Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

[Lord Beerus]

Frightens me to think that any rational human being would find a person who engages in universal genocide as having a shred of altruism.

Like... what the fuck?

There was this weird yet popular organization from the 1920s called the "National Socialist German Worker's Party"...

I was being facetious.

[Yuji]

Could Zamasu, Pure Boo, and android arc Vegeta ride the kinto'un

Probably not Vegeta, but I could see the other two, or Boo at the very least, as the Kintoun seems to value innocence above all else.

Kuririn is apparently pure of heart because he was able to use the Genkidama even though he failed to ride the Kintoun because his mind is filled with earthly desires. Both Zamasu and Boo are detached from any romantic or sexual desires, whereas Vegeta isn't.

[Lord Beerus]

Could Zamasu, Pure Boo, and android arc Vegeta ride the kinto'un

Probably not Vegeta, but I could see the other two, or Boo at the very least, as the Kintoun seems to value innocence above all else.

There is nothing innocent about genocide.

[Yuji]

Could Zamasu, Pure Boo, and android arc Vegeta ride the kinto'un

Probably not Vegeta, but I could see the other two, or Boo at the very least, as the Kintoun seems to value innocence above all else.

There is nothing innocent about genocide.

Missed the second part of the post where I explained I was referring to sexual innocence?

[SupremeKai25]

Actually I think "Innocence" describes Majin Buu perfectly.

Majin Buu (Kid Buu) is "innocent" in the sense that it's like a mindless puppy with no brain who just destroys things because he finds it funny. Now obviously he's pure evil but at the same time he's like a rabid beast, whereas Super Buu behaved like an actual human and was far more conniving, devious, cunning, etc.

And would you look at that, one of the connotation of the word "Innocence" is "lack of guile or corruption; purity."

So, since the Canonical Story already confirmed that Zamasu also has purity of heart, we can indeed conclude that there is some kind of innocence to Zamasu as well. For all his twisted crimes, in the end he was doing what he thought was right for the Cosmos. As OP put it, he believed that what he was doing was "correct" and "just".

Zamasu is not like Hitler, a monster who knew that what he was doing was messed up, but he didn't care and just wanted to lure people to his side. Zamasu doesn't mask anything, he genuinely thinks that he's doing the right thing, and while we as viewers obviously realize he's in the wrong, HE DOESN'T, and that's what makes him "pure of heart" in the eyes of the Story.

And obviously this must be reiterated, Purity = Innocence =/= Good, but hopefully it's already been made clear that this topic is beyond such a generic and childish Good and Evil/Black and White perspective.

[Lord Beerus]

Probably not Vegeta, but I could see the other two, or Boo at the very least, as the Kintoun seems to value innocence above all else.

There is nothing innocent about genocide.

Missed the second part of the post where I explained I was referring to sexual innocence?

How is sexual innocence the determining factor? Especially since Goku can still ride the Kintoun despite it made apparent he is more knowledgeable of sex than he lets off.

[Yuji]

There is nothing innocent about genocide.

Missed the second part of the post where I explained I was referring to sexual innocence?

How is sexual innocence the determining factor? Especially since Goku can still ride the Kintoun despite it made apparent he is more knowledgeable of sex than he lets off.

Kintoun clearly has a bias against those with sexual desires. Goku is asexual.

[PurestEvil]

Missed the second part of the post where I explained I was referring to sexual innocence?

How is sexual innocence the determining factor? Especially since Goku can still ride the Kintoun despite it made apparent he is more knowledgeable of sex than he lets off.

Kintoun clearly has a bias against those with sexual desires. Goku is asexual.

Is Gohan ace, as well? I wouldn't be sure about it.

[BeaBumby]

very cool ace representation in db

[Yuji]

How is sexual innocence the determining factor? Especially since Goku can still ride the Kintoun despite it made apparent he is more knowledgeable of sex than he lets off.

