Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

[capsulecorp]

Nowhere is it said that the Shinjin (Core people) are mortals and need to "become Kais" in order to attain Godhood. This is just headcanon.

Shinjin (Core people) are the truly divine species of the DB verse and they are born as Deities, then some of them can go on to become Kais, Grand Kais, Supreme Kais, etc. or simply Attendants to these Kais.

The Kais performing a job doesn't lessen their status as Gods in the slightest.

The point isn't that performing a job lessens their status. It's the job that CONFERS the status. If Beerus did manage to convince Goku or Vegeta to take over as god of destruction, he would no longer be a god.

The core people are an interesting case because there does seem to be this tradition of only allowing them to become Kais. However, there's no reason to think that that needs to be the case, or if its just a matter of tradition in the same way many religions don't allow women to be priests.

Gods are superior to mortals because they're Gods, it's that simple. There's really no need to dwell on this any further. It's literally in the definition of the word "God" that they are superior.

Concretely in the DB verse, the Gods are entrusted by Grand Zeno with the duty of overseeing the universes and mortal affairs, making them superior. Strength has nothing to do with this.

I think we'll probably have to end this here because I don't really see much of an argument here, it feels like a reductio ad absurdum. For what it's worth, I suggest thinking about exactly how at odds what you just said is with the entirety of the Dragon Ball story and the life path of Goku.

[LoganForkHands73]

Right. As I said above, in the Dragon Universe it's best to think of "god" as a type of job. Kami and later Piccolo become gods when they assume the position of guardian of earth. Like mortals, there are gods of all power levels, and all manners of integrity. Champa is a pretty powerful scumbag. Kami was a weak but kind and selfless individual. Jiren is an immensely powerful jerk. And so on. The entire point of Zamasu's delusion is that earning a job title or stealing a body does NOT necessarily place you in a position to rule over others and decide their fates. There's a parallel here with "becoming strong". Goku knows that merely being more powerful than others does not mean he should be their ruler.

Spot on, man. It helps that Dragon Ball is very much about individuals and man-vs-man conflicts. Good guys, bad guys, dumb guys, strong guys. They're all just people and nobody can tar them all with the same brush. Zamasu's views are so painfully black-and-white and unnuanced that he eventually concludes that not only are all mortals evil, all other gods must be too since they enabled mortals to exist. His inability to reconcile anything that doesn't fit his world views leads him into an inescapable pit of insanity. Pretty sure Gowasu even says as much. No matter how many try to paint Goku as an immoral villain for being a simple flawed person, at least he never tries to commit genocide for the bantz or use his powers for personal gain.

About mortals becoming Kais, the manga adds that tidbit of Trunks unconsciously learning Kibito's healing ability simply by being a Kaioshin apprentice briefly, so that may set a precedent of mortals being able to become full Kaioshin.

They couldn't do anything to Zamasu and had to be bailed out by Grand Zeno, another God.

At the end of the arc, the Destroyer God Beerus literally tells them that they have become too reliant on the Gods helping and bailing them out of dangerous situations.

Goku could've easily smashed Zamasu into a fine green paste. It's only because Zamasu uses Goku's body combined with Potara, immortality, time travel and a bunch of other hax that he manages to stand a chance.

Beerus's words are completely hollow because without the Z-Gang's intervention, he would've been screwed just like everyone else. The real answer is that mortals and gods should work together. Belmod and the Pride Troopers are firm allies, so their universe is one of the highest rated.

[capsulecorp]

Spot on, man. It helps that Dragon Ball is very much about individuals and man-vs-man conflicts. Good guys, bad guys, dumb guys, strong guys. They're all just people and nobody can tar them all with the same brush. Zamasu's views are so painfully black-and-white and unnuanced that he eventually concludes that not only are all mortals evil, all other gods must be too since they enabled mortals to exist. His inability to reconcile anything that doesn't fit his world views leads him into an inescapable pit of insanity. Pretty sure Gowasu even says as much. No matter how many try to paint Goku as an immoral villain for being a simple flawed person, at least he never tries to commit genocide for the bantz or use his powers for personal gain.

About mortals becoming Kais, the manga adds that tidbit of Trunks unconsciously learning Kibito's healing ability simply by being a Kaioshin apprentice briefly, so that may set a precedent of mortals being able to become full Kaioshin.

