Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[Seekeroftruth]

Many fans are burnt out and tired of saiyans. Since DB the show has been entirely the saiyan show with emphasis solely on saiyans with every other race being squeezed out. Many people in DB:Super have referred to it as the Goku and Vegeta show and dropped the series because their other favorite characters are useless.



Hell, even the transformation are lack luster with most of them being a recolour of the original super saiyan transformation.

[JulieYBM]

You could replace the Saiyans with humans or Namekians or any other type and I'd still be bored out of my mind. I'm here for characters, not shitty Toyo-tarou battle scenes strung together by a plot of varying quality.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the cartoon staff handle the next TV series. Their contributions are usually far more fun.

[Gaffer Tape]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "ruined." I'm obviously stating the obvious here, but "ruined" is fairly subjective. Have I personally found myself a bit put off over the years on the Saiyan/Super Saiyan/transformation focus? Definitely. Those concepts can and have been used well and to my satisfaction, but they're also not primarily what interests me in the series. Would I be happy if certain aspects of that had been scaled back at various points? Possibly. At the same time, I can't deny that DB became much more popular due to elements like that. It makes sense that those in charge would shift focus to what is popular. It annoys me that that is popular, but it clearly is. I'd say a decent majority of fans would not only argue that it didn't "ruin" the franchise but improved it, if not saved it.

[MasenkoHA]

I guess I don’t understand this criticism.

Goku is the main character. As soon as Toriyama decided to make him an alien from outer space of course Saiyans were going to be important. Like, what is the issue?

[super michael]

TC I hate to say this but in DBS Gotenks is anything but useful. He has only been in this fights:

Beerus = lose
Copy Vegeta = lose

That is all the battle has been in.

Then there is Goten and Trunks who struggled against a snake and got hurt from weak human poacher who has no power. Don't get me started all the time when their familys stopped them from training or joining any battles.

Those three are Saiyans.

True SSB is literally just SSJ but colored blue.

[PurestEvil]

Maybe if you’re a rabid Tien fan, it would have “ruined” it

[Zephyr]

The 'focus' on Saiyans is a partly a byproduct of focusing on Goku, the main character, who is a Saiyan. Naturally I guess you don't have to have stories about Saiyans just because of that fact, but I don't think the stories that have heavily involved them, their history, or their unique abilities have been particularly terrible.

Freeza's history with the Saiyans as a people set up some great character drama between himself and Goku on Namek. The flexibility in how the Super Saiyan state could be evolved proved to be a pretty cool backdrop for exploring how Goku and Vegeta differ as martial artists (Goku's way was better; Goku's son used Goku's way, and won the match at the end). Super Saiyan 3 is a great visual gag imo, and does well to subvert the two-in-a-row plot beat of "new Saiyan stage saves the day" for Dragon Ball's closing arc.

And even then, it's not like having Saiyans being "The Powerhouses" precludes fighters from other species from playing a role. Kuririn was present for much of Namek. Not to mention the Tournament of Power, which had many non-Saiyans on the Universe 7 team, with two of the final three members of the team being non-Saiyans (and one of those two being the MVP).

Ultra Instinct shows how you can and will probably still have "transformations" even without them necessarily being tied to being a Saiyan. But also, since Goku is the main character, it's likely he'll be the one to step up to that plate and achieve it, so you'll still have a Saiyan being the one doing it, I guess.

I dunno. I see people saying all the time that the "franchise was/is being ruined", or "its potential is being wasted", by focusing on Goku, the main character. Or focusing on fights, or for there being tournaments all the time, in a martial arts story set in a martial arts universe for martial artists. And that's fair I guess, everyone's free to see potential in different places. I just think people also gotta remember that Dragon Ball isn't the only fictional work/universe that exists, and there's plenty of other stuff out there if you want something other than Dragon Ball. It's hard to fault something for being itself.

[Anonymous Friend]

I guess I don’t understand this criticism.

Goku is the main character. As soon as Toriyama decided to make him an alien from outer space of course Saiyans were going to be important. Like, what is the issue?

This right here. The series has always been about a saiyan and his growing power. We just got a reasoning behind his power once his brother showed up and even more power saiyans showed up later on.

Over all, the series has always been about progressively stronger and stronger characters. And various saiyans on the home team increasing their power to combat them. Super seemed to try to rein it in and provide different and weird powers to deal with, this this will always be a Tim Taylor-styled "moar power!" series. And anything else will be a serious departure of from what the show's about.

[kemuri07]

The problem isn't necessarily with the Saiyans itself; the problem is the power creep that has occured throughout the franchise. This essentially locks the show in very predictable patterns: because only Saiyans can effectively move the plot, it almost inevitably becomes the Goku and Vegeta show as they are the only ones who have any real impact on the show.

Compare that to One Piece: One Piece is ultimately a show about Luffy getting stronger and becoming Pirate King, and yet the smart thing the series does is that it allows every single member of Luffy's pirate crew to effect the narrative in some way. One Piece stays novel because its constantly shifting and changing the status quo. Dragon Ball is defined by that status quo, and suffers for it.

[Cursed Lemon]

The problem is that there are only 1.5 hero characters in the show that matter.

[MasenkoHA]

The problem is when the show tried to put less powerful characters back in the plot ala Tournament of Powers fans complained about that.

Kind of feels like fans deserve the Saiyan Power Hour.