Kintoun clearly has a bias against those with sexual desires. Goku is asexual.

Is Gohan ace, as well? I wouldn't be sure about it.

Gohan is more romantic than Goku but he's not very sexually interested or aware either.

[PurestEvil]

very cool ace representation in db

If only there was good representation for the other letters in the initialism...

[goku the krump dancer]

Off hand tidbits by one off video games should be taken with the tiniest grain of salt.

That said, Zamasu had a clear disdain for all mortal life, his heart stopped being pure the moment he killed that alien with no hesitation and realized he liked it. Plus as “Goku Black” his energy was so negative that he almost gave Whis a contact high. He also took pleasure in torturing people.

Boo may be innocent in that he didn’t know that killing was bad he clearly took a lot of pleasure in doing it. Even after learning that killing was wrong, he stopped for a little but went right back to it after the evil Boo took over. “Pure” Boo was so psychotic that he had to taint his very essence just for someone to be able to anything resembling a conversation with him.

Kintoun favors Goku because even in his most selfish moments he never truly desires to hurt people for personal gain and ego, Krillin wasn’t a murderer but he was definitely ego driven. The only time Goku truly showed no mercy was against Tambourine and even then he was blinded by rage.

[Yuji]

Goku is very ego driven, especially later on in the series. Pure-hearted, as Toriyama explained in an interview, refers to his single-minded pursuit of self-improvement even though he may cause bad things as a result of that. A single-minded pursuit of a goal is something that a lot of characters in the series share regardless of their moral orientation.

The concept of pure-hearted in the series seems to change depending on the circumstance (who's pure heart for the Kintoun isn't necessarily who's pure of heart for the Genkidama, as with the Kuririn example) but that one trait remains the best description we've got from the man himself.

[SupremeKai25]

You know it's ironic OP, you say that "despite his goals" he is pure of heart, but what I would say is that he is pure of heart precisely because of his goals.

You can call it pure evil, but he was single-minded in his desire to see all mortals eradicated. So much so that he transcended his own body and became his own manifestation of Justice and Order, to see his goal accomplished.

Whereas all other villains usually have multiple things going on in their mind, Zamasu was driven, obsessed, and consumed by the desire to eradicate mortals and bring about the "utopia" he desired.

So it is precisely because of his goals that he is pure of heart

[WittyUsername]

Zamasu doesn’t exhibit any actual redeeming qualities, so if you want to consider him pure of heart, then the term has no meaning. Zamasu more or less comes off as a deranged narcissist who wants to reshape the multiverse in his image. Sure, he views what he does as justice, but it seems pretty apparent that he’s just trying to satisfy his own evil desires. He even murders his fellow gods to ensure that they wouldn’t be able to stop him.

[goku the krump dancer]

Goku is very ego driven, especially later on in the series. Pure-hearted, as Toriyama explained in an interview, refers to his single-minded pursuit of self-improvement even though he may cause bad things as a result of that. A single-minded pursuit of a goal is something that a lot of characters in the series share regardless of their moral orientation.

The concept of pure-hearted in the series seems to change depending on the circumstance (who's pure heart for the Kintoun isn't necessarily who's pure of heart for the Genkidama, as with the Kuririn example) but that one trait remains the best description we've got from the man himself.

Well having an ego in and of itself isn’t a bad thing, by it’s nature it’s tied to the level of respect a person has for himself. It’s when people over indulge in their own ego is when it becomes a negative and while yes Goku can get cocky at times, his ego doesn’t cloud his emotions.

The mindset of being fixated on a single goal seems more like a conviction than something that’s related to having a “pure heart”. Being obsessed with being the best at your craft doesn’t make a person good or bad, how they treat others dictates that. Goku loves the art of self improvement through fighting, he’s highly competitive almost to a flaw BUT he’d also give you the clothes off his back, he’d get into a blood war with you, win and then offer his hand to help you up. Goku doesn’t fight to make his opponents feel bad, that was largely Vegeta’s MO and many of Goku’s other enemy’s turned rival just to a lesser degree.