Oh geez, that's such an interesting point about Trunks and it fits perfectly with the themes of the arc. Good stuff. I think sometimes we underappreciate the attention to detail that goes into the thematic aspects of DBS, and this is a perfect example. Incidentally, I think the reason it feels so important to correct some of the thinking around Zamasu is... the idea that "actually Zamasu was right, gods ARE superior" is so thematically at odds with the entirety of Dragon Ball that it honestly shouldn't be entertained.

I've talked about Zamasu's madness elsewhere on this site but yeah, good point there as well. His views are irrational and wrong, and that's why he eventually succumbs to such demented insanity. I've been asked "why does it matter that Zamasu is wrong"... and, well, that's one big reason.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku could've easily smashed Zamasu into a fine green paste. It's only because Zamasu uses Goku's body combined with Potara, immortality, time travel and a bunch of other hax that he manages to stand a chance.

Beerus's words are completely hollow because without the Z-Gang's intervention, he would've been screwed just like everyone else. The real answer is that mortals and gods should work together. Belmod and the Pride Troopers are firm allies, so their universe is one of the highest rated.

Not really. In fact, if we were to consider that plot point from BoG anime arc where Goku incorporated God power into his Base and Saiyan forms, then Present Zamasu would have easily destroyed Goku if he never got God ki. Since he briefly matched Post-BoG SS2 Goku.

So it's actually the opposite. If Goku didn't have God ki, Zamasu would have easily smashed him into a fine bloody paste.

[Aim]

Because that was the point ?

No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise.

This feels like nitpicking. Yes, rape is without any doubts evil. But Zamasu wasn't out to punish JUST rapists. Otherwise we'd support him 100%.

But so is killing? Some carnivores kill in order to survive. So is killing evil and if yes to which extent?

This is why we don't have only ONE person decide what is absolutely evil and absolutely good, in general (and if you think you'd be that one person then you truly are a narcissist) . Because I see it's misunderstood here.

Again - was Light also wrong in his intentions VS actions?

Well, when carnivores kill I don’t think they derive pleasure from killing, I don’t even think they understand fully what they are doing. Like when a male lion and subordinate female lions kills the alpha competitions cubs, I don’t think they do think with malice in mind, it’s like, a program, just their brains working and nothing else going through it. It’s different if they were like humans and actually had our ability to differentiate between actions.

This is why I think Zamasu could have been handled far better, imagine having a Zamasu go back in time and not just witness barbarians fighting, but he goes to check out Son Goku’s time not fully convinced yet, and he sees the RR trying to essentially rape Bulma, or if you wanna go deeper, have him witness the Lady Red story. His conclusions could then be more nuanced as he reckons that killing humans is a way to be rid of evil, but also be rid of suffering, and have him not enjoy doing it.

With Light, as soon as he started to think about killing people just for stealing, that’s when he started to go really wrong. He’d go around killing people that robbed banks IIRC completely ignoring what’s leading them to commit crimes and tackling that instead.

[Aim]

Pretty much 90% of the villains really.

You can even fit Cell in there, since he wanted to exterminate all those he considered below his "perfection"... so pretty much everyone.

It very much IS about scale of ambitions, otherwise you can compare most villains to Hitler and that doesn't narrow it down at all.

In fact, come to think of it, I do not know a major Dragon Ball villain who can't be compared to Hitler in one way or another, since they all have the power to easily annihilate entire cities/continents and thus easily commit genocide.

In the end all villains in Dragon Ball are driven by petty/mortal desires, Zamasu here is the exception, he is the only villain who seeks more than just that. To ascend and become the ruler of the entire Cosmos, which is an ambition that no other villain has in DB (except for Frieza, briefly, in the ToP arc, when he wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to take control of the Gods, but this plotline went nowhere...).

This is wrong, or at least missing the nuance that is the entire point of the Hitler comparison. Cell wanted a fight because he was bored, Frieza takes over planets for profit, Buu was a child that was raised by maniacs. Only Zamasu has a (perverse) theory of racial superiority. He believes mortals should be exterminated because they are genetically inferior.

Actually, Pure Boo is actually a natural force that has been around since time immemorial.

[capsulecorp]

Actually, Pure Boo is actually a natural force that has been around since time immemorial.

mentally, though, he's a mere babe

[Aim]

You're joking, right?

