Transformations that can be considered "empowered" base forms.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

This is something I've been wondering about for a couple of years.

1) Ever since Goku and Gohan exited the RoSaT to fight the Cell games, their SS1 forms became their base forms in a pragmatic sense. For whatever reason, this was sort of tossed to the side during the Buu saga, and basically Hakai'd during Super.
Remember, Mastered SS1 had the calm round eyes with the light blonde hair, but by Super, it had reverted back to its Grade 1 look.

Heck, I rewatched Super Broly about a week or so ago and there was that one scene where Whis asked why Goku wanted to get stronger and he was like "there's a lot of strong guys in other universes" and gets "excited" thinking about them and just goes Super Saiyan. That actually makes less sense the more I think about it in pertinence to the idea of the form being mastered.

What gives?

2) Ultimate Gohan. Seriously, I don't think the writers know what the form is. Is it a transformation or a new base form? The idea is to bring out the latent potential of a figher, so can you even stack the Super Saiyan multiplier on top of it? It would make sense if the answer is no, but I feel more and more people are saying otherwise.

3) Super Saiyan God. Blue existing kind of implies that God is supposed to be another base form. Goku and Vegeta worked to internalize the God ki power in their base forms. The form appeared again in the Future Trunks arc in the manga and ToP in the anime, which makes its status a little fuzzy. I've stated my view that this form's multiplier lowers as you master God ki in your base form.

This is personally my favourite form, so I'm biased and I'm going to say no, but can/should this form be rendered obsolete, and by extension, the original SS1 as well.

4) Ikari. We only see Broly use it, but the concept behind this form should make it so that any Saiyajin can. We also see Broly transform to SS1 while in this form so it should be a 500x multiplier, this does all but confirm that this is another glorified base form.

And yes, this form is a stealth ingenius way to make SS4 canon.

5) Migatte no Gokui and Wagamama no Gokui. Angels are always in the Ultra Instinct state, and I would assume it's the same with Ultra Ego for the G.O.D's as well. And I also believe it's stated for UI, it's possible to master it to the point where you no longer need the transformation.

[Grimlock]

2) Ultimate Gohan. (...) Seriously, I don't think the writers know what the form is. Is it a transformation or a new base form?

It has always been a transformation for Toei, ever since Movie 13.

The manga never had Gohan powering up to it, so it seems it considers Ultimate a permanent state.

(...) so can you even stack the Super Saiyan multiplier on top of it?

I don't think so, probably not. The series never showed one transformation on top of another, not when it comes to Saiyans (or half-Saiyans) transformations, anyway.

It would make sense if the answer is no, but I feel more and more people are saying otherwise.

Ask those people to provide a source.

3) Super Saiyan God. (...) can/should this form be rendered obsolete, and by extension, the original SS1 as well.

Most certainly. There is absolutely no reason Super Saiyan God should still be used after you establish that the characters can absorb its power.

And yes, Super Saiyan should also disappear completely. In favor of Super Saiyan 2 (which has no major drawbacks) to become their main/basic transformation.

4) Ikari. (...) We also see Broly transform to SS1 while in this form so it should be a 500x multiplier, this does all but confirm that this is another glorified base form.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he goes from Rage to Super Saiyan, he doesn't stack one transformation on top of one another.

And yes, this form is a stealth ingenius way to make SS4 canon.

What's that even supposed to mean?

[WittyUsername]

I just want to point out that for some inexplicable reason, the anime version of the Tournament of Power treats Freeza’s 100% powerup as its own transformation, even though it serves zero purpose in the story, and he doesn’t even use it to fight. Seriously, why did they do that? Why does Freeza even still have that? I assumed that whole idea was rendered obsolete after Freeza started training. Did Toei just want to give a shout out to the video games?

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

It has always been a transformation for Toei, ever since Movie 13.

The manga never had Gohan powering up to it, so it seems it considers Ultimate a permanent state.

It's been a while, but I remember Gohan did power up to it buy transforming into an SS or doing a similar powerup. Was that Z only?

I don't think so, probably not. The series never showed one transformation on top of another, not when it comes to Saiyans (or half-Saiyans) transformations, anyway.

Yeah, and that my view is Ultimate draws out the SS multiplier to your base form, so even if you turn into it, it wouldn't power you up, you get nice gold hair though.

But I feel as if they could always retcon that with an asspull.

Ask those people to provide a source.

They literally said it's just a new base form, and every other new base form, you could stack SS on top. Their answer directly inspired me to make this thread tbh.

Most certainly. There is absolutely no reason Super Saiyan God should still be used after you establish that the characters can absorb its power.

And yes, Super Saiyan should also disappear completely. In favor of Super Saiyan 2 (which has no major drawbacks) to become their main/basic transformation.

I was thinking SS1 disappearing in place of SSB, in support of us agreeing that SSG should disappear (despite it being my favourite form) and just be the new base.

