Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

[Aim]

Hi, okay, so I’ve recently seen some pics for the characters and such in the new movie, however, something caught my eye, Gohan.

I think it’s clear Gohan will play the main role, but what really got me thinking was looking at his designs, he has a base form with the standard “Son family” eyes, then in his Ultimate picture he has “Super Saiyan” eyes, interesting. As far as I recall, Potential Unleashed was a permanent state, or so we thought. I don’t think it’s explicitly stated that it couldn’t be “lost” or “transformed back into”, though with Toriyama’s art it seems that Gohan did lose the form sometime before RoF, as his eyes are standard. It’s different here because we see a standard Gohan, Super Saiyan, then his Ultimate form which goes as far as to spike up his hair, which was unclear whether that was a side effect of Potential Unleashed or just an art change.



Dunno, think it’s interesting, love the purple gi on Gohan. Thoughts?

[Grimlock]

No because that hasn't happened in the manga continuity yet. We still haven't seen Gohan transforming into Ultimate, even by Toyotaro and his manga. So Ultimate being a permanent state seems to still be a fact in the manga, for now at least.

And no because Toei has always treated Ultimate as a transformation in the anime and movie continuities. Ever since he got it, we see Gohan transforming into it in Movie 13, Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super.

What seems to be happening is that Toriyama is willing to fully acknowledge Toei's approach, which isn't necessarily a "retcon". As you pointed out, no clear clarification was provided if it was permanent state, or if it could be lost and transformed back into or something.

[Desassina]

Ultimate Gohan was as permanent as Vegetto used to be. It's just something left up in the air which fans clinged to for as long as there was time to discuss before the update. A clash of ideas took place, some tears were shed, but in the end: Ultimate is not permanent. Even then in the Boo arc, after Gohan put himself in that state, his eyes were back to normal before contributing to the Genki-dama.

[MasenkoHA]

Was it ever said it couldn’t be lost? Ultimate Gohan was always just a fan nickname for his power up. Seemed like Old Kaioshin just said he wouldn’t need to transform into Super Saiyan anymore because it would be redundant. Since he slacked off he got weaker and needed to transform ton Super Saiyan again.

[Aim]

Was it ever said it couldn’t be lost? Ultimate Gohan was always just a fan nickname for his power up. Seemed like Old Kaioshin just said he wouldn’t need to transform into Super Saiyan anymore because it would be redundant. Since he slacked off he got weaker and needed to transform ton Super Saiyan again.

I don’t think it’s a nickname IIRC, pretty sure it was Mystic that was a fan name.

Ultimate Gohan was as permanent as Vegetto used to be. It's just something left up in the air which fans clinged to for as long as there was time to discuss before the update. A clash of ideas took place, some tears were shed, but in the end: Ultimate is not permanent. Even then in the Boo arc, after Gohan put himself in that state, his eyes were back to normal before contributing to the Genki-dama.

I’ve looked through and I don’t see that, are you sure? His eyes are the same, they are closed in.

No because that hasn't happened in the manga continuity yet. We still haven't seen Gohan transforming into Ultimate, even by Toyotaro and his manga. So Ultimate being a permanent state seems to still be a fact in the manga, for now at least.

And no because Toei has always treated Ultimate as a transformation in the anime and movie continuities. Ever since he got it, we see Gohan transforming into it in Movie 13, Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super.

What seems to be happening is that Toriyama is willing to fully acknowledge Toei's approach, which isn't necessarily a "retcon". As you pointed out, no clear clarification was provided if it was permanent state, or if it could be lost and transformed back into or something.

I think it’s safe to say we have Toriyama’s Super, Toyotaro’s Super, and Toei’s Super, I don’t think because it’s not in the manga currently that it’s not that way specifically. After all, in Toriyama’s RoF design sheets it’s clear he’s not in the state anymore, so unless that was a design error or deliberate choice, we don’t know.

My head cannon is when Gohan doesn’t train, he loses it, the way I see it Potential Unleashed just brings the user up to their maximum if they had trained, but not using it will cause them to get weaker naturally. This means to me that the power can still be tapped back into to bring the user back up to the state where it’s permanent if they keep training on top of it. It’s never made sense to me why Ultimate Gohan’s Super Saiyan form was useless, I always thought there should be some kind of multiplier for Super Saiyan as it’s clearly a biological change that’s intended to increase the users stats.

[MasenkoHA]

When was he called Ultimate Gohan?