I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods.

You’re forgetting that mortals can become gods, it’s not genetic (I don’t think anyway). All in all they are essentially upper level mortals with higher responsibility. Even Whis has a home planet.

[SupremeKai25]

You're joking, right?

I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods.

You’re forgetting that mortals can become gods, it’s not genetic (I don’t think anyway). All in all they are essentially upper level mortals with higher responsibility. Even Whis has a home planet.

Yes, and when they do, they get a special kind of energy which is known as "God Ki", which normally can't be sensed by mortals (unless this has been retconned).

This would imply genetics are involved, wouldn't you agree

And while it is true that mortals can become Destroyer Gods, this does not seem to be the case for the Kais.

All Kais we have seen come from the Shinjin/Core World species, with no exception. And so it seems that this species can indeed be classified as "Divine" in nature, since only they are shown to become Gods of Creation.

And while in the manga Trunks was shown to be training in the arts of the Kais, I don't believe it was ever specified that he was training to replace Shin (which would seem very unlikely, since Shin is still so young, why would he already be thinking of a successor). So while mortals can potentially become "attendants" like Kibito, only the Shinjin are allowed to actually become Gods of Creation.

[LoganForkHands73]

Goku could've easily smashed Zamasu into a fine green paste. It's only because Zamasu uses Goku's body combined with Potara, immortality, time travel and a bunch of other hax that he manages to stand a chance.

Beerus's words are completely hollow because without the Z-Gang's intervention, he would've been screwed just like everyone else. The real answer is that mortals and gods should work together. Belmod and the Pride Troopers are firm allies, so their universe is one of the highest rated.

Not really. In fact, if we were to consider that plot point from BoG anime arc where Goku incorporated God power into his Base and Saiyan forms, then Present Zamasu would have easily destroyed Goku if he never got God ki. Since he briefly matched Post-BoG SS2 Goku.

So it's actually the opposite. If Goku didn't have God ki, Zamasu would have easily smashed him into a fine bloody paste.

Whis declares Goku to be a god after he first gains divine ki, but for the rest of the series, Goku still identifies as a mortal first and foremost, and Zamasu regards him as one. I guess you could say there are some huge ironies there. The point is that both mortals and gods are capable of growth and change, and at the end of the day, there's not much separating gods from mortals besides an arbitrary title. Like with Zamasu, at what point does he actually become Universe 10's Kaioshin? When he puts on the Potara with or without Gowasu's blessing? When he kills and usurps Gowasu? Does he ever truly become one, or is it just a meaningless title at the end of the day?

Goku incorporates god ki with some help from his friends, meanwhile Zamasu resorts to stealing Goku's mortal body under the belief that he could reap the rewards of Goku's decades of training and combat experience. He acknowledged that Goku's body was the ultimate well of power, firmly implying that his natural Kaioshin body had long since hit its limits. This isn't even getting into characters like Gohan, Broly, Kale and Jiren, who have no known access to divine ki yet still manage to surpass gods through normal training and freakish genetic gifts.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku could've easily smashed Zamasu into a fine green paste. It's only because Zamasu uses Goku's body combined with Potara, immortality, time travel and a bunch of other hax that he manages to stand a chance.

Beerus's words are completely hollow because without the Z-Gang's intervention, he would've been screwed just like everyone else. The real answer is that mortals and gods should work together. Belmod and the Pride Troopers are firm allies, so their universe is one of the highest rated.

Not really. In fact, if we were to consider that plot point from BoG anime arc where Goku incorporated God power into his Base and Saiyan forms, then Present Zamasu would have easily destroyed Goku if he never got God ki. Since he briefly matched Post-BoG SS2 Goku.

So it's actually the opposite. If Goku didn't have God ki, Zamasu would have easily smashed him into a fine bloody paste.

Whis declares Goku to be a god after he first gains divine ki, but for the rest of the series, Goku still identifies as a mortal first and foremost, and Zamasu regards him as one. I guess you could say there are some huge ironies there. The point is that both mortals and gods are capable of growth and change, and at the end of the day, there's not much separating gods from mortals besides an arbitrary title. Like with Zamasu, at what point does he actually become Universe 10's Kaioshin? When he puts on the Potara with or without Gowasu's blessing? When he kills and usurps Gowasu? Does he ever truly become one, or is it just a meaningless title at the end of the day?