[Pafupafu]

The problem isn't necessarily with the Saiyans itself; the problem is the power creep that has occured throughout the franchise. This essentially locks the show in very predictable patterns: because only Saiyans can effectively move the plot, it almost inevitably becomes the Goku and Vegeta show as they are the only ones who have any real impact on the show.

Great point. The story has been consistently about overcoming an overpowering threat and only Goku and Vegeta have been in any position to do so. This is also a limitation of the Super series itself in that we know end of Z’s scenarios so the general threat is mitigated and all stakes are low.

Give us post-Z with real stakes, at least. That could allow for other characters old and new to grow in impact.

And in relation to the topic itself, the main character is a Saiyan and the mythology to date has been Saiyan-heavy so to ignore it moving forward would be inconsistent to the story. That’s also why new characters shouldn’t be tethered to Saiyan history as it is just treading the same waters.

[ABED]

The Saiyans that have been around for decades? This post makes it seem like this is a relatively new problem.

[MasenkoHA]

I’m just at a loss at what kind of argument people are trying to make. Didn’t fans get pissy when 17 was able to keep up with Super Saiyan Blue Goku? Do they want characters who can keep up with the Saiyans or not? The Tournament of Power gives an ensemble of fighters and fans complained about that.


Do people just expect Kuririn to be the one to defeat the Big Bad? Like it’s still Goku’s show and it’s always been. If anything Dragon Ball Super has been a lot better at letting other characters shine compared to parts of the original Dragon Ball and Z.

[MyVisionity]

The focus will remain right where it is until they decide to move the story forward by replacing Vegeta or introducing a new race. But they are more interested in maintaining the status quo, so the story will not truly move forward.

[kemuri07]

Do people just expect Kuririn to be the one to defeat the Big Bad? Like it’s still Goku’s show and it’s always been. If anything Dragon Ball Super has been a lot better at letting other characters shine compared to parts of the original Dragon Ball and Z.

That's not the point. that's why I use One Piece as an example of a show/manga that does this better: Luffy is the main character and everything revolves around him, but the show does an exceptional job of making every other character not him just as relevant through proper power balancing as well as throwing the Straw Hats through a variety of different situations that make the most of each individual character skils. And the way that One Piece does this is very natural.

Dragon Ball, particularly, Super, is goddamn horrible at this. Every scenario is essentially the same no matter what, hence people's frustrations with the "Goku problem" And when the show does try to highlight other characters, it cheeses it hoping that you'll ignore the fact that somehow 17 is now GOAT for no other reason other than he's a popular character, and hoping nostalgia will be enough.

The problem is not Goku beating the bad guy. The problem is that only Goku and Vegeta are allowed any decent development--and it is fucking dull.

[ABED]

One Piece is s completely different genre and as far as I know, it's cast can't destroy solar systems if they wanted. Luffy is the lead, but the nature of pirate stories means that each character serves a specific function that no one man could do. It's not like DB where the way to win is overpowering ones opponent.

17 didn't win bc he was the greatest of all the fighters. He won by default after the two strongest took down the big bad.

The problem is that only Goku and Vegeta are allowed any decent development--and it is fucking dull.

That's not true at all. Gohan's development in the tournament of power was a highlight.

[Vijay]

The problem isn't necessarily with the Saiyans itself; the problem is the power creep that has occured throughout the franchise. This essentially locks the show in very predictable patterns: because only Saiyans can effectively move the plot, it almost inevitably becomes the Goku and Vegeta show as they are the only ones who have any real impact on the show.

Great point. The story has been consistently about overcoming an overpowering threat and only Goku and Vegeta have been in any position to do so. This is also a limitation of the Super series itself in that we know end of Z’s scenarios so the general threat is mitigated and all stakes are low.

Give us post-Z with real stakes, at least. That could allow for other characters old and new to grow in impact.

And in relation to the topic itself, the main character is a Saiyan and the mythology to date has been Saiyan-heavy so to ignore it moving forward would be inconsistent to the story. That’s also why new characters shouldn’t be tethered to Saiyan history as it is just treading the same waters.

I actually wouldnt mind Old Kai potential unlock power-up for Tien, Krillin

Or Piccolo fusing with few Fighting-type Namekians eventually attaining God-mode thereby keeping up with Saiyans of dbs

Toriyama kept upping power-levels with Frieza Arc, then Cell & Majin Boo was on whole new level. But its his narration style thay kept things together

Funnily dbgt tried fixing this by makin Goku small only to realize its goin nowhere with such formula (ratings etc) & finally got Rildo/Boo, and SSJ4 Goku liftin building feats.

Dbs or Toyo however embraced whole over-powring concept like a kid to ice-crean & (over) indulges with various pallete swap/God forms

And in both cases, they fmbled cuz its the narration

[MasenkoHA]

That's not true at all. Gohan's development in the tournament of power was a highlight.

This. And I can’t stress how amazing it is Super addressed fans complaints with Gohan’s development in late Z and rectified it in a believable way that felt natural for the character but hey he didn’t become Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 5 Ultra Mega Superior Instinct Gohan and knocked the entire tournament out so not good enough!

For all of Super’s many many many shortcomings and flaws Gohan’s character arc isn’t one of them.

[Cursed Lemon]

The problem is when the show tried to put less powerful characters back in the plot ala Tournament of Powers fans complained about that.

[ᶜᶦᵗᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ ⁿᵉᵉᵈᵉᵈ]