[Desassina]

Ultimate Gohan was as permanent as Vegetto used to be. It's just something left up in the air which fans clinged to for as long as there was time to discuss before the update. A clash of ideas took place, some tears were shed, but in the end: Ultimate is not permanent. Even then in the Boo arc, after Gohan put himself in that state, his eyes were back to normal before contributing to the Genki-dama.

I’ve looked through and I don’t see that, are you sure? His eyes are the same, they are closed in.

It's before the Genki-dama, after Boo's defeat, and 10 years later too. Here's one example:

[TheGreatness25]

When was he called Ultimate Gohan?

I can't trace it back any further than Dragon Ball Z 2 / Budokai 2. That's the first time I ever saw that. Before that, fans called it "mystic," but I airways tried to be more descriptive with it since as far as I know, it was never officially named.

It always bugged me that Gohan's eyes change, but I think it's pretty clear (despite the two instances above) that God eyes changed. Even 10 years later, when Gohan was just casually walking around the Tenkaichi Budokai grounds, his eyes were... shaded? Connected? Whatever you want to call it.

I like that his eyes are back to that Son family style; not a fan of the hair. Seems way too unkempt for Gohan.

[Desassina]

His eyes were casual beneath those lenses 10 years later. Perhaps you wanted to say that they were not angular at all times.

Spoiler:

[TheGreatness25]

His eyes were casual beneath those lenses 10 years later. Perhaps you wanted to say that they were not angular at all times.

Spoiler:

Bah, it's so hard to tell. Going through.

This is Gohan being casual after the Boo fight:



Looks like his eyes have changed. But I never realized how few panels Gohan appears in aftet the Boo fight. I know that in the anime and in Super, his eyes stay "connected" (for lack of a better term).

[Grimlock]

It’s never made sense to me why Ultimate Gohan’s Super Saiyan form was useless,

If Ultimate is a transformation, then Gohan can't use Super Saiyan on top of it.

When was he called Ultimate Gohan?

In Dragon Ball Supplemental Daizenshuu: TV Animation Part 3, where this image comes from. As per Kanzenshuu, released in 1996.

All Spike games (Budokai Tenkaichi, Ultimate Tenkaichi, Raging Blast, Zenkai Battle and etc) call it as such. A toy calls it as such.

By my recollection, this material for Movie 2 is the fourth time "Ultimate" is being used officially.

[WittyUsername]

Everything in Dragon Ball is treated as a transformation at this point. I don’t know who’s more to blame for that between Toei or Bandai, but that’s how things are.

[Zephyr]

Can't forget that Gohan transformed into it his first time using it.

[DanielSSJ]

The modern material has been pretty consistent about treating "Ultimate Gohan" as a transformation that Gohan powers up into like a Super Saiyan form (at least in the anime; in the DBS manga, it seems like Old Kaioshin's power-up is just a permanent upgrade to his base form like it seemed to be in the original story), but they've never seemed to be able to decide whether base Gohan has the normal Son Family eyes or the fully outlined post-power up eyes. He has the former in the Resurrection F movie/arc, but the latter throughout the rest of Super.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

While I've never really liked the idea that "Ultimate Gohan" is a distinct transformation (kinda goes against Old Kaioshin's "Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]..." line, if you ask me), I will say that I'll take that over Gohan having the fully outlined "Ultimate" eyes on a permanent basis. That design is a massive visual downgrade from Gohan's regular appearance, and it kinda just looks like ass half the time, if you ask me.

[Desassina]

If we don't treat it like a transformation, but a state that he put himself into, then it's without changing form, because his eyes express only intent, otherwise give us a sequence of Super Saiyan into Ultimate. I can imagine the movie going with Gohan powering up SS2 to its max before Ultimate clears the aura and sparks to leave him without color. The sequence of events is more telling than an isolated shot. It reminds me of when people had trouble figuring out when Goku gained control of God-like power without transforming: it was either when he powered up in base and his following transformation was Blue like Resurrection of F or when Goku Black got a few zenkais in Super Saiyan form before Rosé in the manga.

[Saiya6Cit]

Excuse me please for not quoting but to the user that pointed out: if ultimate is a transformation then he wont be able to go super saiyan on top of it... but we have golden ozaru for example and that is cannon...oh it is GT nevermind...