Goku incorporates god ki with some help from his friends, meanwhile Zamasu resorts to stealing Goku's mortal body under the belief that he could reap the rewards of Goku's decades of training and combat experience. He acknowledged that Goku's body was the ultimate well of power, firmly implying that his natural Kaioshin body had long since hit its limits. This isn't even getting into characters like Gohan, Broly, Kale and Jiren, who have no known access to divine ki yet still manage to surpass gods through normal training and freakish genetic gifts.

Yet in the end it's the Gods (Kais) who created the Saiyans.

Since they are the Gods of Creation, responsible for nurturing life across the Cosmos, they have created the Saiyans and all other mortal species.

Indeed, that's why Goku Black said at one point that the Saiyan bodies are a "gift from the Gods". Because the Kais are indeed their Creators.

And that is also why Zamasu believes the Gods fundamentally failed, since they created a species they could not control (the Saiyans).

So here we see that the Supreme Kais basically play the same role as the "Christian God", since they are the progenitors of all mortals. They are, after all, the Gods of Creation. All mortals were created by them. The Saiyans were also created by them, and so why exactly are mortals (creations) comparable to the Kais (creators)

[Hulk10]

Not really. In fact, if we were to consider that plot point from BoG anime arc where Goku incorporated God power into his Base and Saiyan forms, then Present Zamasu would have easily destroyed Goku if he never got God ki. Since he briefly matched Post-BoG SS2 Goku.

So it's actually the opposite. If Goku didn't have God ki, Zamasu would have easily smashed him into a fine bloody paste.

Whis declares Goku to be a god after he first gains divine ki, but for the rest of the series, Goku still identifies as a mortal first and foremost, and Zamasu regards him as one. I guess you could say there are some huge ironies there. The point is that both mortals and gods are capable of growth and change, and at the end of the day, there's not much separating gods from mortals besides an arbitrary title. Like with Zamasu, at what point does he actually become Universe 10's Kaioshin? When he puts on the Potara with or without Gowasu's blessing? When he kills and usurps Gowasu? Does he ever truly become one, or is it just a meaningless title at the end of the day?

Goku incorporates god ki with some help from his friends, meanwhile Zamasu resorts to stealing Goku's mortal body under the belief that he could reap the rewards of Goku's decades of training and combat experience. He acknowledged that Goku's body was the ultimate well of power, firmly implying that his natural Kaioshin body had long since hit its limits. This isn't even getting into characters like Gohan, Broly, Kale and Jiren, who have no known access to divine ki yet still manage to surpass gods through normal training and freakish genetic gifts.

Yet in the end it's the Gods (Kais) who created the Saiyans.

Since they are the Gods of Creation, responsible for nurturing life across the Cosmos, they have created the Saiyans and all other mortal species.

Indeed, that's why Goku Black said at one point that the Saiyan bodies are a "gift from the Gods". Because the Kais are indeed their Creators.

And that is also why Zamasu believes the Gods fundamentally failed, since they created a species they could not control (the Saiyans).

So here we see that the Supreme Kais basically play the same role as the "Christian God", since they are the progenitors of all mortals. They are, after all, the Gods of Creation. All mortals were created by them. The Saiyans were also created by them, and so why exactly are mortals (creations) comparable to the Kais (creators)

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

[SupremeKai25]

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

That they provided the basis is enough.

So who is truly responsible for "Saiyans evolving and constantly reaching new levels of power"? The Saiyans who just follow their instincts or the Kais who actually created their bodies, potential, etc.?

And so it is pretty easy to see why Zamasu would take the body of a mortal, despite being a God and hating mortals. He sees it as taking back the gifts of the Gods, what the Gods made. Since the Gods created the saiyans.

And that is why, after Vegeta gives him his melodramatic speech about Goku, he tells him that he is "arrogant", to think that the "Saiyans built that strength on their own", because their bodies "are a gift from the Gods".

[Koitsukai]

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

That they provided the basis is enough.

So who is truly responsible for "Saiyans evolving and constantly reaching new levels of power"? The Saiyans who just follow their instincts or the Kais who actually created their bodies, potential, etc.?

Um... what? the saiyans, of course, they are the ones putting all the work, lmao.