Vegeta, Freeza and Zamasu have a need to crush people under their heel and force them to sing their praises because they feel like they’re better than everyone else and deserve it. Goku wants people to sing his praises to confirm to him that he’s worked hard to achieve what he has.

[ABED]

Vegeta, Freeza and Zamasu have a need to crush people under their heel and force them to sing their praises because they feel like they’re better than everyone else and deserve it. Goku wants people to sing his praises to confirm to him that he’s worked hard to achieve what he has.

When did Goku ever want anyone to sing his praises? He doesn't seem to care. All he cares about is getting better as an end in itself. He doesn't care about external validation. Vegeta, Freeza, and Zamasu want people to know they're better than them.

[Yuji]

Goku definitely cares a little bit about external validation or else he wouldn't like tournaments so much. He may not care about the broader public but having some grand authority declaring him the strongest is something he would enjoy. He seems to prefer fighting people in a tournament setting above all else.

[LoganForkHands73]

IIRC, didn't the scene of Zamasu's tea representing his supposed purity of heart end with the tea becoming cloudy and impure underneath a superficially perfect coat? The fact that Gowasu still drinks it and considers it pure kinda embodies their whole relationship and his blindness to his pupil's corruption.

That said, I think the discussions about which characters are pure are interesting. As we see with Kuririn, it seems that someone's purity is very much a state of mind that can be changed and nobody has to be born perfect to be considered pure. Kuririn went from a pervy, cheating coward to an intelligent, courageous hero. There are still times when he doubts himself and acts cowardly though, just as Goku has very occasional pervy, selfish moments yet is still pure. Zamasu's pure qualities include his absolute dedication to his cause that he believes is justice and his willingness to do anything to achieve his goals, no matter how abhorrent. I think lacking self-awareness also plays into it, which definitely applies to Goku, Pure Buu and Zamasu. So that might give him the semblance of purity. However, his laundry list of flaws that include falseness, envy, resentment, sadism, narcissism, racism and moments of self-doubt all probably weigh against him.

As much as Vegeta bragged about being pure -- pure EEEEVIL -- I doubt that he could ride Kinto'un based on that. Vegeta is an incredibly insecure, corruptible person with no strong convictions about anything besides proving himself to others, which he fails at constantly.

[SupremeKai25]

IIRC, didn't the scene of Zamasu's tea representing his supposed purity of heart end with the tea becoming cloudy and impure underneath a superficially perfect coat? The fact that Gowasu still drinks it and considers it pure kinda embodies their whole relationship and his blindness to his pupil's corruption.

The tea becomes normal again precisely after Zamasu declares (for the first time) that all mortals are evil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWVmscH ... JackSpicer

The beginning of this scene shows that the tea is twisted and murky, because Zamasu is currently conflicted, he feels hesitation/fear, he is clouded by doubt, hence why he asks questions to Gowasu (to try and remove those doubts) -> he is not pure of heart.

Midway through the scene, as he is giving his speech, the tea is no longer twisted and becomes clear again -> Zamasu has reattained purity of heart, with it comes the realization he was looking for.

He has purity of heart now because he has removed all doubts from his head and he no longer feels hesitation. This is the moment when Zamasu finally gives into his darker desires and decides that all mortals are evil.

But what some people here don't understand is that we must distinguish between "purity of heart" and "good"; Zamasu is obviously evil and he did evil things, but because he had no doubt that his path was righteous, his heart is considered pure. Pure evil, if you want, but still pure and not clouded by doubt.

After this scene, Gowasu deludes himself into thinking that Zamasu understood his mistakes, he trusts him again, because he saw that the tea had become clear again. But Gowasu made the same mistake of this forum: Zamasu's heart was indeed pure again, but for all the wrong reasons.

The tea here is the key, the tea is a reflection of the heart after all