhere has a copy. Maybe someone who worked for Japan Airlines in the 80s if we could track them down?

Otherwise, I've been told of the actors that worked for Frontier Barry Gjerde could be another possible lead due to his involvement in the Resident Evil series. I've not heard back from the YouTube channel that interviewed Jeff Manning, but maybe if someone has a line of contact to Gjerde we could ask if he remembers Frontier dubbing Dragon Ball?

Hopefully one day this dub will be found. I'd hate to think it ended up in the hands of some hoarder who wants no one else to be able to see it. I spoke to Geekdom recently to tell him about this dub, he seemed intrigued and said he will look into it too.

[Gilby1385]

I have no faith in TOEI to still have a copy considering they don't even care to preserve their own audio masters, so why would they treat a once-off attempt at dubbing Dragon Ball into English any better?

To add to my opinion on your thoughts regarding why Toei would still have a copy of that dub but not their audio masters, funnily enough I did actually think that would have been the case, since that dub would have been stored on film, which cannot be reused, and the original audio masters for the series on tape, which can.

The Harmony Gold dub was also mastered on tape, and a post made to a thread on this site from when the five dubbed episodes were not available in full mentioned Harmony Gold claimed they no longer have the masters, meaning they either got lost or wiped by Harmony Gold themselves, or that Toei wiped them after they were sent to them by Harmony Gold.

But then I realised that while film cannot be wiped, it can be burnt, which was sadly the fate of many films from the very early years of the film industry. Perhaps that's what Toei did to the master of the Frontier dub after it was sent to them. Either way, who knows whether a print of it still exists.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Been thinking lately about what the story could have been surrounding this dubs production and distribution, if it did indeed exist to begin with.

Since we've had a thread asking what the Japanese think about the west's version of Dragon Ball I've considered what if the Frontier dub was only ever circulated in Japan or other Asian countries? Given the fact Japanese fans interested in English Dragon Ball dubs are a minority, and most certainly an even smaller minority in 1987, maybe the Frontier dub was distributed elsewhere like film festivals in Asia?

I'd imagine if the Frontier dub wasn't distributed on flights to America the audience that could have seen it would be even smaller because there would be less incentive for them to learn English. Hypothetically if someone saw this dub, let's say at a film festival in the Philippines with Tagalog subtitles they likely wouldn't have anticipated its significance if they weren't fluent in English and had no idea how big the franchise would become in English-speaking countries. We also know the Philippines is no stranger to English dubs given the Creative Product Corp and Solar Entertainment dubs saw releases there, much of the former is also lost due to it only airing once on RPN9.

Dragon Ball fans in Asian countries also don't appear to be as active on forums like these, which could explain why the Frontier dub has had no online presence for so long.

Sadly, I'm very confident if this dub existed TOEI at some point either before or after Frontier Enterprises was shut in 2000 would have received the masters and destroyed them. It's been said that when TOEI began their Latin Americsn operations in the mid-2000s they not only terminated their contract with the license holder (Cloverway Inc) but ordered them to relinquish the masters of all their shows and movies or dispose of them, which resulted in many Latino dubs being lost (ironically this led to some dubs being distributed via pirated copies), so yeah TOEI clearly doesn't give a danger about foreign dubs once they have made their money from them.

I will continue to research this dub as best I can. Aside from the Ocean dub of Kai it is my holy grail of English Dragon Ball dubs, and the one I'd love to see the most, so hopefully one day it can be found and preserved.