[SupremeKai25]

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

That they provided the basis is enough.

So who is truly responsible for "Saiyans evolving and constantly reaching new levels of power"? The Saiyans who just follow their instincts or the Kais who actually created their bodies, potential, etc.?

Um... what? the saiyans, of course, they are the ones putting all the work, lmao.

I'm not sure what's funny about what I said or why you would make fun of anything I've ever said. Please consider the fact that the Saiyans are born lucky. Kefla literally says at one point "hurray for being born a Saiyan". I'm sure Tien or Krillin would have loved to be born as Saiyans, so that after decades of training they don't remain fodder level. "They get so strong because they work hard and train a lot" only paints half the picture, because I have no doubt that Tien also works hard and trains a lot but he will never reach those levels

[Koitsukai]

That they provided the basis is enough.

So who is truly responsible for "Saiyans evolving and constantly reaching new levels of power"? The Saiyans who just follow their instincts or the Kais who actually created their bodies, potential, etc.?

Um... what? the saiyans, of course, they are the ones putting all the work, lmao.

I'm not sure what's funny or why you would make fun of anything I've ever written. Please consider the fact that the Saiyans are born lucky. Kefla literally says at one point "hurray for being born a Saiyan". I'm sure Tien or Krillin would have loved to be born as Saiyans, so that after decades of training they don't remain fodder level

Because it's funny to pretend there's no merit in the saiyans growing stronger as if you actually knew every detail of how life is created in the DB verse(or in real life!), concluding it's the kais that should be applaud for it and not those who spent decades of their lives training non stop.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

[SupremeKai25]

Um... what? the saiyans, of course, they are the ones putting all the work, lmao.

I'm not sure what's funny or why you would make fun of anything I've ever written. Please consider the fact that the Saiyans are born lucky. Kefla literally says at one point "hurray for being born a Saiyan". I'm sure Tien or Krillin would have loved to be born as Saiyans, so that after decades of training they don't remain fodder level

Because it's funny to pretend there's no merit in the saiyans growing stronger as if you actually knew every detail of how life is created in the DB verse(or in real life!), concluding it's the kais that should be applaud for it and not those who spent decades of their lives training non stop.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

Never said that but okay. I didn't say the Saiyans can't be applauded of some things, I said that only applauding them is painting only half the picture.

Yes, Goku got very strong because he worked and trained hard, would he have gotten that strong if he had earthling genes instead of Saiyan genes? No. And since we know that it's the Supreme Kais who created mortal lives and it's explicitly stated by Zamasu that they created all mortals including the Saiyans...

And Yes it's the same thing in real life by the way. It's all about luck. If you're lucky you're born in a rich family without any mental impairment, if you're unlucky you're not even born because something goes wrong during the pregnancy. Similarly, in the DB verse, if you're lucky you're born a Saiyan (hence why Kefla said "hurray for being born a Saiyan!"), if you're unlucky you're born as one of those countless fodder species. So plz don't tell me Goku got that strong only because he trains so hard and he works so hard and he's so dedicated, because if he was born in the wrong species he'd be fodder like Tien, no matter how many hours he pours into his training.

The comparison with real life that you brought up doesn't make sense because in real life we don't know who created us, we can only guess and speculate. While in DB verse we factually know that the Supreme Kais are the Creator Gods who created mortals.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

We don't need to see it. We are already told by the Authorial verbatim that the Gods of Creation (Kais) created and gave intellect to the mortals and that their bodies (genes and Zenkais included) were gifted to them by the Gods. This is directly stated by Zamasu, who was a Supreme Kai.

[Skar]

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

I think that's how it is. The series didn't really go into much detail about the Kais updated role that involves creating life. I think it was only in recent interview that mention it but not how it's done. The Kais and Kaioshin aren't omnipotent gods that existed since the beginning and are born from a tree so they might also have a natural origin involving evolution. There has only been one Kaioshin in U7 for five million years and he was pretty bad at his job yet all the various races we've seen in the series came to exist.