As i have said earlier I dont follow super but in my humble opinion this seems like a character re-design since people had been complaining all over the internet on how gohan's character peaked in cell's saga and then became lame, specially when talking about clothes design, as someone was already kind enough to post images of both examples the one with the sports pants and the professor look.

please remember i was lost into the disney fandom till 2020 when I came back to DB and I did not live trough the DB Super hype as it was being aired, I just state what I've seen.

[Grimlock]

if ultimate is a transformation then he wont be able to go super saiyan on top of it... but we have golden ozaru for example

Golden Oozaru is not an example of anything, as far as I'm concerned. The idea that it is "Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan" is not confirmed. We don't know what it is.

If you want to go ahead and assume Golden Oozaru is "Oozaru + Super Saiyan", probably based solely on the color of the fur that matches the color of the hair of Super Saiyan, go for it. Maybe we can infer that. But we don't know for sure if that's what's supposed to be. Heck, I don't remember anything even trying to explain what that form is.

And even then, even if we do know what it is, we are talking about an entirely different transformation. One that maybe doesn't operate on the same "rules" as the Super Saiyan forms. We know that god Ki can be used in conjunction with the Super Saiyan transformations, but we can't say for sure if it also applies to Super Saiyan 4, for instance. Firstly because we don't know what Super Saiyan 4 truly is. Secondly, whatever it is, and despite its name, it is not a Super Saiyan form (rather, it is a form that comes from the "Oozaru branch").

Anyway, what I'm saying is that just because a logic can be applied to a form, it doesn't necessarily mean it can be applied to every other (unrelated) form. Besides that, Toei has been very clear on the matter. Gohan went from base, to Super Saiyan 2, to Ultimate. Even though it's not a natural progression (as Ultimate obviously isn't a Super Saiyan transformation), this shows that Toei sees Ultimate as being the next step of increased power for Gohan, very similar to Super Saiyan 3 being the next step after Super Saiyan 2. A combination of Super Saiyan and Ultimate, if it were possible, would already be at least hinted at this point, probably in the same vein as a combination of, let's say, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 would be (in the sense of "Super Saiyan 2 with the power (absorbed) of Super Saiyan 3", like it is the case with the god forms).

Sure, there's nothing officially stating "Ultimate can't be combined with Super Saiyan" but given the circumstances and the way things have been depicted throughout the decades, the most logical conclusion is that it's not possible (until it happens). Super Saiyan can only be combined with techniques and other types of Ki, as far as we all can tell. And then there's the detail that two transformations have never been used simultaneously in the series so far (besides Golden Oozaru, if you want to count that).


Nevermind this whole text if you follow the manga continuity. Since, apparently, Ultimate is a permanent state in the manga (for now), and not a transformation, I do see that it may be possible for Gohan to transform into Super Saiyan, thus effectively combining the transformation with the "state of being".

and that is cannon...oh it is GT nevermind...

No cannons here, thank you!

[Koitsukai]

if ultimate is a transformation then he wont be able to go super saiyan on top of it... but we have golden ozaru for example

Golden Oozaru is not an example of anything, as far as I'm concerned. The idea that it is "Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan" is not confirmed. We don't know what it is.

If you want to go ahead and assume Golden Oozaru is "Oozaru + Super Saiyan", probably based solely on the color of the fur that matches the color of the hair of Super Saiyan, go for it. Maybe we can infer that. But we don't know for sure if that's what's supposed to be. Heck, I don't remember anything even trying to explain what that form is.

Well, we've seen Vegeta turn ohzaru, then go golden ohzaru and then SS4. There's nothing more to it, really. Golden Ohzaru is SS... SS1, 2, 3? who knows, but it's SS.

[Thanos]

His "Ultimate" form seems to be treated and used much in the same way the god forms are--as stages to build up to if SSJ/SSJ2 aren't sufficient. In the Super Hero trailer, we see him transform into SSJ, but clearly his Ultimate stage is used at some point.

Originally I assumed he got weaker and lost access, therefore reverted to only being able to use SSJ forms. Perhaps that was the case, and now he's figured out how to use all three as a way to conserve energy? Or maybe he goes Ultimate first and then SSJ on top of it. If Ultimate = SSJG, maybe his version of SSJ is Ultimate + SSJ and therefore = SSJB (the equivalent, not necessarily in terms of power).

[Hugo Boss]

I’m also on the camp that ultimate can’t be combined with Super Saiyan, as it is seemingly useless to transform
further, by the Elder Kaioshin words. But I can see Gohan learning how to tap into god ki and that could result in some sort of Super Saiyan God-esque ultimate form.