I did not have SS2 in mind at all, and your point is interesting, because Toriyama did once say that SS2/3 shouldn't be used anymore because they're exaggerated versions of SS1. We don't know if it's possible to master it like how SS1 was mastered pre-Cell games, but we don't see it suffer major onscreen drawbacks unlike SS3.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he goes from Rage to Super Saiyan, he doesn't stack one transformation on top of one another.

To be fair, you could probably argue either way, but when he transforms he becomes even more wrathful than he was in his Ikari state and iirc he loses his pupils, so my view is that the transformation is stacked.

What's that even supposed to mean?

Exactly what I said. Look at the colour of their eyes.

I just want to point out that for some inexplicable reason, the anime version of the Tournament of Power treats Freeza’s 100% powerup as its own transformation, even though it serves zero purpose in the story, and he doesn’t even use it to fight. Seriously, why did they do that? Why does Freeza even still have that? I assumed that whole idea was rendered obsolete after Freeza started training. Did Toei just want to give a shout out to the video games?

Well, the muscle buff thing is something everyone can do, but yeah it is weird now that you brought it up.

Does Frost even get stronger from that? I mean, unlike Freeza, he has went through that disgusting phenomenon known as training.

[LoganForkHands73]

It's a topic that really interests me as well. I think Toriyama has the right idea that for true strength, a character doesn't need to keep powering up beyond their limits all the time, they need to be able to naturalise their power-ups into their everyday lives. Not yet being acclimatised to new power-ups is a classic Achille's Heel. You could say Kaioken also fits the theme somewhat, as Yamcha and the others couldn't tell if Goku was using it or not against Freeza (but that beat only really works in a black-and-white manga).

Re: Super Saiyan Grade 4. I personally never saw this as a permanent change, more of a temporary training regimen to master the form, though I agree it definitely fits the theme here. The later lack of angry eyes doesn't necessarily mean Goku and Gohan lost their mastery, as their eyes turn angular during battles against Cell and later enemies, and later Gohan drops back down to black-haired base form after his victory. That said, Goten gets rounded eyes when relaxed as a Super Saiyan, hinting that it's very natural to him.

Re: Gohan's Ultimate form. On the one hand, being a potential unlock thing heavily implies permanence and the manga never explicitly has him leave this state after he gains it, since he keeps the angular eyes all the way to the finale. However, Elder Kaioshin's comment about Gohan needing to charge his ki exactly like Super Saiyan muddled things, and the Super anime takes that very literally. In all three Super continuities, Gohan loses his grip on it through lack of training, hinting that Gohan still needs to maintain it mentally and physically. That's in keeping with Dragon Ball's overall philosophy of hard work and commitment leading to success. The manga continues the idea that Gohan can keep it indefinitely so long as he stays on top of his training -- he mentions wanting to "perfect himself as a human" rather than pursuing Super Saiyan forms. He still goes Super Saiyan in the new movie trailer though.

Re: Super Saiyan God... I don't even wanna touch this anymore The situation with it being a base form or not is even more confusing than Ultimate Gohan. Another example here could be Completed Super Saiyan Blue from the manga.

Re: Ikari. They never hint that it's anything but a transformation for Broly, though it does resemble his base form and Super Saiyan can be stacked on top. Perhaps in the next movie, he'll learn to control himself in this state like Kale in her berserk forms? Hard to say as yet.

Re: Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. Yep you're right, the goal is to maintain these forms permanently without outwardly transforming. The manga confirmed my pet theory that the silver-haired form was a sorta "container" for the actual technique. The explanation made perfect sense to me -- Goku's muscles, reflexes and divine power aren't quite attuned enough for him to be in a UI state all the time. For now, he needs to rely on transformations to shortcut his way to that level.

Something I can definitely appreciate about Super is how it's tried to continue this theme, which was arguably incomplete by the end of the original manga. Elder Kaioshin calls Super Saiyan a "depraved" form, yet it still gets the job done while his Ultimate unlock isn't much different. Ultra Instinct feels like a response to that.

[Grimlock]

It's been a while, but I remember Gohan did power up to it buy transforming into an SS or doing a similar powerup. Was that Z only?

The power up Gohan did in front of Old Kaioshin was a casual power up. At any rate, this will depend on how you want to interpret that moment.

Yeah, and that my view is Ultimate draws out the SS multiplier to your base form, so even if you turn into it, it wouldn't power you up, you get nice gold hair though.

Eh, I don't know how that would work.

From a general point of view, that would imply Ultimate works similar to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, it's Ultimate with the power of Super Saiyan. First, it hasn't been established yet that Super Saiyan can have its power absorbed (like Super Saiyan God). The only difference is that while we don't know if Super Saiyan's multiplier still applies for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, you say it does for Ultimate in this scenario.

Second, since it may be a permanent state in the manga continuity, that would imply Gohan is always in Super Saiyan. Which means either Super Saiyan 2 is locked (because one can't stack one transformation on top of another) or, if it's still possible to transform somehow, then Super Saiyan 2 would be above that.

Third, if Ultimate is to draw out all of one's power, why would it have Super Saiyan multiplier? If anything, it should have Super Saiyan 2 multiplier (in Gohan's case, as it is his strongest form), shouldn't it?