[Koitsukai]

I'm not sure what's funny or why you would make fun of anything I've ever written. Please consider the fact that the Saiyans are born lucky. Kefla literally says at one point "hurray for being born a Saiyan". I'm sure Tien or Krillin would have loved to be born as Saiyans, so that after decades of training they don't remain fodder level

Because it's funny to pretend there's no merit in the saiyans growing stronger as if you actually knew every detail of how life is created in the DB verse(or in real life!), concluding it's the kais that should be applaud for it and not those who spent decades of their lives training non stop.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

Never said that but okay. I didn't say the Saiyans can't be applauded of some things, I said that only applauding them is painting only half the picture.

Yes, Goku got very strong because he worked and trained hard, would he have gotten that strong if he had earthling genes instead of Saiyan genes? No. And since we know that it's the Supreme Kais who created mortal lives and it's explicitly stated by Zamasu that they created all mortals including the Saiyans...

And Yes it's the same thing in real life by the way. It's all about luck. If you're lucky you're born in a rich family without any mental impairment, if you're unlucky you're not even born because something goes wrong during the pregnancy. Similarly, in the DB verse, if you're lucky you're born a Saiyan (hence why Kefla said "hurray for being born a Saiyan!"), if you're unlucky you're born as one of those countless fodder species. So plz don't tell me Goku got that strong only because he trains so hard and he works so hard and he's so dedicated, because if he was born in the wrong species he'd be fodder like Tien, no matter how many hours he pours into his training.

The comparison with real life that you brought up doesn't make sense because in real life we don't know who created us, we can only guess and speculate. While in DB verse we factually know that the Supreme Kais are the Creator Gods who created mortals.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

We don't need to see it. We are already told by the Authorial verbatim that the Gods of Creation (Kais) created and gave intellect to the mortals and that their bodies (genes and Zenkais included) were gifted to them by the Gods. This is directly stated by Zamasu, who was a Supreme Kai.

They create planets and life on them, life then flourishes on its own like Gowasu implied with the Babari race. Anything else added, like saying they particularly created their bodies and potential, or how a certain race is created is headcanon.

[SupremeKai25]

Because it's funny to pretend there's no merit in the saiyans growing stronger as if you actually knew every detail of how life is created in the DB verse(or in real life!), concluding it's the kais that should be applaud for it and not those who spent decades of their lives training non stop.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

Never said that but okay. I didn't say the Saiyans can't be applauded of some things, I said that only applauding them is painting only half the picture.

Yes, Goku got very strong because he worked and trained hard, would he have gotten that strong if he had earthling genes instead of Saiyan genes? No. And since we know that it's the Supreme Kais who created mortal lives and it's explicitly stated by Zamasu that they created all mortals including the Saiyans...

And Yes it's the same thing in real life by the way. It's all about luck. If you're lucky you're born in a rich family without any mental impairment, if you're unlucky you're not even born because something goes wrong during the pregnancy. Similarly, in the DB verse, if you're lucky you're born a Saiyan (hence why Kefla said "hurray for being born a Saiyan!"), if you're unlucky you're born as one of those countless fodder species. So plz don't tell me Goku got that strong only because he trains so hard and he works so hard and he's so dedicated, because if he was born in the wrong species he'd be fodder like Tien, no matter how many hours he pours into his training.

The comparison with real life that you brought up doesn't make sense because in real life we don't know who created us, we can only guess and speculate. While in DB verse we factually know that the Supreme Kais are the Creator Gods who created mortals.

Until we see saiyans, or any other species for that matter, being meticulously engineered like the Powerpuff Girls, the merit is of the creature growing stronger, not their 'parents'.

We don't need to see it. We are already told by the Authorial verbatim that the Gods of Creation (Kais) created and gave intellect to the mortals and that their bodies (genes and Zenkais included) were gifted to them by the Gods. This is directly stated by Zamasu, who was a Supreme Kai.

They create planets and life on them, life then flourishes on its own like Gowasu implied with the Babari race. Anything else added, like saying they particularly created their bodies and potential, or how a certain race is created is headcanon.

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

So actually the story directly confirms via the Supreme Kai Zamasu, that the Supreme Kais create the bodies of the Gods and give them intellect. I might even look for ulterior evidence when I have some more free time.

Anyway, I have not used headcanon once, what I said is backed by the source material and, since I described the scenes I was talking about, you can check for yourself.

The bottom line here is that mortals owe their most basic and useful quality to the Gods of Creation: their intellect.

It's a shame that Goku and co. Never thanked Shin and Gowasu for giving them a body and a functioning (most of the time) brain