Also, this raises one question: would Super Saiyan 2 be used in conjunction with "Ultimate with the power of Super Saiyan" or would Gohan cease that form in order to access Super Saiyan 2?

They literally said it's just a new base form, and every other new base form, you could stack SS on top. Their answer directly inspired me to make this thread tbh.

"Base form" is not a form per se, that is, not a transformation. So you can't "stack a transformation on top of base form". Whenever characters transform, they are no longer in their base forms.

We can't and never will reach a consensus about "new base form". The series treats this in a very contradictory way. Ultimate can either be a transformation or a permanent base form. Kind of the similar for Saiyan beyond God, it could be a permanent base form or it could work as an "empowered" base form whenever Goku and Vegeta want access god power their in base forms. It depends on which continuity you follow, and again, how you interpret stuff.

I did not have SS2 in mind at all, and your point is interesting, because Toriyama did once say that SS2/3 shouldn't be used anymore because they're exaggerated versions of SS1.

Toriyama also said we wouldn't see Super Saiyan God again after Goku absorbed its power, yet here we are. That "excuse" or whatever that is to not use Super Saiyan 2 is moronic to say the least.

Exactly what I said. Look at the colour of their eyes.

Well, if I look at the color of the hair of Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta and Super Saiyan God... Anyway, be that as it may, it's not that there's a canon, so I really don't understand the point.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

Eh, I don't know how that would work.

From a general point of view, that would imply Ultimate works similar to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, it's Ultimate with the power of Super Saiyan. First, it hasn't been established yet that Super Saiyan can have its power absorbed (like Super Saiyan God). The only difference is that while we don't know if Super Saiyan's multiplier still applies for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, you say it does for Ultimate in this scenario.

Second, since it may be a permanent state in the manga continuity, that would imply Gohan is always in Super Saiyan. Which means either Super Saiyan 2 is locked (because one can't stack one transformation on top of another) or, if it's still possible to transform somehow, then Super Saiyan 2 would be above that.

Third, if Ultimate is to draw out all of one's power, why would it have Super Saiyan multiplier? If anything, it should have Super Saiyan 2 multiplier (in Gohan's case, as it is his strongest form), shouldn't it?

Also, this raises one question: would Super Saiyan 2 be used in conjunction with "Ultimate with the power of Super Saiyan" or would Gohan cease that form in order to access Super Saiyan 2?

Maybe I wasn't clear, but when I said "draw out SS power", I meant it more generally, not SS1 specifically.

It was stated SS3 is every last drop of power a Saiyan can have. This would mean that the Ultimate form is at least a 400x multiplier on a Saiyan.

Toriyama also said we wouldn't see Super Saiyan God again after Goku absorbed its power, yet here we are. That "excuse" or whatever that is to not use Super Saiyan 2 is moronic to say the least.

So what's your argument on using SS2? Do you have a source that says it's better than SS1? Because I don't see it despite 100x being a nice neat number.

Well, if I look at the color of the hair of Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta and Super Saiyan God... Anyway, be that as it may, it's not that there's a canon, so I really don't understand the point.

It's just a funny observation I made, if you don't see it, it's whatever.

And yes, if we take "direct Toriyama involvement" as the highest level of canon, then DBS Broly is actually more canon than both the Super anime and manga.

[Grimlock]

It was stated SS3 is every last drop of power a Saiyan can have. This would mean that the Ultimate form is at least a 400x multiplier on a Saiyan.

You're assuming Ultimate is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, but we don't have a way to confirm that.

Yes, Ultimate Gohan was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Majin Buu saga, but one's power is never set in stone. Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Movie 14 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, for example. What will determine this is the power (level) one has in base form.

So what's your argument on using SS2? Do you have a source that says it's better than SS1? Because I don't see it despite 100x being a nice neat number.

If you know that Super Saiyan 2 is better than Super Saiyan and still don't see why characters should be using it, then I don't think you understand the series. Maybe rewatch the anime or reread the manga, because that's my source, the series itself says so.

And yes, if we take "direct Toriyama involvement" as the highest level of canon, then DBS Broly is actually more canon than both the Super anime and manga.

That's a big "if" that not everyone seems willing to agree.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

You're assuming Ultimate is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, but we don't have a way to confirm that.

Yes, Ultimate Gohan was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Majin Buu saga, but one's power is never set in stone. Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Movie 14 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, for example. What will determine this is the power (level) one has in base form.

Movie 14 isn't canon.

If you know that Super Saiyan 2 is better than Super Saiyan and still don't see why characters should be using it, then I don't think you understand the series. Maybe rewatch the anime or reread the manga, because that's my source, the series itself says so.

Oh you mean you don't have a source.

Ok then, until you get me one, I'm not convinced SS2 is overall better than SS1.

That's a big "if" that not everyone seems willing to agree.

That's actually the most objective and least controversial way to say what's canon. And no, even I don't agree with it on the strictest sense, but that doesn't make it not so.